God Mode Cheat? (and another question)

[Legacy_Frith5]

               Removed my rant. '>

Removing myself from this idiotic discussion too.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Frith5, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               So, we have finally reached a consensus!  Nice to see that some are beginning to accept facts and are realizing that in a Closed SP Environment there is no cheating.

This thread was very constructive.

@ NWNDM - sorry I missed the connotations in your post.  My bad.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               BTW - the whole "deceive yourself" is being seen from the third person.  I hope those quoting such realize that.  In other words, a second person (observer) is making a judgement about your person, one you cannot see (or do not realize).  Thus, they are stating that you are deceiving yourself because you cannot see the truth about yourself AS PERTAINING TO THAT SECOND PERSON!

However, you are not *truly* deceiving yourself, as you are not aware of this!  In those quotes, one is being reprimanded for not being aware of this.

Instead, one is acting upon what one perceives, themselves.  Whether or not this is true, does not really matter in a Closed SP Environment, where there is no second person (observer) to take notice.

This does not exist in a Closed SP Environment, as there is no second person (observer) present.

I would very much like to see how one can explain how one succeeds in deceiving oneself.  How can you trick yourself?  It does not make any sense, whatsoever.  One can be in denial, sure.  But that is not self-deception.  One can consider oneself something that one is not (to a second person, observer) - but one is still not deceiving oneself here, not from one's own perception.  One may even consider one's own worth to be more than what another (observer, second person, whatever!) does, but that is NOT SELF-DECEPTION!

Deceiving oneself would require one to be simultaneously aware of the true state, but truly believing in another.  It contradicts itself.  One cannot simultaneously be two different states of being, be aware of it, and then decide one is the wrong one.  It would involve being dishonest.  One would be aware that it is WRONG!  This is not deception.

If one is not aware of the true state, then one cannot deceive oneself about it.  Instead, one is in a state of unawareness.  It is a state of not knowing.  This does not involve deception.  There is no dishonesty involved here.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

WebShaman wrote...

BTW - the whole "deceive yourself" is being seen from the third person.  I hope those quoting such realize that.  In other words, a second person (observer) is making a judgement about your person, one you cannot see (or do not realize).  Thus, they are stating that you are deceiving yourself because you cannot see the truth about yourself AS PERTAINING TO THAT SECOND PERSON!

However, you are not *truly* deceiving yourself, as you are not aware of this!  In those quotes, one is being reprimanded for not being aware of this.

Instead, one is acting upon what one perceives, themselves.  Whether or not this is true, does not really matter in a Closed SP Environment, where there is no second person (observer) to take notice.

This does not exist in a Closed SP Environment, as there is no second person (observer) present.

I would very much like to see how one can explain how one succeeds in deceiving oneself.  How can you trick yourself?  It does not make any sense, whatsoever.  One can be in denial, sure.  But that is not self-deception.  One can consider oneself something that one is not (to a second person, observer) - but one is still not deceiving oneself here, not from one's own perception.  One may even consider one's own worth to be more than what another (observer, second person, whatever!) does, but that is NOT SELF-DECEPTION!

Deceiving oneself would require one to be simultaneously aware of the true state, but truly believing in another.  It contradicts itself.  One cannot simultaneously be two different states of being, be aware of it, and then decide one is the wrong one.  It would involve being dishonest.  One would be aware that it is WRONG!  This is not deception.

If one is not aware of the true state, then one cannot deceive oneself about it.  Instead, one is in a state of unawareness.  It is a state of not knowing.  This does not involve deception.  There is no dishonesty involved here.

Web, that's what anyone exercising logical reasoning would understand in a matter of seconds. I'm losing hope those opposing the "no cheat in SP" fact are capable of that and hence to understand the fallacy of the deceive yourself proposition.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Well, the last bastions of irrationality, and all that.

I mean, we still have Flat Earthers, fer cryin' out loud!

We will always have There is Cheating in a Closed SP Environment (TiCiaCSErs).  Trying to convince them otherwise has never been my intent.  Rather, it has been my intent to reach those who are capable of rational thought.

This I have succeeded in doing.

And so we finally have a consensus here on these boards, just like we did on the Legacy board.  We now have defining threads to link to, with a solid Proof for no Cheating in an SP Environment, and factual rebuttals to those who attempted to debunk it.

And that is all that I wanted.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               Aye.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Skildron]

               The only thing you have proven is that you both tend to think along post-modern lines. That in itself may not be a bad thing. I would like to continue this discussion but my grasp of English language seems not refined enough to do so - and an answer in German would not do on these boards. So, for the time being, end this, but not because I consent to your arguments but because I can not voice my dissent in English pointed enough.

Greetings
Skildron

PS: Oh by the way, the point of the garden of eden tale is not the mythical tree, but the decision to be like god - the same thing you do when you use DebugMode only console commands in single player games.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Skildron wrote...

