Multi-classing

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Spank, spank, spank!

That has got to hurt! '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Kail Pendragon:

how does taking SD 1 to get HiPS become untrue to character if the character is supposed to be able to meld into shadows?

If a Fighter 39/Wizard 1 was able to cast Epic Spells due to 1 Wizard level, would you think that was true to the character?

Absolutely yes. If the character's concept is that of a warrior that casts epic spells and Wiz 1 is all I need to make it happen and FTR 39/Wiz 1 is the best class combo to get all the features to build a proper character portrayal in game, then it is extremely true to character. classes are just a bundle of features thrown together with a couple of limits here and there (paladin's code of honor, alignment restrictions, etc.) they are not character at all.

Personally, that doesn’t seem to make any sense to me as an accomplished spellcaster is represented by more than 1 spellcaster level.  Likewise, SD level 1 (or monk/paladin/whatever level 1) doesn’t seem to represent the mastery of melding into shadows.  Aka, it’s true to the character to take SD levels…but taking 1 SD level is like taking 1 level of Wizard to cast Epic Warding.

That's a game mechanic concern. It has nothing to do with trueness to character.

Kail Pendragon: 

Well, actually there are some, like Grom above, it doesn't come down to that. Those like him wouldn't adopt specific multiclassing practices because of the feel of "wrogness" that they get from it.

 
Then, no offense to Grom, he’s going to get smashed into the ground without a significant gear advantage or a larger party than intended on a world where the accepted concept is different.

Aye. He's gonna have a more challenging gaming experience if the balance is set in order to take in account for some build combos. I don't think that stops him from being true to what he feels is right for himself (Grom plays on WoG btw), but I'd better let Grom speak for himself.

To show just how large the gap is, let’s look at a 40 fighter versus a 12 fighter/3 rogue/25 weapon master under default rules... 

Old school nostalgic fellas apart, FTR 40 has basically no reason to be in NWN and it's pointless to make such comparisons. They are simply misleading. You've got another 2 class slots to be filled, use them. Make comparisons between different multiclass builds geared towards different playing strategies (damage dealer, damage soaker, damage avoider, etc.) if you wanna get something meaningful. Otherwise I'll put a cleric with 11 wisdom in the equation and say it sucks vs something built with a minimum of cleverness. Come on! When one willingly chooses not to use game feautures he has no right to lament about the drawbacks.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

I was actually quesitoning why any builder of SP mod would nerf monk Wis bonus for clerics

You were actually being offtopic and irrelevant at the offtopic point too. Nice combo you pulled.

Oh, and it all started with your unfounded and false claims about an alleged lack of fair and clean play in the SP environment which is simply an impossibility.

BTW, you are still being pedantically off topic. Try another time, maybe you'll succed in understanding what this topic is actually about.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Assuming enough gear for +12 to Dex and Wisdom, that's 9 Dex modifier and 19 Wisdom modifier.

You are really artifically stacking the deck here. +12 dex and  especially +12 wis items, really? How many SP modules have that, and on what items?

In fact even in high level module I have played, it was a trade between an amulet of wisdom, or an amulet of natural armor.  I played monks several times and I started to think they designed the items like this on purpose so monks couldn't benefit from a big wisdom boost with amulet of natural armor.

So I will take my  natural armor +12, thank you very much. Where does that leave us again?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Oh, and it all started with your unfounded and false claims about an alleged lack of fair and clean play in the SP environment which is simply an impossibility.

You are confused. I said SP module designers need not be any more concerned about HIPS spammers than other exploiters/cheaters/console jockeys.  Yes you then had an unbalanced reaction to the word cheaters, but I wasn't alleging anything,  just using a common term for people who "alter games to their advantage".  Just consider it shorthand, it is commonly used for that activity, and  you know it. So take chill pill and deal with it.

The point is you can never stop exploiters in a SP game and it isn't worth a designers time to bother.  They only have to design for people who aren't going exploit.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 29 juillet 2011 - 02:24 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Oh, and it all started with your unfounded and false claims about an alleged lack of fair and clean play in the SP environment which is simply an impossibility.

