The "is it cheating or not" thread

[Legacy_CBrachyrhynchos]

               And of course, you can't give advice on game mechanics and module content without an agreement on what they might be. Bringing this back around to the discussion that appeared to spawn this, my max-charisma monk build beats all other monk builds, assuming I give him "god mode" at the start of the session.  

(He, of course, wields the Vorpal Wet Noodle of Abigail Van Buren, 1d2 annoyance damage + 10d6 shame, great cleave as a bonus feat.)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par CBrachyrhynchos, 12 mai 2011 - 08:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AmstradHero]

               

WebShaman wrote...

I applaud your different take on the thread, and it has become increasingly obvious that no manner of argument is going to convince people who choose to bend or modify the rules to their whim that they are doing anything out of the ordinary. The distinction, and the choice, is simple:

If someone bends the rules they are either:
(a) No longer playing the same game.
( Cheating.

-AmstradHero

As I have pointed out, no rules are being bent.  I really hate to break it to you, AmstradHero, but as a Mod creator/Dev, you do NOT dictate to me how I play my Closed SP games.  No one does, with the exception of myself.  Should I DL one of your Mods, I guarantee you that I will alter it, change it, and make it into a more enjoyable (for me) playing environment.  NWN gives me this ability, and I make use of it.  There are just too many really good resources available for NWN that I do not want to give up, just because some Mod creator/Dev didn't use it, for whatever reason.

So, to recap :

Cheating only occurs when rules are being broken (agreed upon).

In a Closed SP environment, the Player makes the rules.

As such, no rules are being broken.

Therefore, there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with your assertions here, and so does pretty much any and every book on (video) game design.

A mod design / game dev does not dictate exactly how you play your SP games. However, they give you a pre-defined set of rules which dictate exactly how you can interact with the world. Review my previous post in this thread for examples of these rules across multiple game genres. These rules define the player's experience, and the designer(s) must create a game that revolves around these rules and delivers an engaging and cohesive experience because of them. The player does not make the rules, they are given the rules by the designer. Any claim otherwise is patently false and ridiculous. Without the rules given to the player by the designer (which are then enforced by the game's engine), there is no game.

If the player makes the rules, why can't they make the story too? Let's change Neverwinter Nights so that Fenthick isn't executed at the end of Act 1. Now the story is so much better... oh, wait. Actually, with that change, the story falls apart into an incoherent mess.

If the player can make the rules and BioWare is a developer that
adamantly pushed this line of thought (as has been argued by some people
here who apparently have an intimate knowledge of what the developers
were thinking when they created the game!), then look at Knights of the
Old Republic. It has a rule system that's effectively copied from
Neverwinter Nights with some tweaks to "Star Wars"-ify it. It also has a
console that you can use to "modify the rules". When you do so and you
save your game, you get a little "Cheats Used" message next to the save.

D&D is not a special case. NWN is not a special case. Go to any other gaming forum and put forward your argument and I can almost guarantee that you'll get shot down by the vast majority of people. Heck, go do it on a Halo or Call of Duty forum if you really want to get some punishment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

AmstradHero wrote...

I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with your assertions here, and so does pretty much any and every book on (video) game design.

A mod design / game dev does not dictate exactly how you play your SP games. However, they give you a pre-defined set of rules which dictate exactly how you can interact with the world. Review my previous post in this thread for examples of these rules across multiple game genres. These rules define the player's experience, and the designer(s) must create a game that revolves around these rules and delivers an engaging and cohesive experience because of them. The player does not make the rules, they are given the rules by the designer. Any claim otherwise is patently false and ridiculous. Without the rules given to the player by the designer (which are then enforced by the game's engine), there is no game.

Difference is that the designer makes the rules that are used to create the mod; the Player chooses the rules in which it is played. What was made does not have to be what is played.

If the player makes the rules, why can't they make the story too? Let's change Neverwinter Nights so that Fenthick isn't executed at the end of Act 1. Now the story is so much better... oh, wait. Actually, with that change, the story falls apart into an incoherent mess.

Funny you mention that, as in my fanfic imagination, Fenthick did not die; was his simulacrum that was hanged. Fen excaped when you left him on the stairs, and was to return in the sequel. No mess; no fuss. Just imagination and the fancy of the tale. Or do you not imagine the characters read from the books and scripts you ponder?