The only thing you have proven is that you both tend to think along post-modern lines. That in itself may not be a bad thing. I would like to continue this discussion but my grasp of English language seems not refined enough to do so - and an answer in German would not do on these boards. So, for the time being, end this, but not because I consent to your arguments but because I can not voice my dissent in English pointed enough.

Greetings
Skildron

Your dissent (or my consent) is irrelevant to the fact it is not possible to cheat in SP. Same as it didn't matter what people thought (and still think) about the shape of the Earth, the Earth retained its shape.

PS: Oh by the way, the point of the garden of eden tale is not the mythical tree, but the decision to be like god - the same thing you do when you use DebugMode only console commands in single player games.

No matter consolle commands, the single player is already the god of his own world.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               You have a consensus among you two. So, go play with yourselves. Who cares? Don't claim consensus when the opposition realizes it is futile to try to discuss an issue with you because of rudeness, crudity, unswerving (and crazy) logic, and using your own statements as a basis for 'fact'. You are so certain there is no higher authority, so why should YOUR opinion be a higher authority than anyone's? You, sir, have deceived yourself.
Goodbye.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Frith5, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Frith5 wrote...

You have a consensus among you two.

At the least. Others have recognized the fact there can be no cheating in SP here on these boards, but of corse and as typical of the party refusing to use logical reasonign (because of an incapacity to do so?) facts are being ignored.

So, go play with yourselves. Who cares? Don't claim consensus when the opposition realizes it is futile to try to discuss an issue with you because of rudeness, crudity, unswerving (and crazy) logic

A clear sign the opposition has no arguments, calling the only sound logic presented here as crazy. Up until now the "opposition" has yet to made any argument at all.

and using your own statements as a basis for 'fact'.

A clear sign of your unintelligence of the matter and inability to understand plain simple english and logic. The basis for this fact are themselves facts, not our own statements. Our statements are statements of fact. 4+4=8; that's founded in maths. There can be no cheating in SP; this i sfounded in the definition of cheating and simple logic.

You are so certain there is no higher authority, so why should YOUR opinion

Ours is no opinion, but just a statement of fact. Differently from you, we offer no opinion. Hence there's nothign to debate, but for those uneducated enough to think a fact is an opinion. Go back to your flat earth and suffocate under the pressure of your arrogant ignorance and unintelligence.

be a higher authority than anyone's? You, sir, have deceived yourself.

Which is not possible. But you are too obtuse to get it.

Goodbye.

Didn't you say that already? Goodbye and good riddance. Idiots are better lost than found.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Skildron]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Skildron wrote...

The only thing you have proven is that you both tend to think along post-modern lines. That in itself may not be a bad thing. I would like to continue this discussion but my grasp of English language seems not refined enough to do so - and an answer in German would not do on these boards. So, for the time being, end this, but not because I consent to your arguments but because I can not voice my dissent in English pointed enough.

Greetings
Skildron

Your dissent (or my consent) is irrelevant to the fact it is not possible to cheat in SP. Same as it didn't matter what people thought (and still think) about the shape of the Earth, the Earth retained its shape.

But, other than the fact of the round earth - why do you have to be so polemic, btw. - the cheat or not cheat in SP is not a fact but a statement or opinion.

PS: Oh by the way, the point of the garden of eden tale is not the mythical tree, but the decision to be like god - the same thing you do when you use DebugMode only console commands in single player games.

No matter consolle commands, the single player is already the god of his own world.

And that is where you are wrong and where all this misunderstanding comes from: You can only be god in a world you create. If you enter a world created by others, regardless of SP or MP or whatever, you submit to rules and laws set by others. There always is a higher authority in a world not your own. You can cheat this authority or break their rules - that is your right in your own single player game, and there will be no one to sue you or judge or sentence you for it. It is your decision to do so, but it can be called cheating or whatever term comes near, because you can never be highest authority in a world not created by you - like it or not.

QED
Greetings
Skildron
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Skildron wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Skildron wrote...

The only thing you have proven is that you both tend to think along post-modern lines. That in itself may not be a bad thing. I would like to continue this discussion but my grasp of English language seems not refined enough to do so - and an answer in German would not do on these boards. So, for the time being, end this, but not because I consent to your arguments but because I can not voice my dissent in English pointed enough.

Greetings
Skildron

Your dissent (or my consent) is irrelevant to the fact it is not possible to cheat in SP. Same as it didn't matter what people thought (and still think) about the shape of the Earth, the Earth retained its shape.

But, other than the fact of the round earth - why do you have to be so polemic, btw. - the cheat or not cheat in SP is not a fact but a statement or opinion.

Wrong. It is a fact one cannot cheat in SP. One cannot cheat or deceive himself either, they ar ejust figures of speech, not supported by logic. And I'm not polemic, I'm rather stating an drestating and restating the truth, since the heralds of falsity are so obstinately spreading their misinformation around.

PS: Oh by the way, the point of the garden of eden tale is not the mythical tree, but the decision to be like god - the same thing you do when you use DebugMode only console commands in single player games.

No matter consolle commands, the single player is already the god of his own world.

