Multi-classing

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MrZork wrote...

I disagree that some classes are "special" in that they require such dedication that that class can only be single-classed. It seems pretty arbitrary to decide (for instance) that a monk requires more exclusive dedication than a wizard does. If it's the role-play issue that seems "off" somehow, I can see that to an extent, but it's not really any less realistic than a chaotic neutral Rogue/Champion of Torm. I think what happens is that people associate a particular archetype with a class and forget that other people might not be thinking only in terms of that archetype. For instance, many people see monks as the class for characters who are any sort of martial artist characters, and to them it might make perfect sense that their ninja character learns some sorcery or that their combative druid merged his martial skills with those of other creatures (e.g. shifted forms).

Well both classes have some multiclassing restriction by dnd rules (though monk doesnt in 3.0, its in 3.5). However, these rules do not forbidden to take other class but if they do it they cant progress in monk again. Paladin (even in 3.0) too, though if he commit an evil act then he also loses some of his abilities (with some exception is if he takes Blackguard later). BUUUT since WotC want to earn money, they made a special addon books that brings new prestige classes that strictly says, if monk takes this class then he can still progress in his class without any restrictions. So in the end its not so hot and personally its really unfriendly feature and I wouldnt set it up.

Lowlander wrote...

HIPS is hugely overrated and
completely nulified with true seeing. Also you need to consider the
character as a whole one small piece of things. You may get HIPs with
the first level of SD, but so what, you have to be at minimum a level 8
character for that.

And you forget that you can take only 3 classes so taking just one lvl of SD may be kind of unadvantaging, cos he doesnt have UMD, neither he can see traps of DC 36 and more.


Really, i often find peoples arguing about overpowered abilities/classes lacking the main building understanding. The same goes for HCRP admins whose disabling these abilities. They dont want powergamer on their server, but instead they are making their module only more and more restricted for everyone else. Powergamers actually like restricted modules.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 juillet 2011 - 02:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Pls try and remember that for a large part, Bioware was told what to implement. As I recall, this is the reason that Heal and Harm went into the game with many knowing they were overpowered as offensive choices. Without my books handy, I venture a guess this is why some feats like Blinding Speed made it into the game as is.

Where Bioware became my heroes is they elevated the 3E Ranger to a decent class. They granted the class a stable FE bonus, healing spells at lower lvls, Cat's Grace, higher caster DC, and possibly more. The 3E version was the busted one. And the NWN1 Ranger does not appear to be front-loaded.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I personally am a Ranger fan.  However, unfortunately Bioware did "gimp" it a bit.

I would have vastly preferred the ability to possess the Animal Companion much like a Mage can its Familiar, for example.  Also, there is the Archery thing...and they didn't implement all the spells of the Ranger spell list as it should have been done (we will not even go into Blackguard and Assassin here...bleh).

And it is a bit "front loaded", what with the dual-wielding thing.  However, it does tend to be somewhat balanced in comparison to other classes.

It is MHO that classes (and PrCs) should grant abilities and bonuses in direct relation with the amount of levels placed in them (like WM, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, etc).

As such, HiPS should have been a x/Day ability wherein x is based on levels taken, up to level 10, where it then becomes unlimited times a day.  This, IMHO, would then be incentive to keep taking levels in SD.

True Seeing should not totally make HiPS useless, IMHO.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
 And you forget that you can take only 3 classes so taking just one lvl of SD may be kind of unadvantaging, cos he doesnt have UMD, neither he can see traps of DC 36 and more.

I also mentioned previously that one level of SD also gives you Zero BAB, Zero Will save as well, and yes it eats up a class as well. There is significant loss for one lack luster/over-rated ability. I really wonder why so many get unraveled by SD/HIPS. Something to complain about when bored I guess.

The only builds that seem cheesy to me,  are the ones that change alignment to include two classes that were never meant to be together. Say Monk/Barbarian for example....

But skill saves, one level of SD for HIPS are just what goes into normal character building in NWN. Certainly a lot less cheesy than popping up the debug console and giving your character unlimited funds and some magic items. :innocent:
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 19 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Certainly a lot less cheesy than popping up the debug console and giving your character unlimited funds and some magic items. :innocent:

'> Lets flamewar begin!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xardex]

               Fight in PvP against whatever / SD 1, and you'll see that its about as cheesy as it can get. Not even true seeing helps you against HIPS, they just keep hitting you and you can do much about it.

True seeing actually makes all stealth useless except the hips spam.

Hips, true seeing, skill dumbing, active feat spam... the stupidest things that exist in nwn. Luckily nowadays servers could fix these, even add timers for stuff like knockdown and stealth, but do they?

No, they just put up a few guidelines and when someone does something wrong they go around swinging their banhammer blindly, often hitting those that broke no rules aswell as those that did.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xardex, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I personally am a Ranger fan. However, unfortunately Bioware did "gimp" it a bit.