If the player can make the rules and BioWare is a developer that
adamantly pushed this line of thought (as has been argued by some people
here who apparently have an intimate knowledge of what the developers
were thinking when they created the game!), then look at Knights of the
Old Republic. It has a rule system that's effectively copied from
Neverwinter Nights with some tweaks to "Star Wars"-ify it. It also has a
console that you can use to "modify the rules". When you do so and you
save your game, you get a little "Cheats Used" message next to the save.

D&D is not a special case. NWN is not a special case. Go to any other gaming forum and put forward your argument and I can almost guarantee that you'll get shot down by the vast majority of people. Heck, go do it on a Halo or Call of Duty forum if you really want to get some punishment.

KOTOR is not NWN1, and has different design roots and teams. What those designers implemented does not loom over any other game save that one.

NWN1 is not a RTS, FPS, etc; it is based from D&D which offers the Players guidleines for play. As much difference that is seen in the rules of Mod creation may also be experienced in Player involvement. If we do not care for Hardcore rules, we omit them. If we want blue robes instead of scarlet, we tailor them.

But I will agree that NWN1 is not a special case. I contend that most any solo game I use that offers mods and command codes may be treated the same; just wil not try to compare results.  As for visiting other forums, I will pass; enough bias is seen here without the need for travel.

Personally I do not care if I am in the majority of thought; care more about freedom of choice and enjoyment than winning votes. As the song goes, I did it my way.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AmstradHero]

               

Elhanan wrote...
Difference is that the designer makes the rules that are used to create the mod; the Player chooses the rules in which it is played. What was made does not have to be what is played.

No. The designer creates the rules that are used to play the mod or game. In some cases, they'll produce difficulty levels to allow the player to customise the challenge to suit their skill level. If the player chooses to operate outside of the standard functionality of the game (e.g. using console commands that won't work without additional "out-of-game" modification to settings files), then they're not playing the same game. They're using cheats.

Again, you're arguing with a bucketload of literature and doctrine on game design regarding rule mechanics if you say the designer's rules don't matter. But I guess that as a player that you know better than veterans of the game industry and people who dedicate large portions of their life writing about it?

Elhanan wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
If the player makes the rules, why can't they make the story too? Let's change Neverwinter Nights so that Fenthick isn't executed at the end of Act 1. Now the story is so much better... oh, wait. Actually, with that change, the story falls apart into an incoherent mess.

Funny you mention that, as in my fanfic imagination, Fenthick did not die; was his simulacrum that was hanged. Fen excaped when you left him on the stairs, and was to return in the sequel. No mess; no fuss. Just imagination and the fancy of the tale. Or do you not imagine the characters read from the books and scripts you ponder?

Okay, and this is the point where you've completely lost all credibility. Now you've not only rewritten the story, but half of the characters as well.  He would have contacted Aribeth to let her know he was alright. At which point her betrayal (which effectively drives the story from part way through Act 2) would never happen because Fenthick isn't dead.

Never before have I seen a group of players with such a strong sense of entitlement to basically change anything they wish about a game and declare "I'm not cheating" and "I'm playing the same game."

I have no issue with cheating, but I'm astounded and flabbergasted at the extent of rationalisation and deception you're attempting to apply to yourselves and this entire conversation simply to avoid what you perceive to be the pejorative label of a "cheater". For me, that is the telling factor in this conversation, not the issue that you use mods or console commands to change the dynamics of your single player experience. Cheating is the concrete and explicit definition of that behaviour, no matter how you may attempt to justify it. I care not a whit if someone cheats in a single player experience, but I expect them to recognise and admit that is what they are doing.

And with that I really am done with this thread for good. Given the people declaring that using console commands is not cheating have chosen to eschew both the definitions of words in the English language as well as logical reasoning, I see absolutely zero purpose or benefit in involving myself in this discussion any longer.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AmstradHero, 13 mai 2011 - 07:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

AmstradHero wrote...

No. The designer creates the rules that are used to play the mod or game. In some cases, they'll produce difficulty levels to allow the player to customise the challenge to suit their skill level. If the player chooses to operate outside of the standard functionality of the game (e.g. using console commands that won't work without additional "out-of-game" modification to settings files), then they're not playing the same game. They're using cheats.