You are confused. I said SP module designers need not be any more concerned about HIPS spammers than other exploiters/cheaters/console jockeys.  Yes you then had an unbalanced reaction to the word cheaters, but I wasn't alleging anything,  just using a common term for people who "alter games to their advantage".  Just consider it shorthand, it is commonly used for that activity, and  you know it. So take chill pill and deal with it.

The point is you can never stop exploiters in a SP game and it is worth a designers time to bother.  They only have to design for people who aren't going exploit.

The point is that it's still off topic '> And that anyhow, there are designers that try to stop some behaviours, no matter how useless and what a waste of time it seems to you or me (and look, I agree it's a waste of time to go and care about HiPS spamming... wanna do it, do it, who cares?).

So let's forget HiPS and Wis AC and module designers wasting their time on idiotic stuff they would better not give a darn about (Aielund can easily be played without the EMS if on eso desires btw) and let's get back to the merits or lack thereof of multiclassing, shall we.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...
So let's forget HiPS and Wis AC and module designers wasting their time on idiotic stuff they would better not give a darn about (Aielund can easily be played without the EMS if on eso desires btw) and let's get back to the merits or lack thereof of multiclassing, shall we.

I agree, if I wasn't pounced on that, would have ended. Someone else said that Designers had to sweat HIPS spamers when designing SP modules, the above was part of my disagreement.

Yes, there is a fake_ems to disable. I don't like ems because for the end user, it is completely undocumented.

Back to multi-classing.

As I said before I don't like builds that use alignment changes. Even if you manage find all the potential alignment changes in a module and use them at the right time to give you the alignment you want, this is pretty much an exploit IMO.

I don't like extreme back loaded builds that take 1 level of something at 40 for massive skill dumps. It isn't so much that I consider them extreme power building. On the contrary they strike me as extreme stupid building. Why would deprive yourself of all those skills for your whole career, only to take them all when you are about to retire.

Maybe there are PWs where you start at level 40, then those builds make sense. In which case I wouldn't consider those builds sutpid, but I would consider the PWs lame an have zero interest in them.

Other than that whatever you can do. The more synergy you can extract from your build the better.  Building characters in NWN is great fun, that is why we have had such a great variety of builds in the old ECB forums. Meaningful character building is something I really found missing in DA.

Heck I think I enjoyed reading some of Grizzled Dwarflords builds, more than playing some not so great modules.

The only limit on multiclassing is local rules and imagination.  I don't see why people want to hold it back.  Building characters in an enjoyable element of NWN.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 29 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Magical Master wrote...

Kail Pendragon:

how does taking SD 1 to get HiPS become untrue to character if the character is supposed to be able to meld into shadows?

If a Fighter 39/Wizard 1 was able to cast Epic Spells due to 1 Wizard level, would you think that was true to the character?

Personally, that doesn’t seem to make any sense to me as an accomplished spellcaster is represented by more than 1 spellcaster level.  Likewise, SD level 1 (or monk/paladin/whatever level 1) doesn’t seem to represent the mastery of melding into shadows.  Aka, it’s true to the character to take SD levels…but taking 1 SD level is like taking 1 level of Wizard to cast Epic Warding.

Seems like that comparison between the two class combos isn't really an argument against NWN multiclassing as much as it is an argument against the design of the shadowdancer class. Wizards can't take epic spells with one level (and can't take epic warding even with an epic wizard level - that fighter will have to have saved up 34 skill points to spend on spellcraft, which is expensive for a 2 skill point/level, non-INT build). I'd say that's a good class design decision. The fact that shadowdancers get HiPS at level one is why it seems like a character is gaining "mastery" over something so easily, more so than the fact that a multiclassed character gets whatever a shadowdancer gets at level one. It might be true that NWN shouldn't give HiPS at the first level of SD, but that's more a class design issue than a multiclassing issue.

(BTW, as I mentioned earlier, I happen to think some aspects of the various classes might be a bit better with some tweaking. But, I don't really have a problem with the multiclassing, per se.)

