Author Topic: Multi-classing  (Read 5496 times)

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2011, 10:00:00 pm »


               I stand corrected...hmmm.  Gotta recheck my books, looks like I have some 3.5 in my 3.0 pile *bleh*

3.0 Ranger implementation in NWN still misses the Archery aspect.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par WebShaman, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2011, 10:30:27 pm »


               

Lowlander wrote...

Cat's grace is NOT part of the 3.0 Ranger spell list.

Except im pretty sure some additional comercial book for 3.0 added it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Elhanan

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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2011, 10:33:24 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

I stand corrected...hmmm. Gotta recheck my books, looks like I have some 3.5 in my 3.0 pile *bleh*

3.0 Ranger implementation in NWN still misses the Archery aspect.


How so? The NWN1 Ranger has full BAB, and gets up to +5 dmg from FE bonus, plus STR if Mighty is used. Add even more FE bonuses and BoE during Epic, and the Ranger seems to doing fairly well in archery, as well as melee, IMO. It does require investment in the Ranger, but that can be a decent arguement in support of the class itself.

And to keep this on topic, as mentioned I enjoy mixing this one with Rog, and perhaps a pinch of Ftr for even more archer goodness. While this may never be as powerful as the AA builds, it is quite versatile and durable.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2011, 10:34:46 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

3.0 Ranger implementation in NWN still misses the Archery aspect.


What Achery aspect. I didn't see any special Archery ability for 3.0 Rangers missing from NWN, but I could have missed it.

Elhanan wrote...

How so? The NWN1 Ranger has full BAB, and
gets up to +5 dmg from FE bonus, plus STR if Mighty is used. Add even
more FE bonuses and BoE during Epic, and the Ranger seems to doing
fairly well in archery, as well as melee, IMO. It does require
investment in the Ranger, but that can be a decent arguement in support
of the class itself.


Agree. I used a Ranger in my recent replay of HotU.  Defense of  Lith My'athar from the gate towers was great fun with a Bow. FE cover most of HotU creatures, and I was getting +5 +2d6 damage from Ranger abilities. That is an average of 12 = 23 AA levels.  Not bad at all.  Rangers are Awesome...

But what he seemed to indicate is that 3.0 Ranger had some Archery specific benefits that were left out in NWN, but I don't know of any.  But 3.5E Ranger again has this...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2011, 10:57:53 pm »


               Yes correct, WebShaman (and me too in the archery statement) did confused 3.5 rulebook with 3.0.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2011, 11:35:02 pm »


               Well, it is the comparison that sort of hurts, I guess.  3.5 Ranger just gets more.

Note that I do like the Ranger in NWN, btw.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2011, 12:42:14 am »


               3.5 Rangers get a ridiculous increase in abilities in what was already a good class. IMO they are over the top. But then 3.5 IMO looks over the top, so you can't really compare it without context.

They just went bonkers with 3.5. Check out a Swashbuckler/Duelist with combat insight and every point of intelligence bonus will give you 1 AC and 2 points of weapon damage, because the feat and class feature stack.  So 18 Int would give you 4 AC, and +8 to damage...

In the context of 3.0, Bioware got the NWN Ranger just about bang on, and it is a very good class, in 3.5 it is bonkers, just like the rest of 3.5 IMO.

If we got the 3.5 Ranger in NWN it would have been out of place.

3.5 was just one of many things I didn't like about NWN2.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2011, 02:08:16 pm »


               Yeah, 3.5 rules are pretty out there.  No doubt about it.  Don't get me started about NWN2.  Though I do like the Party possession system.

I prefer Pathfinder, myself.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2011, 10:39:40 pm »


               Pathfinder does look pretty good.  Like a more sane 3.5. For those who think multi-classing has gone overboard it also seems to reward staying in one class much longer.

I would definitely be interested in a Pathfinder if CRPG.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2011, 01:53:55 pm »


               Pathfinder NWN fer teh win!!!!!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Magical Master

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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2011, 06:09:19 am »


               Curious what people think about the following quote (from World of Warcraft):

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be
effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.


Basically, Blizzard decided to do the equivalent of giving Shadowdancers HiPS at level 1...but then mandating they take Shadowdancer for the next 10 levels.  They thought having HiPS made it feel like you were playing a Shadowdancer sooner and that was an important feeling to have...but realized that allowing anyone to take 1 level of Shadowdancer for it would be problematic.

So, using the HiPS for Shadowdancer as an example (since that seems to be a focus), which idea do people prefer and why?

1. Unlimited HiPS at level 1 but a mandated x levels in the class.

2. Unlimited HiPS at level x.

3. Limited uses of HiPS that scales with level progression, up to unlimited uses at level x.

x would probably be somewhere between 5 and 10 in this case.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Magical Master, 23 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Elhanan

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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2011, 08:40:10 am »


               Personally, I believe that HiPS should be a Feat available for anyone that meets prereqs to be agreed upon in the game, as I dislike PrC;s as a rule. The prereqs should be somewhat more difficult to gain, and possibly aquired only between 11th+ Lvl. IMO.

That said, HiPS does have a standard in place and should be allowed in the game as is. The problem I have seen discussed the most is spamming of the ability in m/p, so perhaps this should be limited by the Techies as a patch, and eliminated as an item effect.

True Seeing seems to operate more powerfully than the rules intended, and should be restricted again by the Techies in some agreed upon matter.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ffbj

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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2011, 02:15:27 pm »


               A number of fixes to hips involve a cool down period so you can't spam it.  I put it on a item, a cloak, so if you want to use it it is rather limited x/times per day, and you can't be wearing your +3 cloak of fortification at the same time.  Though I did give it some extra hide.
The WoW approach is ok I suppose since they do see it as a problem, basically they just reverse the process since you will be required to level up in that class, though it seems a bit bass akwards to me.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2011, 02:24:15 pm »


               I personally hate the WoW method - it is soley geared for a MMO type of gamestyle.

I do not like that type of gamestyle.

DA, and DA2 have really gone in this direction, and I don't like that.  4ed went in that direction, and I don't like that either.

I intensely dislike "cooldown" type of abilities.  Too much like WoW MMO stuff.

I would prefer to see abilities like HiPS, Dev Crit, etc, to be X/Day abilities, with increases in uses tied to levels taken in whatever classes that use it as a main ability.

Chalk me up as Old School here.  I want my D&D back!  Long live Pathfinder!

I do sort of hear what Elhanan is saying, though.  But leaning too much towards just Feats is going in the WoW MMO tree-style stuff, IMHO.  I tend to like the Feat, Ability, Skill thing that D&D had going (and that Pathfinder uses).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane

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« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2011, 03:17:57 pm »


               

Magical Master wrote...

So, using the HiPS for Shadowdancer as an example (since that seems to be a focus), which idea do people prefer and why?

1. Unlimited HiPS at level 1 but a mandated x levels in the class.

2. Unlimited HiPS at level x.

3. Limited uses of HiPS that scales with level progression, up to unlimited uses at level x.

x would probably be somewhere between 5 and 10 in this case.


Since HIPS is only a problem during PvP, and I dislike PvP and rarely engage in it, I don't believe it needs to be changed at all. On servers where PvP is prevalent the staff can add scripting to "fix" HIPS as they feel necessary. If balance is the goal, then True Seeing should also be "fixed", since it is much more powerful than HIPS. 

As has already been pointed out, HIPS isn't a feat that you can select at character creation, but requires a substantial investment in skill points and feats on the part of the character for at least 7 levels to achieve.  That first level of SD isn't a gimme, you have to earn it.