Again, you're arguing with a bucketload of literature and doctrine on game design regarding rule mechanics if you say the designer's rules don't matter. But I guess that as a player that you know better than veterans of the game industry and people who dedicate large portions of their life writing about it?

Sometimes, I might. A few old souls may seem to recall this Anient One being among the first to ask on the forums for needed fixes to be made for the 3E Ranger. And seeing that the NWN1 Ranger is far above the lesser model, I cannot claim responsibility for the improved model, but was found to be correct when compared to the 3.5 version coming out soon thereafter. I ain't always right, but the same can be held for being wrong, too.

While the designer may wish, desire, and cross both their typing fingers for their rules to be used in play, it is the Player that decides and actually plays the game. Adding files, haks, and other possible rule variants does not make the Player a cheater.  The designer's choices do matter, as many will play the default methods, even myself. But it is still the indv Player that makes the final decision.

Okay, and this is the point where you've completely lost all credibility. Now you've not only rewritten the story, but half of the characters as well.  He would have contacted Aribeth to let her know he was alright. At which point her betrayal (which effectively drives the story from part way through Act 2) would never happen because Fenthick isn't dead.

Never before have I seen a group of players with such a strong sense of entitlement to basically change anything they wish about a game and declare "I'm not cheating" and "I'm playing the same game."

Hello? Read again: Imaginary fanfic taken from the same source and game as the Mod Design; did not change a thing. I was simply pointing out that I could rewrite the story which I posted now and again on the forums. In my version, he was also behind the ones seeking to turn Aribeth to the 'Dark Side', and was too cunning to be captured so easily. After all, Fenthick looks like Cary Elwes, and he is much too slick for such a simple misstep.

I have no issue with cheating, but I'm astounded and flabbergasted at the extent of rationalisation and deception you're attempting to apply to yourselves and this entire conversation simply to avoid what you perceive to be the pejorative label of a "cheater". For me, that is the telling factor in this conversation, not the issue that you use mods or console commands to change the dynamics of your single player experience. Cheating is the concrete and explicit definition of that behaviour, no matter how you may attempt to justify it. I care not a whit if someone cheats in a single player experience, but I expect them to recognise and admit that is what they are doing.

And with that I really am done with this thread for good. Given the people declaring that using console commands is not cheating have chosen to eschew both the definitions of words in the English language as well as logical reasoning, I see absolutely zero purpose or benefit in involving myself in this discussion any longer.

Reads like you do have a lot of issues with those that disagree with your notions of cheats, cheating, and chosen kind of play. Take your ball and go home to study if you wish, as myself and others have little to add to your closed mind and opinion. Simply be aware that you quit; nobody forced you to go. But leaving when you think you are correct does not equate to being correct, esp on matters of opinion.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 13 mai 2011 - 09:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Elhanan wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

No. The designer creates the rules that are used to play the mod or game. In some cases, they'll produce difficulty levels to allow the player to customise the challenge to suit their skill level. If the player chooses to operate outside of the standard functionality of the game (e.g. using console commands that won't work without additional "out-of-game" modification to settings files), then they're not playing the same game. They're using cheats.

Again, you're arguing with a bucketload of literature and doctrine on game design regarding rule mechanics if you say the designer's rules don't matter. But I guess that as a player that you know better than veterans of the game industry and people who dedicate large portions of their life writing about it?

Sometimes, I might. A few old souls may seem to recall this Anient One being among the first to ask on the forums for needed fixes to be made for the 3E Ranger. And seeing that the NWN1 Ranger is far above the lesser model, I cannot claim responsibility for the improved model, but was found to be correct when compared to the 3.5 version coming out soon thereafter. I ain't always right, but the same can be held for being wrong, too.

While the designer may wish, desire, and cross both their typing fingers for their rules to be used in play, it is the Player that decides and actually plays the game. Adding files, haks, and other possible rule variants does not make the Player a cheater.  The designer's choices do matter, as many will play the default methods, even myself. But it is still the indv Player that makes the final decision.

Yes I agree but it depends on usage. For me, if you install ranger per 3.5 hak into your single player game its not cheating. But if you raise your abilities up to 255 then you are cheating. Its about player intend. If player wants to make things easier, faster, cheaper, etc. he is cheating and not modding anymore.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

[Yes I agree but it depends on usage. For me, if you install ranger per 3.5 hak into your single player game its not cheating. But if you raise your abilities up to 255 then you are cheating. Its about player intend. If player wants to make things easier, faster, cheaper, etc. he is cheating and not modding anymore.