I would have vastly preferred the ability to possess the Animal Companion much like a Mage can its Familiar, for example. Also, there is the Archery thing...and they didn't implement all the spells of the Ranger spell list as it should have been done (we will not even go into Blackguard and Assassin here...bleh).

And it is a bit "front loaded", what with the dual-wielding thing.  However, it does tend to be somewhat balanced in comparison to other classes.

It is MHO that classes (and PrCs) should grant abilities and bonuses in direct relation with the amount of levels placed in them (like WM, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, etc).

As such, HiPS should have been a x/Day ability wherein x is based on levels taken, up to level 10, where it then becomes unlimited times a day.  This, IMHO, would then be incentive to keep taking levels in SD.

True Seeing should not totally make HiPS useless, IMHO.

The possession of the Companion is not a bad notion, but one I would prefer was given to the Druid. And the NWN1 Ranger makes a terrific archer with the FE choices; even better when m/c with Rog, Ftr, etc.

I do not have access to my 3E books currently, but seem to recall Bioware improving the choices; not gimping them. The 3E Ranger had healing spells at higher Spell lvls which made them weakened, did not have Cat's Grace at all, and made caster strength at 1/2 Rgr lvl (same for Paladin too, I believe). If there is a list of omitted spells, I am not opposed to seeing them again.

And while some may salivate at the DW implentation, it is lost when wearing medium or heavy armors. Plus, I seem to remember that DW is the weakest of the attack forms (ie; S&S, 2H); pls correct me if I am wrong.

Of the flaws that may be in NWN1, a great many of them can be attributed to the powers behind 3E; not Bioware.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

I also mentioned previously that one level of SD also gives you Zero BAB, Zero Will save as well, and yes it eats up a class as well. There is significant loss for one lack luster/over-rated ability. I really wonder why so many get unraveled by SD/HIPS. Something to complain about when bored I guess.

Most of which is bypassed when taking SD in Epic lvls. But as one must wait until then, the penalties you mentioned are seemingly the price of impatience.

The only builds that seem cheesy to me,  are the ones that change alignment to include two classes that were never meant to be together. Say Monk/Barbarian for example....

Alignments are the problem; not m/c restricted classes, IMO. On the old TV show Kung Fu, there was a great example of such a design on one episode; a loner known for his strength and rage. While my short term memory may be taking a hit with time, the older things stick well.

Personally, I avoid Dev Crit like an allergen; think it should offer another Crit multiplier like the WM ability. I much rather see foes fall from high dmg than from failed ST and broken rule design; again, not a Bioware flaw, I believe.

The thing is that only the server rules should set the standard for CC; not our own opinions. And if we do not care for them, avoid those builds, or go elsewhere.

But skill saves, one level of SD for HIPS are just what goes into normal character building in NWN. Certainly a lot less cheesy than popping up the debug console and giving your character unlimited funds and some magic items. :innocent:

Which is not done on PW's; just Solo play. Maybe it is not my short term memory loss after all....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

Elhanan wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

I personally am a Ranger fan. However, unfortunately Bioware did "gimp" it a bit.

I would have vastly preferred the ability to possess the Animal Companion much like a Mage can its Familiar, for example. Also, there is the Archery thing...and they didn't implement all the spells of the Ranger spell list as it should have been done (we will not even go into Blackguard and Assassin here...bleh).

And it is a bit "front loaded", what with the dual-wielding thing.  However, it does tend to be somewhat balanced in comparison to other classes.

It is MHO that classes (and PrCs) should grant abilities and bonuses in direct relation with the amount of levels placed in them (like WM, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, etc).

As such, HiPS should have been a x/Day ability wherein x is based on levels taken, up to level 10, where it then becomes unlimited times a day.  This, IMHO, would then be incentive to keep taking levels in SD.

True Seeing should not totally make HiPS useless, IMHO.

The possession of the Companion is not a bad notion, but one I would prefer was given to the Druid. And the NWN1 Ranger makes a terrific archer with the FE choices; even better when m/c with Rog, Ftr, etc.

I do not have access to my 3E books currently, but seem to recall Bioware improving the choices; not gimping them. The 3E Ranger had healing spells at higher Spell lvls which made them weakened, did not have Cat's Grace at all, and made caster strength at 1/2 Rgr lvl (same for Paladin too, I believe). If there is a list of omitted spells, I am not opposed to seeing them again.

And while some may salivate at the DW implentation, it is lost when wearing medium or heavy armors. Plus, I seem to remember that DW is the weakest of the attack forms (ie; S&S, 2H); pls correct me if I am wrong.

Of the flaws that may be in NWN1, a great many of them can be attributed to the powers behind 3E; not Bioware.

I wish the possession of Familiars was given to every type of Summons, Companions, etc.  That would have been great.