And that is where you are wrong and where all this misunderstanding comes from: You can only be god in a world you create. If you enter a world created by others, regardless of SP or MP or whatever, you submit to rules and laws set by others.

Wrong. I do not submit to anything at all. I do as I wish, and so does any single player.

There always is a higher authority in a world not your own.

Which is not the case of SP. In SP the world is the player's world under his control.

You can cheat this authority

One cannot cheat himself and that's the only authority in SP.

or break their rules

There are no rules to break in SP.

that is your right in your own single player game

Wrong, it is impossible to cheat in SP period. There's no other authority (not simply no higher but no other!) but the player.

and there will be no one to sue you or judge or sentence you for it.

Since there's nothing to judge or sentence. There's just the player and his world.

It is your decision to do so, but it can be called cheating

Only if someone changes the definition of cheating. I guess that selling something for a high price can be called stealing but that does not make it really stealing. OR when we say that we are beating a dead horse, are we gonna beat a dead horse for real too?

or whatever term comes near

The term that comes closest is "playing the game as the player sees fit to him"

because you can never be highest authority in a world not created by you - like it or not.

The player is the only authority in SP. There's nothing else but the player. He picks something up ( a module) and does with it whatever he wants without any limiots. Including reverse engineering it and altering the source code (if he's capable of that of course). Nothing can ever constitute cheating in SP (although reverse engineeiring it might constitute a violation of the EULA, but that's not SP anymore). The only limits are the player's capabilities and the physical constraints imposed by reality. Like it or not.

QED

You have proven nothing but you unintelligence of the matter at hand

Greetings
Skildron

See ya.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Skildron]

               Just to avoid lots of quotes: It seems to me that we have entirely different views. As I said, you can do whatever you want, even try your shrewd logic on me. And to point it out once more: I, when picking up a module, feel obligated to obey the rules the creator of the module set as best as I can. If that implies e.g. rest restriction - which I hate because I usually play casters of some kind - I follow them, even though I could effortlessly alter the scripts.

And it seems to me that I am not the only one feeling this way - or this discussion would long ago have died down.

Why does the term "cheat" imply that I want to forbid anyone doing to his liking? And by the way, are you aware, that semi-official or hidden game commands are called "cheats" at least in Germany, even if they are recommended by game creators when you get stuck or something?

And once again, the only thing you prove is that you cannot respect another approach to a topic, if it goes against your grasp of logic. I laid out my understanding of playing and following rules and restrictions, you laid out yours - can we now leave it at that or is it your lifelong goal to convert anyone to your grasp of game reality?

Greetings
Skildron
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Skildron, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Skildron wrote...

Just to avoid lots of quotes: It seems to me that we have entirely different views. As I said, you can do whatever you want, even try your shrewd logic on me. And to point it out once more: I, when picking up a module, feel obligated to obey the rules the creator of the module set as best as I can. If that implies e.g. rest restriction - which I hate because I usually play casters of some kind - I follow them, even though I could effortlessly alter the scripts.

And that's your right to do so. You choose to play an unaltered module (which can be said to be the way the author suggests to play that module).

And it seems to me that I am not the only one feeling this way - or this discussion would long ago have died down.

I do the same that you do, generally speaking. I play a module the way it is, use no console commands, no leto, no extra gear etc. And yet, I know I cannot cheat even if I did just the opposite.

Why does the term "cheat" imply that I want to forbid anyone doing to his liking?

I don't think it does. The term cheat simply implies deceipt and deceipt is not possible in SP.

And by the way, are you aware, that semi-official or hidden game commands are called "cheats"

Lingo. Women are sometimes called chicks for the matter... is there anybody thinking they are really young chickens?

at least in Germany, even if they are recommended by game creators when you get stuck or something?

And once again, the only thing prove is that you cannot respect another approach to a topic, even if it goes against your grasp of logic.

I simply do not respect arrogant and stubborn unintelligence. Nor falsehood.

I laid out my understanding of playing and following rules and restrictions, you laid out yours - can we now leave it at that or is it your lifelong goal to convert anyone to your grasp of game reality?

Until there will be someone spreading falsehood and misinformation, I'll be there reminding everybody of the truth. To the best of my capabilities. And stating there can be cheating in SP is simply false. Hence I'm staying.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Skildron wrote...

And by the way, are you aware, that semi-official or hidden game commands are called "cheats"

Lingo. Women are sometimes called chicks for the matter... is there anybody thinking they are really young chickens?

From FreeDictionary.com:
3.  A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.


  Admittedly, it likely doesn't carry the same weight as the same definition from the Oxford English dictionary would have, but it is still a valid, and publicly accepted definition.
  Having said that, using a further definition from the same source (2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.), using said "cheat" isn't "cheating" in SP, unless the player themself had originally stated, even to themselves, that they wouldn't.  While the need for deception is contested between sources, to "cheat" still requires rules in place that are being broken, even if they're self-imposed ones.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Failed.Bard, 18 septembre 2011 - 12:51 .