The "is it cheating or not" thread

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I would say read your own posts on your suggestion to re-read the topic lol.

Look, you are saying that you doesnt cheat because you can make your own rules. I say that you can make your own rules in MP too. You say SP is different than MP and we are at the beginning of the discussion. There is lot of peoples that are trying to explain that there are general rules, designer intend etc. But you dont want to accept this.

BTW I made a poll for this thread, vote please http://social.biowar...07/polls/19916/
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Rather trivial conversation if you ask me, but, since no one else did, I'll shut-up now <>

Heh - I just flamed myself
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 12 mai 2011 - 10:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I would say read your own posts on your suggestion to re-read the topic lol.

Look, you are saying that you doesnt cheat because you can make your own rules. I say that you can make your own rules in MP too. You say SP is different than MP and we are at the beginning of the discussion. There is lot of peoples that are trying to explain that there are general rules, designer intend etc. But you dont want to accept this.

BTW I made a poll for this thread, vote please http://social.biowar...07/polls/19916/ 

I accept there are general rules. I simply add House rules for solo play.

In m/p, the group agrees to the rules used for play, and this gathering often has an active DM. In solo games, the Player is the DM.

I acceot that there is designer intent in the mods. In solo play, I alter the rules for use in my own solo game.

And your poll fails to mention my position at all, so I pass on giving feedback that is again deemed to be without value.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Elhanan wrote...

I accept there are general rules. I simply add House rules for solo play.

In m/p, the group agrees to the rules used for play, and this gathering often has an active DM. In solo games, the Player is the DM.

I acceot that there is designer intent in the mods. In solo play, I alter the rules for use in my own solo game.

And your poll fails to mention my position at all, so I pass on giving feedback that is again deemed to be without value.

Whats your position then?

And if you agree there are general rules/designer intend then its the same as you would cheat in multiplayer, agreed there are server rules but you would make your own house rules for yourself and called it legit. Thats my point.

EDIT: And before you say there are other players in multiplayer. There are other players in single player too, they just dont play with you. Its again the same as if you would cheat in multiplayer and thought its legit when you play solo and dont interact with other players.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 mai 2011 - 01:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

]Whats your position then?

And if you agree there are general rules/designer intend then its the same as you would cheat in multiplayer, agreed there are server rules but you would make your own house rules for yourself and called it legit. Thats my point.

That one may cheat in solo play by cheating and spoiling the game for themselves; not by the simple use of command codes. But I did suggest re-reading the thread.

And I completely disgree with the point of equating solo rules to those of m/p, but this may be a language barrier issue.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

                sorry but I dont know what you are talking about I meant cheating generally I didnt say "using command codes"

you re-read the thread, its not me who says that using console commands is cheating
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 mai 2011 - 01:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tybae]

               

Elhanan wrote...

Tybae wrote...

Missed one: Which rules to choose?

No I didn't and I'd prefer you didn't put words in my mouth. 

Would not think of it, though you might consider thought before speech.

I was attempting to include the above statement in the former one you quoted, and replied to earlier. If I was including words, it was to that previous idea. But again, reading, context, comprehension, are not up to chips on shoulders.

*worries for the humanoid race*.

Wow.  I had no idea my father was on this thread.  If I wanted his advice, I'd ask him.  You may want to consider whether or not someone wants advice before giving it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Tybae wrote...

Wow.  I had no idea my father was on this thread.  If I wanted his advice, I'd ask him.  You may want to consider whether or not someone wants advice before giving it.

My pleasure; no chanrge. And say Hi to Dad for me!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               As has been pointed out, it all boils down to the essential point :

Cheating only occurs if rules are being broken

This seems to be something that everyone in this thread agrees with (and I would hazard to say that just about everyone, period).

Thus, the discussion is really about are rules being broken in Closed SP play.  To answer this, one has to first answer, who makes the rules in Closed SP play?

In Closed SP play (I have already defined this, look it up), only the Player is making the rules.  There is nobody else there to make them.  I can DL a Mod that has rule suggestions, for example, but I normally discard them anyway.  I prefer to play by my own self-made rules.  Yes, I open the Mods I DL, I change them (some quite drastically), modify them, and then play them.

Why do I do this?  To amplify my playing enjoyment.  I tend to play with the OHS, I like having CEP and the PRC in my mods as well (though the latter does not play well with the OHS).  I like having total freedom to change the looks of my Main Character and the rest of the Party as I see fit!  This broadens my RP horizon and increases my enjoyment of the game I am playing in a Closed SP environment.

Thus, in a Closed SP environment, only the Player is making the rules to be played by.  No one else is.  Period.  Prove this to be otherwise.

With the above established, then one can see that no rules are being violated.  As that is the case, then it follows that THERE IS NO CHEATING GOING ON!

This was established long ago, in the old forums.

