The "is it cheating or not" thread

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 Okay, so this thread has been debating cheating or not in SP mode of NWN. About the only thing we've all agreed upon is that cheating is only possible when someone breaks the rules. I've been doing a small bit of reading, and I've come up with a few interesting tidbits.

Within the context of NWN, since that's the game we're all playing, there are no rules that can be broken by the average SP individual. I spent some time perusing the NWN manual that came with my game, and there are no "rules" listed in it. There are references to "rules", and they indicate that the rules are hard coded into the game engine, and should not be "worried about" by the player. Here's the references with page numbers.

NWN manual wrote...

Game Options allow you to tweak the game difficulty and changeother gameplay options. We recommend most people play thegame on the default settings, since the game is evenly balanced atthese settings. If you are an experienced Dungeons & Dragons play-er, you might consider selecting the “Hardcore D&D” option. Thissetting implements some of the more complex aspects of the rulessystem.  (page 22)
Neverwinter Nights is based on the 3rd Edition of the Dungeons& Dragons roleplaying game....The Dungeons & Dragons rules set has been carefully designed tofacilitate your travels, and Neverwinter Nights takes full advantageof that flexibility. The convenience of a computer roleplayinggame means that the majority of rules and functions are handledbehind the scenes, leaving you free to enjoy your adventures with-out worrying about rules. (page 38)

Now, more interesting than that is the issue about using the console commands to do the "cheating". Contrary to what someone said, they are mentioned in the manual, and they do not refer to them as "cheat codes". They are simply console commands. So they are not "hidden" or "secret", and are not only intended for use by developers. The manual even explains how to bring up the console, and includes a short list of some of the commands you can use. Again, here's the reference with page number.

NWN manual wrote...
Command line To use a command line action, you can bring up the console usingthe tilde key. You can also enter console commands into the chatwidow by prefacing them with a double pound “##”.
MAPPING A COMMAND LINE TO THE QUICKBARTo map a command to the quickbar, right click in the quickbarslot to bring up a radial menu. Select the map command lineoption. Enter a label. Then enter the command prefaced with ##.
COMMON COMMANDS
(there was a short list of commands here, but they didn't transfer correctly. If you want to see them, open your manual and look for yourself)
(page 171)

There's a bone, ya'll chew on it for a while if you like.

I can't see why this should change anything?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I can't see why this should change anything?

It doesn't for me; simply bolsters my previous statements.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_CBrachyrhynchos]

               Interestingly, more and more game publishers are adopting cheating-detection systems for SP games on Steam. Resurrecting a character from a Torchlight Hardcore game is an example.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

CBrachyrhynchos wrote...

Interestingly, more and more game publishers are adopting cheating-detection systems for SP games on Steam. Resurrecting a character from a Torchlight Hardcore game is an example.

Based simply on this thread alone, it would seem that there are more and more game creators that may insist on following the rules they used to craft the mod. But as NWN1 had different creators . designers, and offerend varied rule, the same is not said for it and this thread.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...

So the same commands are 'cheats' because they are reached using another method for the Player client? Why am I not surprised at this logic. And you seem to omit the ref made to there being more than a single set of rules from which to choose.

No.

I am just pointing out the errors in the latest rationalization. The manual thing was originally about designer intent, which he claimed we had no way of knowing. I stated that if designers intended you to use cheat codes to play the game, they would have made them available in the manual. But there is no way you would know how to cheat using the manual that came with the game.

He just made an erroneous claim that such information was in the manual.

But the instructions for using the command line in the DM client will not work in the regular game. So my original statement stands.

This was never about the broader cheating issue, just the designer intent issue.

Of course since then we have had actual mod designers show up and explicitly tell you their intent, and you guys just attacked and argued with them. Apparently hearing the actual designer intent isn't good enough, just a reason to get more defensive and engage in more convoluted rationalization.

This thread took a turn into the twilight zone with levels of self deception and rationalizing I didn't expect to see over something as trivial as cheating in a single player game.

If people get so defensive, rationalize so heavily over something as trivial as cheating in a computer games, then no wonder some so easily fall for 911 CIA conspiracy nonsense, or buy the corporate line denying Human impact on Global Warming. They have simply made a decision and have become so invested, they rationalize away any pesky facts.

Heinlein really nailed it when he said: "Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal"      
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 11 mai 2011 - 03:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

No.