It is up to the Player intent. So even if I agree with you that 255 in all abilities would not be fun or challenging, another Player only wanting to see the stories and wanting to breeze thru combat may have other expectations, thus is not cheating per se.

However, if that Player then chooses later to add unlimited gold or read walkthroughs, and sways from that original intent, they may be cheating themselves by breaking their own self-imposed rules.

All of this in solo game context only.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Elhanan wrote...

It is up to the Player intent. So even if I agree with you that 255 in all abilities would not be fun or challenging, another Player only wanting to see the stories and wanting to breeze thru combat may have other expectations, thus is not cheating per se.

Yes player can intend to see the top items in order to prepare power build (which would be metagaming) but you just rationalizing again. It doesnt matter on what you are using cheats. (That could be in conflict with something i may say before but I didnt changed my mind, if I did that I probably just didnt described the case enough)

EDIT: this is vicious spiral

The main issue I see about this is that you and your side says "you play SP alone so you can make your own "rules"" but as I said I dont think its true, other peoples playing the same (except if they modified it with mods like PRC) SP game too, just not with you. And that is it. If you can accept this thought, then you couldnt say you dont cheat in SP.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 mai 2011 - 10:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yes player can intend to see the top items in order to prepare power build (which would be metagaming) but you just rationalizing again. It doesnt matter on what you are using cheats. (That could be in conflict with something i may say before but I didnt changed my mind, if I did that I probably just didnt described the case enough)

EDIT: this is vicious spiral

The main issue I see about this is that you and your side says "you play SP alone so you can make your own "rules"" but as I said I dont think its true, other peoples playing the same (except if they modified it with mods like PRC) SP game too, just not with you. And that is it. If you can accept this thought, then you couldnt say you dont cheat in SP.

I do not seem to have anyone here on my side that I have noticed. As far as I can tell, there are those that:
 
* believe if one uses rules outside the mod, then one may be cheating.
* believe one cannot cheat when playing a solo mod.
* I seem to be the only one that contends that while the Player sets the standard for the solo game, they can violate that set of rules, and may cheat themselves.

I have cheated; have broken my own starting set of rules and was compelled to reload to earlier saves and replay the game as intended; my original intentions, and not the Mod Designer. But using mods, haks, and command codes does not make one a cheater in and by themselves.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               First of all

A mod design / game dev does not dictate exactly how you play your SP games. However, they give you a pre-defined set of rules which dictate exactly how you can interact with the world. Review my previous post in this thread for examples of these rules across multiple game genres. These rules define the player's experience, and the designer(s) must create a game that revolves around these rules and delivers an engaging and cohesive experience because of them. The player does not make the rules, they are given the rules by the designer. Any claim otherwise is patently false and ridiculous. Without the rules given to the player by the designer (which are then enforced by the game's engine), there is no game.

If the player makes the rules, why can't they make the story too? Let's change Neverwinter Nights so that Fenthick isn't executed at the end of Act 1. Now the story is so much better... oh, wait. Actually, with that change, the story falls apart into an incoherent mess.

This is really puzzling that anyone would try to take this stance, especially someone with Mod/Dev experience!

If what you are saying is true, then there is NO NEED FOR COMMUNITY CONTENT to supplement the game!

And as we all know, community content for most games is a flourishing thing these days.  So what does such content do?  It changes the original game experience - visually, rules-wise, story-wise (there is even a bit of change for the OC of NWN where one can redeem Aribeth, etc) and so on.

Ignoring this as a Mod/Dev is incredulous!  

Have you AmastradHero ever worked on a PW?  Because most who work on a PW are well aware of such content that exists, for what I hold to be most obvious reasons.  They tend to change the game experience AWAY from others playing at the same time (visual enhancements, etc in the Override, for example).  Not to mention the darker side, but we will skip that here (it is an MP environment, after all, and not a Closed SP one).

You are confusing framework and mechanics for rules here.  Don't.   The Dev of a game (or even Mod creator) provides a framework based on some mechanic(s) as a vehicle for my imagination and enjoyment.  As long as I am playing in a Closed SP environment, I (and I alone) decide what the rules are.  The Dev(s) and/or Mod creator are NO LONGER INVOLVED!