I have to agree with Kail et alia that these comparisons between a pure level 40 classX character and a multiclassed character seem misplaced. There is no reason to think, for example, that a Fighter 40 should be able to go toe-to-toe with some other class combo, even in pure melee. The game is designed to allow players to make characters with more than one class - particularly when there are 40 levels to play with - and a character who chooses not to do that may be choosing to build a less effective character. We would probably all agree that building a fighter with no points in discipline won't usually be as effective as one with it. But, no one is saying that it's a problem with the skill system that the character with no discipline points won't fair as well as one with a higher discipline skill. We would just say, "So, yeah, put some points in discipline and help strengthen that character." It seems like it isn't much different to say, "So, yeah, put some levels in a class and help strengthen that character."
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

As I said before I don't like builds that use alignment changes. Even if you manage find all the potential alignment changes in a module and use them at the right time to give you the alignment you want, this is pretty much an exploit IMO.

What if alignment changing means were very easily available? Just to stay IC, say tithing a small amount of gold to a proper temple to get an alignment shift; would you still feel it as an exploit?

I don't like extreme back loaded builds that take 1 level of something at 40 for massive skill dumps. It isn't so much that I consider them extreme power building. On the contrary they strike me as extreme stupid building. Why would deprive yourself of all those skills for your whole career, only to take them all when you are about to retire.

Maybe there are PWs where you start at level 40, then those builds make sense. In which case I wouldn't consider those builds sutpid, but I would consider the PWs lame an have zero interest in them.

PvP worlds are mostly or completely played at lvl 40. Those are the typical environments justifying the lvl 40 single skilldump. I guess there are modules built for lvl 40 characters, in that case they don't really differ from a module built for a lesser level.

Anyhow, I concur that single late level skilldumps are not the wisest building choice if one has to play the build from the ground up. I'd rather give up a little final (lvl 40) power in exchange for enhanced playability.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

MrZork wrote...

Magical Master wrote...

Kail Pendragon:

how does taking SD 1 to get HiPS become untrue to character if the character is supposed to be able to meld into shadows?

Personally, that doesn’t seem to make any sense to me as an accomplished spellcaster is represented by more than 1 spellcaster level.  Likewise, SD level 1 (or monk/paladin/whatever level 1) doesn’t seem to represent the mastery of melding into shadows.  Aka, it’s true to the character to take SD levels…but taking 1 SD level is like taking 1 level of Wizard to cast Epic Warding.

Seems like that comparison between the two class combos isn't really an argument against NWN multiclassing as much as it is an argument against the design of the shadowdancer class. Wizards can't take epic spells with one level (and can't take epic warding even with an epic wizard level - that fighter will have to have saved up 34 skill points to spend on spellcraft, which is expensive for a 2 skill point/level, non-INT build). I'd say that's a good class design decision. The fact that shadowdancers get HiPS at level one is why it seems like a character is gaining "mastery" over something so easily, more so than the fact that a multiclassed character gets whatever a shadowdancer gets at level one. It might be true that NWN shouldn't give HiPS at the first level of SD, but that's more a class design issue than a multiclassing issue.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I'd like to point out something about the SD class since it seems to be used so much as an example. HIPS is much maligned because of a bug/feature that disables the action cue of all hostile creatures within sight of the character every time you hit your stealth button. But as has been pointed out before, HIPS really isn't all that powerful a feat, especially around adversaries with True Seeing active. At least the game designers must not have thought so, and that's why they gave it at first level. 

Just because you take 1 level of SD and can now use HIPS doesn't mean you've gained "mastery" of the SD class. SD gives you some sort of added benefit every level, for the first 10 levels. Every level you take gives you a feat, or an upgrade to summons, concealment, damage reduction, or armor class. It takes a minimum of 10 SD levels to gain "mastery" of the class itself. That's a minimum of 18 total character levels to achieve that mastery. When you consider this, HIPS doesn't seem to be "all that".

