Multi-classing

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Failed.Bard wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Sorry but I don't like peoples who tells others how to play the game. Why I do that? Cos im powergamer and I play to be best player on the server, to have best equip, to be first who solo some dungeon, etc. etc. and why I wouldnt make a powerbuild if I know how to do that?

And btw, all those PW builders who are doing some balance changes in oder to disable powerbuilding are completely wrong. Even if you disallow third class, even if you disallow skill points saving, there still be a way how to make a character that will be powerbuilded and beat your character all the time.

  PnP D&D doesn't allow the saving of skill points from level to level.  The only reason I allow one to be saved, is that the incredibly flawed default NWN skill system doesn't allow putting half points into skills.  That's not "telling others how to play the game", it's correctly implimenting the existing rules into the game, which Bioware chose not to do.

WotC approved NWN as is, hence NWN is as official as it gets for a PC game based on DnD. Unless you have proof of the contrary, NWN is wad and your changes are no fixes but rather customizations of the game, akin to house rules in PnP.

Oh, a lot of people seem to ignore the point that NWN is not PnP.

  As for the rest of your power-building nonsense, D&D isn't about beating the other players.

Who says that? DnD is what you make of it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

grom56 wrote...

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Since you asked. :^)

I don't understand why anyone worries about how someone else builds their character. I couldn't care less what's on your character's stat sheet. The only thing I'm concerned about when playing MP is whether or not I enjoy RP'ing with you and your character. If I do, then I'll seek you out and interact with you whenever possible. If I don't, I'll avoid you. It's that simple for me. And I'm using "your" in the general sense, not meaning you specifically.

In as long as you buy me beer, I'm gonna like you. And I mean you as in you specifically. Now, where's my beer?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

grom56 wrote...

I wanted to bring up something that's a bit of a sore spot with me and see what others thought.   I know what alot of my fellow players over at World-of-Greyhawk think, but figured I'd toss it out here, as this place reaches such a wider pool of players.

  I'm not a fan of Multi-classing one or two levels of a class just to get a nice feat or skill dump.  That maybe my old style PnP days talking, but to grab one level of Shadow Dancer for the HiPS or a level of Rogue in epics to max out UMD, seems wrong to me.  It doesn't feel true to the char.

 What's you all's take on this?   Do you try to build for a feel, or is anything fair in love, war and NWN's?  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

I do build depending on what I want and am allowed to get. The inspiring idea can be that of combining specific game mechanics or developing a certain character idea or both. Most often in the end the character creeps into the mechanic or the mechanic into the character to give a complete final result.

Anyhow, let anyone build as they want. I'm not new to going for the less optimal choices in favor of adherence to proper character's portrayal. If a certain type of multiclassing feels wrong for your take on your character's development , don't do it. You have got to like what you are gonna play to really enjoy it.

That said, as food for thought, I invite you not to look at classes as anything more than a game mechanic to be used to achieve the desired result of proper character portrayal. You might find multiclassing to be less despiseful that way. And aye, DnD 3.0 and NWN ain't ADnD. That is probably where all your "troubles" come from.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

In as long as you buy me beer, I'm gonna like you. And I mean you as in you specifically. Now, where's my beer?

It's in my fridge. If you want it, come and get it. I hope you like Guinness Draught.  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN DM]

               My campaigns go to about 10th level maximum... house rule is you must take at least 2 levels in any class you have by the time you hit 8th level or assume high XP penalties.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               I don't allow shadow-dancers, though you can get an item with hips, you need to be a 10th level rogue, though someone with good umd  could use it.  Thing is its uses increase for every 4 levels of rogue.  I make a number of special items that get better as you improve in the class.  Also my fatigue system awards no fatigue points for prestige classes, which I feel are mostly over-powered.
This though is not really crippling, it just means a pure fighting class will have more fatigue than a fighter/prestige class.  So they will be able to stay in there longer, in melee, without tiring.
I know this is not specifically what you are talking about: (holding over skill points) but it is a way to add rewards to pure classes.  For example: I made Frost on Mountain a greataxe that gives 1 extra point of frost damage for every 5 levels of barbarian, so it does not matter if a person takes umd to be able to use it's full power since only barbarian levels affect it.  I made a number of these and you can vary them any way you want. They are on the vault btw under 5 magic weapons.
Also the duration of the effect is based on levels in the class.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_grom56]

               Thanks everyone, good replies and interesting stuff!  Convos like this are why I enjoy the forums so much.