Personally, all credibility that you may have had (not to mention the little rant you left in a huff) disappeared into the void with that little gem of a post.  But perhaps you posted that out of an emotional outburst.  That can often cloud the intellect and lead to such inane ramblings.  I rather suspect that when you calm down, you will probably see the light of reason.  Depending on your nature, you will either admit to it, or you will suppress it, gloss it over, etc.  No worries.

All you had to say was "oh, well, in such a case, yeah, ok.  Now I see what you are pointing out".  That would have just about sewn it up.  YMMV.

To ShaDoOoW : I have already defined what a Closed SP environment is.  It is one where there are no others involved other than the Player themselves.    And I can absolutely, with 100% certainty, contest to the fact that such exists - I play in such an environment all the time!

To Elhanan - you are almost there.  You seem to have a small problem (logic-wise) with the fact that a Player cannot cheat on themselves (unless they have a split personality disorder, of course, as has also been pointed out before).  I will show you.

Player DLs Mod (or makes it themselves - does not matter really).  
Does modifications, etc to it. (original determination of the structure of Rules of Play).
Starts play.
Finds out in the course of play that some of the original determined rules of play are not satisfactory for the playing experience, for one reason or another.
Does further modifications, etc, to it (changes to the structure of Rules of Play).

As you can see, there is no cheating going on here.  Just a refinement of the Rules of Play to allow for the maximum playing enjoyment.  For example, I add the CEP to my DLed Mod, add in some appearance changers (I have my favs), scripts, etc.  During play (due to my changes) certain errors or discrepancies show up.  So, I have to make changes to correct them. And so on, until it is how I want it to be.

This is actually how the QA process works, you know?  Debugging changes, and all that.  Are you suggesting then that when the Devs/Mod creators change things, that they are actually cheating??!!

To those suggesting that "adding in X amount of gold, XP, items, etc" is cheating...well, what do you think that Mods/Devs do??!!  Since it is my Closed SP environment, and my playing experience, I will mod the playing experience to tailor to MY tastes, not the tastes of someone else!  This is one of the things that is so awesome about NWN!  I have almost unlimited power at my fingertips (and Custom Content galore!) to accomplish this with!

Devs and Mod creators do not have this luxury as I do, because they cannot hope to cater directly to my specific playing style and tastes!  They do not know me, what I like, dislike, etc.  They create something that appeals to the projected AUDIENCE that they are trying to reach!  This basically means more than one person.  Thus, they often include things to appeal to that audience, or leave things out that might alienate it.  This limits my personal playing experience!  This is why NWN is really great!  I can tailor the playing experience easily to match my playing style and tastes!  No other game currently gives me this much power, with so little effort (not to mention the oodles of custom content that has been created for this game to choose from!).

If I want X amount of gold in the Mod, then I will put it in (modded).  If I want such and such an item, in it goes!  You all seem to be forgetting that in a Closed SP environment, I am all -  Modder, Dev, DM, and Player alike!  I can Mod the Mod, I can develop new rules and add them to the game and override the engine (very possible, see the PRC for details, for example), I can DM my party along (I normally only play with a party), and I RP their respective roles and parts, and of course I play.

None of this is cheating.  It is not cheating due to the fact that we have agreed that in order to cheat, one has to be breaking rules.  And as I have pointed out, in a Closed SP environment, I (and I alone) make the rules.  I make them WHENEVER I so choose in order to maximize my playing enjoyment.

Because that is what it is all about.  Playing enjoyment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               @ Web - Your reply is why I attempted to place 'it may be cheating' in my posts, as absolutes do not always occur. I agree that a Player met with a new challenge that is outside their parameters will have to make adj and corrections for play accordingly, debug, fix, etc., and they are not cheating.

However, if the Player violates their personal settings, say to get by some challenge that was (or could have been) anticipated, that may be cheating. For instance, if the Player knew the Mod had no use of perm Haste items and accepted that ruling, adding such an item due to a difficult encounter later might be cheating as they may spoil that encounter and the game for themselves. There may be other such examples, but in general, those actions which are taken that may actually spoil gameplay for that indv Player may be cheating, because they strayed from their own choice of rules for some reason.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 13 mai 2011 - 02:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

Elhanan wrote...
I do not seem to have anyone here on my side that I have noticed. As far as I can tell, there are those that:
 
* believe if one uses rules outside the mod, then one may be cheating.
* believe one cannot cheat when playing a solo mod.
* I seem to be the only one that contends that while the Player sets the standard for the solo game, they can violate that set of rules, and may cheat themselves.