Of course, this is only relevant if we're talking RP. In a PvP focused environment, the HIPS bug/feature can wreak havoc if used by someone cheesy enough to spam it. Just like Knockdown. ;^)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Old school nostalgic fellas apart, FTR 40 has basically no reason to be in NWN and it's pointless to make such comparisons. They are simply misleading. You've got another 2 class slots to be filled, use them

Agreed and even for old school nostalgia, there was multi-class in 1st edition, but not for Humans which had a pretty aggravating Dual classing ability. Demi-humans could multiclass (even to triple classing). I still remember my very first AD&D character. He was an Elven Fighter/Magic User.  After that I had affinity to Dwarven Fighter/Thief. I don't remember actually ever playing a single class character in 1st edition.

Back then you would generally only be 1 level behind when multiclassing. So My buddy the Ranger was 8th level, I was Ftr7/Thief7. I could fight like a full fighter, backstab like a full thief, full traps/locks/stealth...  Seems quite advantageous to me.

So I don't get why old school 1st Edition players are any more put off of by multiclassing, it was there pretty extensively from the beginning. Unless they are thinking of Basic/Expert when Dwarf/Elf were classes. Then there was no multi-classing.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 29 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Old school nostalgic fellas apart, FTR 40 has basically no reason to be in NWN and it's pointless to make such comparisons. They are simply misleading. You've got another 2 class slots to be filled, use them

Agreed and even for old school nostalgia, there was multi-class in 1st edition, but not for Humans which had a pretty aggravating Dual classing ability. Demi-humans could multiclass (even to triple classing). I still remember my very first AD&D character. He was an Elven Fighter/Magic User.  After that I had affinity to Dwarven Fighter/Thief. I don't remember actually ever playing a single class character in 1st edition.

Back then you would generally only be 1 level behind when multiclassing. So My buddy the Ranger was 8th level, I was Ftr7/Thief7. I could fight like a full fighter, backstab like a full thief, full traps/locks/stealth...  Seems quite advantageous to me.

It was advantageous because of the exponential growth of XP requirements to lvl up which helped not losing too many levels compared to single classed characters and because one would get the best of both worlds (or of all wworlds with triple classing) getting to select the most advantageous THAC0, saves, etc. There were class level limits for demihumans though which woul deventually balance the equation...

So I don't get why old school 1st Edition players are any more put off of by multiclassing, it was there pretty extensively from the beginning. Unless they are thinking of Basic/Expert when Dwarf/Elf were classes. Then there was no multi-classing.

And even then Elf was basically a FTR/MU.
Ah, Elf FTR/MU was my favourite combo and I have fond memories of adventures involving the search for mithril armor. Great stuff.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...
It was advantageous because of the exponential growth of XP requirements to lvl up which helped not losing too many levels compared to single classed characters and because one would get the best of both worlds (or of all wworlds with triple classing) getting to select the most advantageous THAC0, saves, etc. There were class level limits for demihumans though which woul deventually balance the equation...

Everyone could be unlimited Thief levels and Dwaves could get decent fighter levels and I think my DM gave more levels for higher primary attributes. In practice I don't think I ever hit the limit on a Dwarven Fighter/Thief.

Point being there was signifcant multi-classing advantages to be had even in old school AD&D 1st edition.

I still play many Dwaver fighter Rogues, much like and because I enjoyed the old 1E versions.  I see 3E as an natural extension/sanitizing of those old often strange rules.

Anyone remember the old 1st ed Bard, which was bizarre human Triple class (restart at 1st each time). No one every played one of these. There was just too much starting over to be practical.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 29 juillet 2011 - 05:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               1st edition Bard was a mess, anyone with some sanity wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. But aye, multiclassing was pretty much canon in ADnD and the lvl caps were often either practically out of reach or extended and multiclassing was one of the key advantages of playing a demihuman. Same as now it's generally self crippling not to multiclass, the same hold true back then with demihumans.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Magical Master]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Absolutely yes. If the character's concept is that of a warrior that casts epic spells and Wiz 1 is all I need to make it happen and FTR 39/Wiz 1 is the best class combo to get all the features to build a proper character portrayal in game, then it is extremely true to character. classes are just a bundle of features thrown together with a couple of limits here and there (paladin's code of honor, alignment restrictions, etc.) they are not character at all.