Even if you never discussed the game with another person, playing clean has potentially greater rewards. Reward for a task in the human brain is normally correlated to effort expended, shortcuts in effort lead to shortcuts in reward.  If you actually want to experience what the designer created as intended, playing clean is better. Cheating may be harmless, but it still isn't as good as playing clean even in the pure single player case.

Beyond that, are social aspects when you bring your private cheating public. If just for the benefit of speaking of the game in the same context, playing clean is better. When communicating with designers (feedback,reviews,questions) playing clean is better.

Playing clean is better. I will never pretend cheating is of equal merit to playing clean.

-Lowlander

Absolute rubbish!  I can say with absolute certainty that playing "clean", as you put it, is a horrible way to play NWN SP in a Closed SP environment!  Doing so is leaving out literally TONS of improving content such as the OHS, the ability (or not) to change character appearance as one sees fit (for RP purposes), leaves out the PRC, CEP, etc!  Not all Mod designers include such additions to their mods, unfortunately.  So a Mod with a really interesting storyline may not include resources that I want.  Guess what?  NWN allows me, the Player, to change this!  And so I do.

I applaud your different take on the thread, and it has become increasingly obvious that no manner of argument is going to convince people who choose to bend or modify the rules to their whim that they are doing anything out of the ordinary. The distinction, and the choice, is simple:

If someone bends the rules they are either:
(a) No longer playing the same game.
( Cheating.

-AmstradHero

As I have pointed out, no rules are being bent.  I really hate to break it to you, AmstradHero, but as a Mod creator/Dev, you do NOT dictate to me how I play my Closed SP games.  No one does, with the exception of myself.  Should I DL one of your Mods, I guarantee you that I will alter it, change it, and make it into a more enjoyable (for me) playing environment.  NWN gives me this ability, and I make use of it.  There are just too many really good resources available for NWN that I do not want to give up, just because some Mod creator/Dev didn't use it, for whatever reason.

So, to recap :

Cheating only occurs when rules are being broken (agreed upon).

In a Closed SP environment, the Player makes the rules.

As such, no rules are being broken.

Therefore, there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

Now we come to a further interesting thing :

If I have created my own Mod, and I alter it, am I cheating?  I am interested in how this will get answered.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par WebShaman, 12 mai 2011 - 01:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

WebShaman wrote...

As has been pointed out, it all boils down to the essential point :

Cheating only occurs if rules are being broken

This seems to be something that everyone in this thread agrees with (and I would hazard to say that just about everyone, period).

Thus, the discussion is really about are rules being broken in Closed SP play. To answer this, one has to first answer, who makes the rules in Closed SP play?

In Closed SP play (I have already defined this, look it up), only the Player is making the rules. There is nobody else there to make them. I can DL a Mod that has rule suggestions, for example, but I normally discard them anyway. I prefer to play by my own self-made rules. Yes, I open the Mods I DL, I change them (some quite drastically), modify them, and then play them.

Why do I do this? To amplify my playing enjoyment. I tend to play with the OHS, I like having CEP and the PRC in my mods as well (though the latter does not play well with the OHS). I like having total freedom to change the looks of my Main Character and the rest of the Party as I see fit! This broadens my RP horizon and increases my enjoyment of the game I am playing in a Closed SP environment.

Thus, in a Closed SP environment, only the Player is making the rules to be played by. No one else is. Period. Prove this to be otherwise.

With the above established, then one can see that no rules are being violated. As that is the case, then it follows that THERE IS NO CHEATING GOING ON!

This was established long ago, in the old forums.

Even if you never discussed the game with another person, playing clean has potentially greater rewards. Reward for a task in the human brain is normally correlated to effort expended, shortcuts in effort lead to shortcuts in reward. If you actually want to experience what the designer created as intended, playing clean is better. Cheating may be harmless, but it still isn't as good as playing clean even in the pure single player case.

Beyond that, are social aspects when you bring your private cheating public. If just for the benefit of speaking of the game in the same context, playing clean is better. When communicating with designers (feedback,reviews,questions) playing clean is better.

Playing clean is better. I will never pretend cheating is of equal merit to playing clean.

-Lowlander

Absolute rubbish! I can say with absolute certainty that playing "clean", as you put it, is a horrible way to play NWN SP in a Closed SP environment! Doing so is leaving out literally TONS of improving content such as the OHS, the ability (or not) to change character appearance as one sees fit (for RP purposes), leaves out the PRC, CEP, etc! Not all Mod designers include such additions to their mods, unfortunately. So a Mod with a really interesting storyline may not include resources that I want. Guess what? NWN allows me, the Player, to change this! And so I do.

I applaud your different take on the thread, and it has become increasingly obvious that no manner of argument is going to convince people who choose to bend or modify the rules to their whim that they are doing anything out of the ordinary. The distinction, and the choice, is simple:

If someone bends the rules they are either:
(a) No longer playing the same game.
( Cheating.