* and those who prefer to  judge each individual case or don't see the point in judging at all, as long as everyone's having fun and noone's gaming experience is impaired by anyone else.
'>

I also think there's some truth in the thought that as a single player you can't break any rules if you never agreed to play by them in the first place. And also in the thought that if you're playing by your own rules you're playing a different game and can't compare it to those of other players anymore or criticize the mod author whose rules you are not following. But if you don't compete with other people and just do your own thing without complaining and without harming anyone, I just can't be bothered to give your playstyle a name and distance myself from it. From my point of view "cheating" only has meaning if someone feels cheated. If noone feels cheated and everyone's happy, you can call it cheating or not, it just doesn't have any relevance, if you ask me.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 mai 2011 - 02:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               Here is where we depart, Elhanan.  That individual Player cannot cheat themselves, because they can change the rules that they have decided upon whenever they so choose.  They do not have to reach a consensus that is necessary when more than one is involved.

For example, I have decided upon my build for the game.  For my entire party of halfling warriors, who all happen to have low Str and low Con (whatever.  Consider it an RP device).  That encounter now is more than just difficult, due to the build that I have selected.  It is now IMPOSSIBLE.  Those Perma-Haste booties fit the bill, nicely (pun intended!).  I tend to do series of mods with a party that I have created from the gitgo.  Some Mods may just not be suitable for such without modification (or such items).

Again, no cheating.

Even if the Player just decides "Screw it!  I am putting in Haste Boots!" - well, so what?  That is her right to do so.  It does not matter if before that same Player had decided "I will do this according to the guidelines set by the Mod maker, without Perma-Haste."  For some reason, known only to the Player themselves, they have decided to CHANGE THAT RULE.

And that is what it is, a change to the rules, not a breaking of them.  That is the point being made  here.  One might (and probably would) consider something like that cheesy "Awww, you just did that to make it easier."  Yes, but it is my game, so let me play it like I want to.  It is all about my enjoyment, not yours.  You play your game as you see fit, and I will do the same.

It is when one attempts to force things upon others that the dictatorship and tyranny starts.  Do not label someone in a Closed SP environment a "cheater" because they make and play by their own rules, purely for their own enjoyment.

Remember, we are talking about a Closed SP environment here.  We are not talking about the "Hey, I finished game X in X time with X blah blah blah left!  I am teh BEST!" sort of play here - because there is comparisons being done with others.  I do not, for example, compare my playing experiences with others.  Why would I want to?  It is for me, not for others.

Perhaps that is why I am one of the few that really enjoyed the original OC - because I tailor it to be more in line with my personal tastes.  I still occasionally dust it off and mod it a bit more, and then play it through. YMMV.

Changing self-made rules is not breaking them.  You are not unwillingly being subjected to the change.  On the contrary, you are willingly participating.  Again, this is about changing rules, not breaking them.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               @ Web - And again I can agree to a point; the point where the Player sits back and considers that the mod was far too easy, wishes they had not done such and such at some Save, ends the game with items that were all self-fabricted and all mod items are in storage, etc. Basically, any choice that spoils or ruins that mod for that Player may be cheating.

FWIW - wish I could type that well and that quickly, as large posts are almost extinct for me currently.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_CBrachyrhynchos]

               

WebShaman wrote...

Devs and Mod creators do not have this luxury as I do, because they cannot hope to cater directly to my specific playing style and tastes!

Sure, and if your specific playing style and tastes happen to involve the Vorpal Wet Noodle of Dear Abby designed for your Munchkin Monk, then you certainly should expect criticsm. And of course, you can't really be taken seriously when you give advice on how to play a monk in a given module.

They do not know me, what I like, dislike, etc.  They create something that appeals to the projected AUDIENCE that they are trying to reach!

Generally I find that if I really don't like a game, youtube is an easier way to get the funny parts.

And as I have pointed out...

You do know that simply repeating a bad claim doesn't make it true, don't you?