Multi-classing

[Legacy_grom56]

               I wanted to bring up something that's a bit of a sore spot with me and see what others thought.   I know what alot of my fellow players over at World-of-Greyhawk think, but figured I'd toss it out here, as this place reaches such a wider pool of players.

  I'm not a fan of Multi-classing one or two levels of a class just to get a nice feat or skill dump.  That maybe my old style PnP days talking, but to grab one level of Shadow Dancer for the HiPS or a level of Rogue in epics to max out UMD, seems wrong to me.  It doesn't feel true to the char.

 What's you all's take on this?   Do you try to build for a feel, or is anything fair in love, war and NWN's?  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               It depends on the world being played in, the group you are playing with and rules for the given situation.  

I myself do not like the Min/Max character creation tactic.  There are however worlds that give you no choice but to become a power builder or be left jumping back and forth from the death plane.  

I myself would rather play in a more RP type world where the characters match there stats.  The worlds are just few and far between.  

The nice thing about nwn however is that the game is what you make of it.   If you do not like one style of play you are free to go find a server that has the rules you like to play under.  If you can not find such a server, you are free to make your own and invite people of like mind to play with you.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               I dislike how NWN handles skills so much I scripted it in that you can't save more than one skill point at level up in my mod.  It was yet another area that bioware got completely wrong, that games before and after did right.
 Thankfully, as Lightfoot8 already said, the thing about NWN, that keeps people playing it after so many years, is that the things you don't like, there are tools available to fix.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               "It depends on the situation" is the short answer.

A few main categories might be PvM, PvP and RP, generally speaking.  Each has its own bias, character-developmentwise, that is.

Roleplaying would bias the design more towards a set of rules that were interconnected like a story.  In a case like that, dumping would be silly unless there were a substantial tie to an historical reason.  The fallen paladin comes to mind.  Not a dump really, but can easily lead toa n exploit.

From the description of your own personal bias, I am betting you enjoy the RP aspects much more than the powergaming ones.  Keep in mind that NWN is not PnP.  IMHO, it is worlds apart.  The PnP games we played (and still do) have nothing in common with a computer game like NWN other than the ruleset being used.  Top-notch DMs can simulate close to PnP sessions but it is totally different when you are staring into someones eyes than typing emotes on a keyboard.

PvM is more grey.  Playing as a powergamer means kills and not much more.  A powergamer could care less about solving puzzles or interacting with the environment or neutral NPCs and builds accordingly.  Here is where you will see the dumps and exploits, all in the name of creating a dominating character.  Yet, some PvM is more balanced and skewed to interface with questing, convos, spotting hidden access, etc... a more skill-oriented venture.  In a case like that, single level dumps would probably also seem inappropriate especially since it may impact the ethics of the rest of the party as well.

As far as coop goes, it would probably be wise to set up ground rules for such issues before engaging in a venture to assure the entire team is compatible,.. which exploits are acceptable to the group and which are taboo.

PvP is yet another philosphy onto itself.  Many times a build is designed to dominate a specific set of circumstances, like mage-killing or dueling a narrow specialty, like Imploders, for instance.  To do that is nothing more than number crunching using skill and class dumps as just part of the hexadecimel recipe to achieve an end.

It all really comes down to personal preference.  As my own personal example, developing UMD just makes the game more fun to play for me.  So if it is possible to develop that skill, I will build however I must to utilize that feature.  Does it matter whether it takes rogue, bard or assassin levels to achieve that for me?  Usually not. Of course, some builds just don't have room for a UMD class, but when they don't, there had better be some very entertaining aspect to playing it (like shifters) or I will lose interest, stuck in the mud without the versatility UMD would have brought to the adventure. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I am fine with the practice, though I generally prefer not to use it. The system is flawed as implemented, and is unable to give points in cross-class skills as the intended 3E design. Being able to save points for later enables a workaround to fix that problem.

And if a Player wishes to save 40+ points from every lvl to dump into a single lvl of Rog taken at the end of the build, that would seem to be points that are not invested during every playing lvl which creates it's own hardships. Just a guess, but I doubt there are many PW's which allow full 40 lvl designs at creation.

And it suggests to me that said Player must not love the Rogue as much as myself, for this class gains at least double the Skill pts for every lvl invested; would much rather take another class last if you are into that sort of thing. Not playing with UMD, Tumble, Search, Disarm Traps, Open Locks, etc until the end is it's own penalty, IMO.

If it does not break the rules of the server and it's Host, let the Players play. Pls do not try and restrict design freedom based on some other RP belief and POV; just do not use it yourselves.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

grom56 wrote...