As for the Ranger Spell List (3.0), here it is :

1ST-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal: Makes one animal your friend.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Detect Animals or Plants: Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Detect Snares and Pits: Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entangle: Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius circle.
Hide from Animals: Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.
Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Magic Fang: One natural weapon of subject creature gets +1 on
attack and damage rolls.
Pass without Trace: One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from
specified energy type.
Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
Summon Nature’s Ally I: Calls animal to fight for you.

2ND-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Barkskin: Grants +2 (or higher) enhancement to natural armor.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Hold Animal: Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from
one kind of energy.
Snare: Creates a magic booby trap.
Speak with Plants: You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Spike Growth: Creatures in area take 1d4 damage, may be slowed.
Summon Nature’s Ally II: Calls animal to fight for you.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.

3RD-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Command Plants: Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.
Diminish Plants: Reduces size or blights growth of normal plants.
Magic Fang, Greater: One natural weapon of subject creature gets
+1/three caster levels on attack and damage rolls (max +5).
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies
venom in or on subject.
Plant Growth: Grows vegetation, improves crops.
Reduce Animal: Shrinks one willing animal.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Summon Nature’s Ally III: Calls animal to fight for you.
Tree Shape: You look exactly like a tree for 1 hour/level.
Water Walk: Subject treads on water as if solid.

4TH-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Animal Growth: One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Commune with Nature: Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Nondetection M: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV: Calls animal to fight for you.
Tree Stride: Step from one tree to another far away.

As one can PLAINLY see, Cat's Grace is a normal spell in the Ranger Spell List.  What isn't is Blood Thirst (which, in it's vanilla form, is pretty useless).

DW from the Ranger is a great way to do a Dual-Wielding MMM (Multiclassed Melee Mage). 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...
Most of which is bypassed when taking SD in Epic lvls. But as one must wait until then, the penalties you mentioned are seemingly the price of impatience.

Which, makes whining about getting HIPS so "early"  even more  silly, if you are waiting for level 21+. You have to think about the character as a whole not one ability in isolation. Either there are significant tradeoffs for taking it early (level or less tradeoffs and a much longer wait (21+). My point is as always. You are not getting HIPS at level 1, you character as a whole is either getting at level 8 at the earliest and there will be penalties, or waiting a very long time (21+) for less penalties (you are still burning a class).

Alignments are the problem; not m/c restricted classes, IMO.

I really think it makes sense that some classes are mutually exclusive, like being an Ascetic monk and a Hedonistic Bard, or a Paladin that is all about code of Honor and an Assassin who is all about dishonorable murder. Alignment may be a blunt instrument, but I think it is both obvious and reasonable what they are trying to achieve.

Personally, I avoid Dev Crit like an allergen; think it should offer another Crit multiplier like the WM ability. I much rather see foes fall from high dmg than from failed ST and broken rule design; again, not a Bioware flaw, I believe.

Same here, It thought the exact same thing. DevCrit is a big let down, I want more damage, not a saving throw vs death. I am not sure but it also looks like DevCrit doesn't trigger a cleave.  I also thought another multiplier was the way to go, but I expect that might be a bit unbalanced for Scythe WMs with x6 crits...

The thing is that only the server rules should set the standard for CC; not our own opinions. And if we do not care for them, avoid those builds, or go elsewhere.

Obvious. Or you can try to influence management...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...


I wish the possession of Familiars was given to every type of Summons, Companions, etc.  That would have been great.

As for the Ranger Spell List (3.0), here it is :

1ST-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal: Makes one animal your friend.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Detect Animals or Plants: Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Detect Snares and Pits: Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entangle: Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius circle.
Hide from Animals: Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.
Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Magic Fang: One natural weapon of subject creature gets +1 on
attack and damage rolls.
Pass without Trace: One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from
specified energy type.
Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
Summon Nature’s Ally I: Calls animal to fight for you.

2ND-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Barkskin: Grants +2 (or higher) enhancement to natural armor.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Hold Animal: Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from
one kind of energy.
Snare: Creates a magic booby trap.
Speak with Plants: You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Spike Growth: Creatures in area take 1d4 damage, may be slowed.
Summon Nature’s Ally II: Calls animal to fight for you.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.

3RD-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Command Plants: Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.
Diminish Plants: Reduces size or blights growth of normal plants.
Magic Fang, Greater: One natural weapon of subject creature gets
+1/three caster levels on attack and damage rolls (max +5).
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies
venom in or on subject.
Plant Growth: Grows vegetation, improves crops.
Reduce Animal: Shrinks one willing animal.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Summon Nature’s Ally III: Calls animal to fight for you.
Tree Shape: You look exactly like a tree for 1 hour/level.
Water Walk: Subject treads on water as if solid.