-AmstradHero

As I have pointed out, no rules are being bent. I really hate to break it to you, AmstradHero, but as a Mod creator/Dev, you do NOT dictate to me how I play my Closed SP games. No one does, with the exception of myself. Should I DL one of your Mods, I guarantee you that I will alter it, change it, and make it into a more enjoyable (for me) playing environment. NWN gives me this ability, and I make use of it. There are just too many really good resources available for NWN that I do not want to give up, just because some Mod creator/Dev didn't use it, for whatever reason.

So, to recap :

Cheating only occurs when rules are being broken (agreed upon).

In a Closed SP environment, the Player makes the rules.

As such, no rules are being broken.

Therefore, there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

Now we come to a further interesting thing :

If I have created my own Mod, and I alter it, am I cheating?  I am interested in how this will get answered.

First, I agree with the vast majority of your post. But I contend one is able to cheat themselves if the set parameters of rules they choose are exceeded by themselves, and spoil the game.

Example: the Player chooses to add Bags of Holding and gold as a viable method to aid shopping and collection. But in addition, they add a set of Haste boots later which were not originally intended by that same Player; hence they might be cheating and spoiling the game by violation of their own rules.

Thanks for the wrap up though.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

WebShaman wrote...
This was established long ago, in the old forums.

In a Closed SP environment, the Player makes the rules.

As such, no rules are being broken.

Therefore, there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

No, it was not established or decided merely on your say so.  Did GW Bush show up as "The Decider" and decree it so??

The player most certainly did not make the rules. The rules of a complex single player game like NWN come from negotiation/licensing between Bioware/WotC. These are the core rules of the game engine.

Finally the Mod designer crafts an intended experience for players to download. This is pretty much the end of creative elements and rule making.

Giving yourself a pile of gold/items is not "Making the SP rules", it is simply selective breaking of a couple of the rule to take shortcuts/give advantages.

No one is forcing you to play by the rules in SP, but it is completely farcical to suggest that issuing cheat codes to give yourself gold/items is "Making the rules" for SP game.

This is nothing but tenuous rationalizing.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 12 mai 2011 - 04:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Webshaman: I dont think there is closed SP game, you can think its closed but other peoples playing that game too, just not with you.

However what you say you do isnt cheating in my view either, thats modding imo. So you dont play the game that was given to you anymore, but new game. You upgraded your game with "community custom content" in order to get not advantage in play but new possibilities.

To clear my position - but if you give yourself that gold, which was given as example, then it's not a new game but cheating imo.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

No, it was not established or decided merely on your say so.  Did GW Bush show up as "The Decider" and decree it so??

The player most certainly did not make the rules. The rules of a complex single player game like NWN come from negotiation/licensing between Bioware/WotC. These are the core rules of the game engine.

Then the Player chooses what rules in the engine they wish to use via sliders and settings.

Finally the Mod designer crafts an intended experience for players to download. This is pretty much the end of creative elements and rule making.

The finally, finally the Player may add the PGC3 mod to craft a PC for the game , and port in for play. Or add other Haks, mods, files, etc to season for personal taste.

Giving yourself a pile of gold/items is not "Making the SP rules", it is simply selective breaking of a couple of the rule to take shortcuts/give advantages.

No one is forcing you to play by the rules in SP, but it is completely farcical to suggest that issuing cheat codes to give yourself gold/items is "Making the rules" for SP game.

This is nothing but tenuous rationalizing.

Careful; getting your critcs mixed. Web did not mention such, or at least here; I did. And while it may be against your POV and iritate your sensabilities, such inclusions does not make them wrong for another player outside your myopic thoughts and world.

Then if I violate the rules I have chosen, then I may be cheating.. Thank you for playing!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Lowlander wrote...

The player most certainly did not make the rules. The rules of a complex single player game like NWN come from negotiation/licensing between Bioware/WotC. These are the core rules of the game engine.

So we have to break the rules as expressed by WoTC/BW? Like fireballs do 1d6/lvl damage with a lvl cap of 10? Like fighters have 1/1 BAB? Like, it takes X xp to go from lvl2 to 3? Like undead are crit immune?  Because that sounds like things mod & module writers do.

Shado0ow does that. Shado0ow has changed the starting stats for characters if you press the reccomended button. Is this cheating? I know he would call it modding.

If it's not cheating then why is the player not simply modding? 

Lowlander wrote...
Finally the Mod designer crafts an intended experience for players to download. This is pretty much the end of creative elements and rule making.

Sooooo, are you trying to claim that however the player modifys it there is no creative element going on?

Is your answer the same with a module that has been designed to be moddable by other people, Good vs Evil for example? 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_CBrachyrhynchos]

               Sure, you can make your own rules. Obsidian and Projekt RED STUDIO did just that. And most of the people who come down on the "it's cheating" side liberally admit to using gameplay and content mods.

However, if you talk about your rule changes on the internet, other people are welcome to critique the new rules you create and judge them to be ridiculous modifications to what is already a reasonably easy game.