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Since you asked. :^)

I don't understand why anyone worries about how someone else builds their character. I couldn't care less what's on your character's stat sheet. The only thing I'm concerned about when playing MP is whether or not I enjoy RP'ing with you and your character. If I do, then I'll seek you out and interact with you whenever possible. If I don't, I'll avoid you. It's that simple for me. And I'm using "your" in the general sense, not meaning you specifically.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Sorry but I don't like peoples who tells others how to play the game. Why I do that? Cos im powergamer and I play to be best player on the server, to have best equip, to be first who solo some dungeon, etc. etc. and why I wouldnt make a powerbuild if I know how to do that?

And btw, all those PW builders who are doing some balance changes in oder to disable powerbuilding are completely wrong. Even if you disallow third class, even if you disallow skill points saving, there still be a way how to make a character that will be powerbuilded and beat your character all the time.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
And btw, all those PW builders who are doing some balance changes in oder to disable powerbuilding are completely wrong. Even if you disallow third class, even if you disallow skill points saving, there still be a way how to make a character that will be powerbuilded and beat your character all the time.

As a builder whose server caters to extreme powerbuilding...I completely disagree. They aren't doing it to 'disable' powerbuilding, just to tame the most egregious examples of it - typically when they clash with common sense or disrupt suspension of disbelief. We make similar edits on HG, but to balance some of those egregious examples with other build options, to cater to players who DO enjoy powerbuilding, giving them more power builds to choose from.

You seem to be missing the larger goals of these targeted nerfs, be they for RP or balance reasons. By way of example, we don't ban splashing paladin - but we DO require you to be good to get the saves bonus, and we defer Perfect Health until 3rd level, to bring pally splashes slightly more in line with other build options. Those edits not only make sense from a RP perspective, but they open up MORE viable build options, by reducing the potency of one of the most powerful options (powergamers tend to see only the most powerful combination as 'viable'). Of course, sometimes this balancing will come in the form of a boost instead of a nerf - it all depends on the situation.

Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mad.Hatter]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Sorry but I don't like peoples who tells others how to play the game.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

And btw, all those PW builders who are doing some balance changes in oder to disable powerbuilding are completely wrong.

Dissonance for the win. you Shado0ow!

As for meaningful input to the dialog--I personally prefer "pure" builds but I appreciate the RP value of multiclassing. While some make no sense from an RP perspective (oh, I *was* a fighter my whole life but I found "Wizardry for Dummies" and decided to gitter done during that tavern break last week.), many create very rich characters.

For me, context is everything. You had better believe my single player and action PW characters are beasts. My RP PW or DM'd campaign characters are better suited to that environment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Sorry but I don't like peoples who tells others how to play the game. Why I do that? Cos im powergamer and I play to be best player on the server, to have best equip, to be first who solo some dungeon, etc. etc. and why I wouldnt make a powerbuild if I know how to do that?

And btw, all those PW builders who are doing some balance changes in oder to disable powerbuilding are completely wrong. Even if you disallow third class, even if you disallow skill points saving, there still be a way how to make a character that will be powerbuilded and beat your character all the time.

  PnP D&D doesn't allow the saving of skill points from level to level.  The only reason I allow one to be saved, is that the incredibly flawed default NWN skill system doesn't allow putting half points into skills.  That's not "telling others how to play the game", it's correctly implimenting the existing rules into the game, which Bioware chose not to do.
  Considering all your work on the community patch, which I had been under the impression was at least in part trying to bring the game more in line with the PnP rules, I'm actually quite surprised you would rant against someone bringing the game more in line with the rules on their own server.

  As for the rest of your power-building nonsense, D&D isn't about beating the other players.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               NWN is amazing because it can be played in many different styles.

It's also possible for one person to appreciate different styles of gameplay.

With my characters, most are very RP concept driven, and a few are total powerbuilds, but the concept driven still try to maximise their survivablity. I even have a "me" character.... (well actually I had a few , but I think I finally got it right now) ....

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Failed.Bard wrote...

As for the rest of your power-building nonsense, D&D isn't about beating the other players.

It is not cos its played in closed environment, but in NWN we got there various persistent modules with random peoples and you can play like that there cos they dont know you and mostly they dont even want to. I see that you dont like my gameplay style, thats ok you got right for it, just dont take it any personally please. How I play on servers has nothing to do with my submissions to community.