See, that underlined/bolded bit is the problem.  What's the difference between "character portrayal" and "proper character portrayal?"  Because the "spellcaster" Fighter 39/Wizard 1 seems to be the former and not the latter.  In short, I don't agree that classes are just a bundle of features with "limits."  They represent, at a minimum, time and training in that field.  And 1 level of Wizard doesn't seem like a "proper" amount of time to be casting Epic Spells.

Note that has nothing to do with balance, a Fighter 39/Wizard 1 might actually be an extremely weak character in a given world, it has to do with the concept.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Old school nostalgic fellas apart, FTR 40 has basically no reason to be in NWN and it's pointless to make such comparisons.

You've got another 2 class slots to be filled, use them.

How about Sorcerer 40?

I think this illustates the fundamental difference between you and Grom (and myself).  You view classes as something to be used, we view them as something to be played.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Otherwise I'll put a cleric with 11 wisdom in the equation and say it sucks vs something built with a minimum of cleverness. Come on!

To quote you, come on!  An optimized 40 fighter is nothing like giving a cleric 11 wisdom and I think you know that.

Lowlander wrote...

You are really artifically stacking the deck here. +12 dex and 
especially +12 wis items, really? How many SP modules have that, and on
what items?

....

So I will take my  natural armor +12, thank you very much. Where does that leave us again?

I think you're actually being serious...

I said "assuming enough gear for +12 to Dex and Wisdom."  Slot-wise, there's...

Chest
Helm
Gloves/Bracers
Cloak
Ring 1
Ring 2
Boots
Belt
Amulet

There's also technically weapon and potentially an off-hand weapon and shield, but let's discount those for a moment.  That's 9 slots not counting those.  If you have 3 items with +4 Dex and three items with +4 Wisdom (which still leaves 3 slots for other stats/armor/whatever), that's +12 to Dex and Wisdom.  If you have +6 items, you only need four items, leaving 5 slots open.  Etc.  Stats stack in NWN.

Lowlander wrote...

I don't like extreme back loaded builds that take 1 level of something
at 40 for massive skill dumps. It isn't so much that I consider them
extreme power building. On the contrary they strike me as extreme stupid
building. Why would deprive yourself of all those skills for your whole
career, only to take them all when you are about to retire.

Maybe
there are PWs where you start at level 40, then those builds make
sense. In which case I wouldn't consider those builds sutpid, but I
would consider the PWs lame an have zero interest in them.

Many PWs start at level 1, go up to a max level (be it 20, 30, 40, or whatever) and then have PvM high end dungeons so you can keep playing your character at that point.  The level cap is not viewed as "retirement" at all.

Lowlander wrote...

The only limit on multiclassing is local rules and imagination.  I don't
see why people want to hold it back.  Building characters in an
enjoyable element of NWN.

I agree building characters is an enjoyable element, but that has nothing to do with the previous sentence.  We want to "hold it back" because we think creating a more balanced environment promotes *more* viable builds and creates a better gaming experience.

MrZork wrote...

There is no reason to think, for example, that a Fighter 40 should be
able to go toe-to-toe with some other class combo, even in pure melee.

Try going toe-to-toe with a well built Fighter 40 in pure melee with a Wizard 14/Sorcerer 13/Druid 13 and let me know how that goes.

Lowlander wrote...

Back then you would generally only be 1 level behind when multiclassing.
So My buddy the Ranger was 8th level, I was Ftr7/Thief7. I could fight
like a full fighter, backstab like a full thief, full
traps/locks/stealth...  Seems quite advantageous to me.

And that makes sense.  You're not quite as good at fighting as a Fighter 8, you're not quite as good at thievery as a Thief 8, but you are able to do both pretty well.  You give up some advantage for not being pure class but gain other abilities and skills.  That's a conceptual trade-off for multi-classing.