4TH-LEVEL RANGER SPELLS

Animal Growth: One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Commune with Nature: Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Nondetection M: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV: Calls animal to fight for you.
Tree Stride: Step from one tree to another far away.

As one can PLAINLY see, Cat's Grace is a normal spell in the Ranger Spell List.  What isn't is Blood Thirst (which, in it's vanilla form, is pretty useless).

DW from the Ranger is a great way to do a Dual-Wielding MMM (Multiclassed Melee Mage). 

Not to argue, but are you certain these were the 3E spells; not 3.5? 3E Cat's Grace had 1d4+1 bonus, and this one lists +4 DEX.

My point was that the NWN1 Ranger was repaired before 3.5 hit the shelves.
 
And your MM seemed to create it's own chaos; m/c of any kind nonwithstanding.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               3.0 SRD - http://www.opengamin...on.org/srd.html shows that Ranger has much better spell selection in these rules
3.5 SRD - http://www.d20srd.org

in both rules the ranger has some of the unimplemented abilities and facts:
half caster lvl
ability to choose ranged/dual-wield style feats
much more spells which are however impractical in NWN as its not PnP
much better animal companios and larger list of them

As far as devast concerned, even official rules agrees its overpowered and offers two special rules for 1 rolls. One of them is to roll again and only if 1 is rolled again its devastating critical. But still it doesnt solve the fact that in game like NWN where can play not just fighters but mages too, if every monster has a fortitude to withstand rdd builds, then its useless to use a fort-based spells on it. In PnP this is covered all the time by the DM who can change the fortitude on the fly and disallow fighter to kill enemy with single blow and allow mage to kill enemy with single killing spell.

In the end I must agree with someone else who said that here, that its epic levels which unbalanced everything. Up to lvl 20 its much more balanced, but epic levels where BAB and saves are constant etc. etc...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:09 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               I enjoy the possibilities skill dumping and abusing a few levels of a class can provide.  I like the versatility it offers a character in our world.  We have many builds that simply would not be feasible without skill dumping and exploiting a couple levels of a class.  We have many more that would be less interesting to play if they didn't have a few extra abilities as well.

Despite that, I have tried to build in many benefits for investing more levels in a class; so that multi-classing is not an obvious given.  Even at that, it's hard to compete with 2 feats and 1 level of SD, or 1 level of monk for WIS AC bonus, tumble and discipline dumps, or 1 level of ranger to add full discipline and all the trap skills for your level39 wizard (talk about infringing on base class territory and stealing their identity).

For me, NWN would not have had the longevity it has had if there were tighter restrictions on skill dumping, and requirements for how many levels of a class a player must have.  Anyhow, it's good we can control as much of the game as we can via DMing or scripting.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

WebShaman wrote...

As for the Ranger Spell List (3.0), here it is :

As one can PLAINLY see, Cat's Grace is a normal spell in the Ranger Spell List.  What isn't is Blood Thirst (which, in it's vanilla form, is pretty useless).

Sure they can see that, except that is NOT the official WOC DnD 3.0, Ranger spell list. That is the 3.5E list.

Cat's grace is NOT part of the 3.0 Ranger spell list.
Actual 3.0 Ranger list (even more gimpy than NWN spell list):

1st Level:
Alarm.
Animal Friendship.
Delay Poison.
Detect Animals or Plants.
Detect Snares and Pits.
Entangle.
Magic Fang.
Pass without Trace.
Read Magic.
Resist Elements.
Speak with Animals.
Summon Nature’s Ally I. Calls animal to fight for you.

2nd Level:
Animal Messenger.
Cure Light Wounds.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law.
Hold Animal.
Protection from Elements.
Sleep.
Snare.
Speak with Plants.
Summon Nature’s Ally II.

3rd Level:
Control Plants.
Cure Moderate Wounds.
Diminish Plants.
Greater Magic Fang.
Neutralize Poison.
Plant Growth.
Remove Disease.
Summon Nature’s Ally III.
Tree Shape.
Water Walk.

4th Level:
Cure Serious Wounds.
Freedom of Movement.
Nondetection.
Polymorph Self.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV.
Tree Stride.
Wind Wall.

NWN1 Rangers are NOT gimped compared to 3.0E version it was based on, in fact it is better. Especially when you consider FE bonus damage doesn't apply to Crit Immunes in 3.0E, but does in NWN and if anything the NWN spell list is better than than the official 3.0E version and caster level is full Ranger level instead of half...

NWN Rangers are better than 3.0 Rangers. Nothing to complain about here.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 19 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

The only builds that seem cheesy to me,  are the ones that change alignment to include two classes that were never meant to be together. Say Monk/Barbarian for example....

And who is to say they were not meant to be together? WotC approved NWN as is, so, given the feasibility of alignment change in the module, Monk/Barbarian is meant to be same as any other possible class combo unless you can prove otherwise.