Oh, and it's understood that NWN is not PnP by any means.   I guess it's still a part of my make-up though.   Must be some of that Old dog/New trick stuff.

 Again thanks everyone, I enjoyed your replies.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I have no problem with character optimization - some do it, some do not.  I mostly do.  I get a measure of enjoyment just out of character creation and optimization.

However, I do despise how some classes and PrCs have been done - I really do not think that the first level of a class should give the best "benefits" of that class.  It just does not make any sense, either realistically or game-wise.

IMHO, benefits of a class should increase with the amount invested into that class.  Let us take Shadowdancer as an example.  Why HiPS was given at first level in unlimited form, is beyond me.  Why not limit the amount that one can do, and tie it to the investment in the class?  At some point, then one could make it unlimited (much like Druids and Wildshape, Barbarian Rage, etc).

Compare that with Weaponmaster.  Why are these two so utterly different in design?  One gives you the best benefits at level 1, the other makes you have to invest into it to get the most out of it.

It seems to me that whoever was overseeing the balance and design office at WotC was in his cups on the day that Shadowdancer came over his desk.

So I guess you can put me in the Funky corner on this one.

I mean, imagine if there was unlimited multi-classing in NWN.  Imagine that you could take as many different classes as you wished, up to the level limit (40 different classes, etc).  It would result (or could, depending on the optimization and skill of the player) in a one man army, not needing any other classes to support it.  Loaded up with just about every skill and ability that one can get, what could possibly hope to provide a challenge for this mega-multi-character?

I personally have nothing against multi-classing in general.  I do have my pet peeves against some forms of MCing, due to the past history of some classes - meaning that they should not be MCing with other classes that clash with the docterne or flavor of that class.  Monks should not be MCing, and IMHO, neither should Paladins.  These types of classes are normally ones where the character is dedicated to the class itself, in a way that most other classes are not.  Of course, a bit of old school is coming through here in me, obviously.

Get off my lawn!

*blinks*

What?

Oh yeah, on with the topic.

Well, D&D changed, and MCing became "teh Thing" - so yeah.  Well, until WotC went totally off their rocker and vomited out 4ed.  Bleh.  Next thing you know, they will throw out everything.  In 5ed, you need nothing - the character sheet is blank.  Just let the DM do everything, or the game designer.  You just sit back, and enjoy...yeah.  The story.  No rolls required.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I mean, imagine if there was unlimited multi-classing in NWN.  Imagine that you could take as many different classes as you wished, up to the level limit (40 different classes, etc).  It would result (or could, depending on the optimization and skill of the player) in a one man army, not needing any other classes to support it.  Loaded up with just about every skill and ability that one can get, what could possibly hope to provide a challenge for this mega-multi-character?
.

Actually there are diminishing returns. You could likely build a more powerful character if you could go 4 classes, but the 5th likely wouldn't add much and  some time after that it would probably start degrading.

if you had 40 first level classes you would most likely suck at everything. A bunch of low level  spell casting levels are quite ineffective spell selection/scaling and DC. If you mix a bunch of non fighter base classes in pre-epic, your BAB would get wrecked.  Even a whole bunch of low level  fighter classes, you would miss fighter WS/EWS, Ranger Bane, DwD DR, etc...

But three classes seems a reasonable choice that allows a lot of fun customization.

Everyone likes to pick on SD and HIPS, but really it was a PnP design where this wouldn't be nearly as abusable with a DM moderating everything.  In NWN true seeing totally disables the SD class if that is all you get out of it. I have played SD, but probably wont' again, it isn't worth the adition hit to BAB/additional borking of Will saves in my Fighter/Rogue builds to be able to stealth near combat.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

WebShaman wrote...
I really do not think that the first level of a class should give the best "benefits" of that class.  It just does not make any sense, either realistically or game-wise.