As for community patch, you are right that this is not correct and should be fixed and personally I would invite it too (because it would ruined all old powerbuilds and new one would have to be found) however there are more issues with it. First is technicall implementation which is except very unfriendly affecting module events which is bad thing to do and I would like to avoid it. Second as I already said in brackets, it would totally changed all builds on every server which would use it and mainly players wouldnt be very excited from it. An third, most servers would avoid the patch just for this change or say it bugfix if you want as its not so desired in the end.

EDIT: I understood the OP's post maybe wrong but I dont think that this is abou skill points saving (which I like btw) but tha powergaming. Even if not and its all about skill points saving - as I already said, since its possible to do and very advantaging, why wouldn't i do that? As far as its not in module design I dont like peoples that want me to stop doing that just cos they hate me or they are jealous.

And btw my best powerbuild I made ever dont uses skill points saving, it dont have even PM neither RDD and neither single level of Bard/Rogue or umd.

EDIT2: Ok seems that I didnt understood the OP post and overreacted then. Sorry for that.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
[EDIT: I understood the OP's post maybe wrong but I dont think that this is abou skill points saving (which I like btw) but tha powergaming. Even if not and its all about skill points saving - as I already said, since its possible to do and very advantaging, why wouldn't i do that? As far as its not in module design I dont like peoples that want me to stop doing that just cos they hate me or they are jealous.

ShaDoOoW, I think the OP merely stated his/her perspective on class skill dumps and how they don't seem to fit into roleplay situations.  All that was requested was a community sampling to compare different views about the subject. Neither the OP nor anyone else (in this thread anyway) has inferred that any single build style is right or wrong for anybody but themselves.

All of us here love you, ShaDoOoW.  How could we otherwise?  You are an NWN maniac like the rest of us! '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

grom56 wrote...

I'm not a fan of Multi-classing one or two levels of a class just to get a nice feat or skill dump.  That maybe my old style PnP days talking, but to grab one level of Shadow Dancer for the HiPS or a level of Rogue in epics to max out UMD, seems wrong to me.  It doesn't feel true to the char.

 What's you all's take on this?   Do you try to build for a feel, or is anything fair in love, war and NWN's?  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

When I played on a PW, I didn't have a clue about 99% of other player builds didn't care.  I had some offline chats with one person who min/maxed like crazy, but in game she was a great Role Player. Optimised builds and Role playing have no connection (negative or positive) in any way shape or form.

I do try to optimize my builds because I think good character building is half the fun of NWN. Why would I build weak unoptimized characters?  It doesn't matter where I play I am always going to build characters that are optimum for my take on local conditions. The PW I played on tried to gently discourage optimized builds with some claim that unoptimized one would win more DM favors (IMO that is just a different form of optimizaiton: sucking up to the DMs). I continued to build characters that made me happy and the DMs can bite me if they don't like it.

I get that some people think it is cheap having one level of SD for HIPs, but agian it does't bother me. They probably should have put it a few more levels in when designing the class, but what the heck it is Prestige class, you have to meet several requirements and be a certain overall class level before you take it anyway. Most PW should use a cooldown IMO to limite Hips abuse.

Skill dumps are no big deal. If I am a Fighter/Rogue (I am most of the time) taking say Fighter16/Rogue 4 pre epic. It only makes sense that I spread out Rogue levels and for mechanical reason take them around 7,12,17 and dump my skills. But really once I am a fighter/rogue you should probably be able to learn any skill from any class you know (Like NWN2 Able learner feat), if that was available you wouldn't need to save skill points. But as it is saving skill points means I am usually very behind on skills. It is a tradeoff.

When I think about AD&D 1st edition where I did most of my playing as a kid, it isn't skill dumps that seem silly, it is practically everything about Epic levels. Epic is just nuts. It is like Monty Hall on steroids. Devastating Critical, Epic DR, Epic Dodge, Self Concealment, Epic Skill focus (stealth in full plate)... This is also when + 12 swords with a rainbow of elemental damage usually come out as well.

IMO most everything about NWN feels fine to my AD&D sensibility until it hits Epic, then it just feels silly.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 18 juillet 2011 - 01:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sylrae]

               Hmm. Some good points.
Personally, I'm all for saving your skill points, but that's because I absolutely hate the D&D 3.x class/cross-class system. It would be alright if you always pais 1 per point once something became a class skill, but the current implementation bugs the hell out of me. It annoyed me when 3.0 came out, it still does, and it's one of the changes I like best about Pathfinder.

As for whether or not you should take a one-level dip to get broken abilities: The way I see it, if that one level dip is considerably better than one level in any other class, it's not the player's fault for taking it, it's the designer's fault for making that option too good. (and I say, nerf the class so the options are more competitive, or give everything else a boost instead.)