IMHO, benefits of a class should increase with the amount invested into that class.

Apologies to Web for "uncontexting" this comment, but it seems to illuminate one of the most key reasons why the MCing convention we employ in NWN can appear exploitive in several cases.  It is exactly the first level benefits that have been plundered to the point where it is easy (almost automatic) to gain an unreasonable advantage by electing one of the "1-level wonders".

But with such a readily-customizable mod repertoire available, it is comforting to recognize how others of similar mindset have modified the game mechanics to balance the basic class interactions of MCing.  IMO, the gradually increasing advantages of ALL classes. whether standard or prestige, is the ideal way to sculpt the game.  Fortunately, neither PM achieves crit immunity nor RDD grabs the triple immunity bonanza at class level 1. 

So, regardless of the personal ethic involved, we are all forced to play the hand dealt us by vanilla NWN unless it becomes reinterpreted by those who care enough to put forth the effort.

And kudos to those designers for caring enough to do it. '>

Great discussion idea OP, reminiscent of NWN debates during its infancy.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

Lowlander wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

I mean, imagine if there was unlimited multi-classing in NWN.  Imagine that you could take as many different classes as you wished, up to the level limit (40 different classes, etc).  It would result (or could, depending on the optimization and skill of the player) in a one man army, not needing any other classes to support it.  Loaded up with just about every skill and ability that one can get, what could possibly hope to provide a challenge for this mega-multi-character?
.

Actually there are diminishing returns. You could likely build a more powerful character if you could go 4 classes, but the 5th likely wouldn't add much and  some time after that it would probably start degrading.

if you had 40 first level classes you would most likely suck at everything. A bunch of low level  spell casting levels are quite ineffective spell selection/scaling and DC. If you mix a bunch of non fighter base classes in pre-epic, your BAB would get wrecked.  Even a whole bunch of low level  fighter classes, you would miss fighter WS/EWS, Ranger Bane, DwD DR, etc...

But three classes seems a reasonable choice that allows a lot of fun customization.

Everyone likes to pick on SD and HIPS, but really it was a PnP design where this wouldn't be nearly as abusable with a DM moderating everything.  In NWN true seeing totally disables the SD class if that is all you get out of it. I have played SD, but probably wont' again, it isn't worth the adition hit to BAB/additional borking of Will saves in my Fighter/Rogue builds to be able to stealth near combat.

We can leave spellcasting out for obvious reasons - being that spellcasting is balanced with the level progression.  1 level in a spellcasting class does not give one access to all the spells, obviously.

That leaves mostly combat and stealth builds here.  Being that BaB classes add to one another, our 40th level character with 40 classes will have a high BaB (we take a lot of high BaB classes, suck in the benefits, and then go to the next...).

Of course, there are those class features that we will miss, but then, there sure are a lot of things we will get.  One would have to add something like the PRC to get enough additional classes, of course.  For example, all the additional classes and material from D&D (before 4ed).

In NWN, True Seeing does not necessarily disable the SD class.  One can modify True Seeing to avoid this.  In Vanilla, however, it does.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               I am a fan of the NWN multiclassing system, for the most part. I agree with some earlier comments that some of the classes lend themselves to cheesing in a way that leaves me a little uncomfortable. Obviously, those are just design decisions and aren't right or wrong in some universal sense.

But, IMO, there would be less cheese if most of the really good feats for a class shouldn't come at first level and those that are reasonable to have at first level should scale with class level. E.g., I probably would have left HiPS for at least level 2 of shadowdancer (give darkvision instead at level 1), preferably level 4; monk AC should be +WIS bonus up to monk level, and evasion delayed at least until level 2; access to UMD not available at first level for any class; paladin divine grace is +CHA bonus to saves up to paladin level; etc. Those are the sorts of restrictions that discourage using those classes for cheese without really having much impact on characters who choose those classes as primary classes.

Of course, the downside is that people may shy away from PWs that they decide make it too hard to play the class combos that they like. I know when I see a "minumin five pre-epic levels for any class" or similar restriction on a PW's FAQ, the tendency is to keep looking elsewhere. (Same for PWs that have a long list of nerfed spells...)

I agree with Webshaman that some prestige classes are pretty uber. But, many are designed pretty reasonably. E.g. RDD and PM are slow to power up (to the point that some consider them gimped). And, it really seems like Bioware designed many of the prestige classes and feats for enviroments that were much lower in magic than the ones they gave us in any of the main campaigns. I mean, Blinding Speed? An epic feat and 25+ DEX to get ten rounds of haste once per day? Really? Similarly for the various class feats that allow one to summon really wimpy help (by the time the character gets the feat), etc.

I disagree that some classes are "special" in that they require such dedication that that class can only be single-classed. It seems pretty arbitrary to decide (for instance) that a monk requires more exclusive dedication than a wizard does. If it's the role-play issue that seems "off" somehow, I can see that to an extent, but it's not really any less realistic than a chaotic neutral Rogue/Champion of Torm. I think what happens is that people associate a particular archetype with a class and forget that other people might not be thinking only in terms of that archetype. For instance, many people see monks as the class for characters who are any sort of martial artist characters, and to them it might make perfect sense that their ninja character learns some sorcery or that their combative druid merged his martial skills with those of other creatures (e.g. shifted forms).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

WebShaman wrote...
In NWN, True Seeing does not necessarily disable the SD class.  One can modify True Seeing to avoid this.  In Vanilla, however, it does.

Obviously you can nerf true seeing, and you can also nerf HIPS, or customize in many ways that eliminate the complaints at SD/HIPS,  but the Vanilla game setup is what people were complaining about, so the True Seeing caveat applies.

The point is the main class everyone gets their panties in bunch over, is the SD with HIPS and 1st level.  HIPS is hugely overrated and completely nulified with true seeing. Also you need to consider the character as a whole one small piece of things. You may get HIPs with the first level of SD, but so what, you have to be at minimum a level 8 character for that.

I also don't get why people think all classes should deliver benefits on the exact same kind of progression. I find it funny people lump Paladins into classes that splash a few levels for max benefit, when they have a a great many class level based abilities as well spell casting that benefit for more and more levels. Why not complain about fighters. All you need is 4 fighter levels to get the fighters main benefit EWS?

NWN character building is clearly about Multi-classing there is no intent to make all classes best only if played to high levels, heck look at the Harper Scout. It only has 5 levels available.

MrZork wrote...

 E.g., I probably would have left HiPS for
at least level 2 of shadowdancer (give darkvision instead at level 1),
preferably level 4;

Level 2 is really no difference, make it 10 if you really want to be annoying. But really HIPS is really overrated and little to get bent out of shape over.

All the classes should be used to gain any advantage they provide, that is why they exist. If you don't like a combination, don't use it.   This IMO is just skill point saving. Don't like it, don't do it, but it hardly seems like something to complain about other people doing. It is part of the rules of the game.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

I agree with Webshaman that some prestige classes are pretty uber. But, many are designed pretty reasonably. E.g. RDD and PM are slow to power up (to the point that some consider them gimped).

You gotta be kidding me. RDD in 10 levels grants the equivalent of 16 epic feats (8 Gr STR, 2 Gr CON, 2 Gr INT, 2 Gr CHA, 2 AS) plus immunities (fire, paralysis, sleep). Aye, that looks so slow to power up and, oh man, so ungraciously gimped. Wow
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

I agree with Webshaman that some prestige classes are pretty uber. But, many are designed pretty reasonably. E.g. RDD and PM are slow to power up (to the point that some consider them gimped).

You gotta be kidding me. RDD in 10 levels grants the equivalent of 16 epic feats (8 Gr STR, 2 Gr CON, 2 Gr INT, 2 Gr CHA, 2 AS) plus immunities (fire, paralysis, sleep). Aye, that looks so slow to power up and, oh man, so ungraciously gimped. Wow

Yeah, after I posted that, I realized I had rewritten the paragraph that originally said the classes power up gradually (as opposed to the classes that get much of their best stuff at level one) and mangled it. Personally, I agree that RDD is a pretty good PrC, though the requirements (needing levels of bard or sorc) can steer many away from it.