I am just pointing out the errors in the latest rationalization. It was originally about designer intent, which he claimed we had no way of knowing. I stated that if designers intended you to use cheat codes to play the game, they would have made them availabl in the manual. But there is no way you would know how to cheat using the manual that came with the game.

He just made an erroneous claim that such information was in the manual.

But the instructions for using the command line in the DM client will not work in the regular game. So that statement stands.

This was never about the broader cheating issue, just the designer intent issue.

Of course since then we have had actual mod designers show up and explicitly tell you their intent, and you guys just attacked and argued with them. Apparently hearing the actual designer intent isn't good enough, just a reason to get more defensive and engage in more convoluted rationalizaiton.

This thread took a turn into the twilight zone with levels of self deception and rationalizing I didn't expect to see over something as trivial as cheating in a single player game.

If people get so defensive, rationalize so heavily over something as trivial as cheating in a computer games, then no wonder some so easily fall for 911 CIA conspiracy nonsense, or buy the corporate line denying Human impact on Global Warming. They have simply made a decision and have become so invested, they rationalize away any pesky facts.

Heinlein really nailed it when he said: "Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal"

It was not I that began all this by slapping labels on folks for suggesting that Game Implemented command codes would fix and/or enhance the game. There are only so many sticks & stones I am willing to endure.

And I am somewhat apethetic if said designers had intent for their choice of rules, as we are discussing a solo NWN1 game. And while some profess that it does not matter, some continue to toss the sticks & labels..

The idea that 'Clean Play' is the only pure way to play this solo game seems to be irrational.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 11 mai 2011 - 03:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...

The idea that 'Clean Play' is the only pure way to play this solo game seems to be irrational.

I don't think I said that. But I really don't get your point here. In this context "clean" and "pure" are close to synonymous. So indicating they are would not be irrational. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

The idea that 'Clean Play' is the only pure way to play this solo game seems to be irrational.

I don't think I said that. But I really don't get your point here. In this context "clean" and "pure" are close to synonymous. So indicating they are would not be irrational. 

* NWN1 has varied rules; the default (ie; Clean Play) settings are not the only way to play.
* NWN1 included Command codes as well as other optional rules.
* NWN1 includes a DM Client, Multiplayer, and Toolkit to every player.

* Adding other rules be it the optional Difficuly Slider, the nwn.ini, command codes,DM Client, Multiplayer, or Toolkit does not equate to cheating in solo game.

* To believe that others must adhere to a single set of defined rules in a solo game seems irrational.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Elhanan wrote...

* Adding other rules be it the optional Difficuly Slider, the nwn.ini, command codes,DM Client, Multiplayer, or Toolkit does not equate to cheating in solo game.

Yes I am aware of your rationalizations around this.

But even if you convince a few people not to call these activities ( giving yourself unlimited gold, buying all the uber gear in the shops, giving yourself restricted items from the mod, etc...) cheating, it is unlikely any of them would call this "style" of play  "pure". 

The post I quoted, you said it was irrational to equate "clean" and "pure". That is baffling nonsense.

It makes much less sense to equate "pure" with your "style" of play where you give yourself what ever you want to gain gear/take shortcuts.

I don't think anything has done more harm to the "it's not cheating" argument than the absolutely baffling level of defensiveness and rationalizing lately.  But it is hard to look away from it, in a train wreck kind of way...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

* Adding other rules be it the optional Difficuly Slider, the nwn.ini, command codes,DM Client, Multiplayer, or Toolkit does not equate to cheating in solo game.

Yes I am aware of your rationalizations around this.

But even if you convince a few people not to call these activities ( giving yourself unlimited gold, buying all the uber gear in the shops, giving yourself restricted items from the mod, etc...) cheating, it is unlikely any of them would call this "style" of play  "pure". 

The post I quoted, you said it was irrational to equate "clean" and "pure". That is baffling nonsense.

It makes much less sense to equate "pure" with your "style" of play where you give yourself what ever you want to gain gear/take shortcuts.

I don't think anything has done more harm to the "it's not cheating" argument than the absolutely baffling level of defensiveness and rationalizing lately.  But it is hard to look away from it, in a train wreck kind of way...

I ain't going for a majority of concensus; rarely care.

I am not calling your style of play pure, or mine; was using the term sarcastically to define your 'Clean' style of play, as you seem to attach a stigma to anything else.

Little baffling about it, though it might be for you.

If one plays solo, choose the rules and settings you desire, try and adhere to them, and have fun! Just be careful when posting feedback....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I say legit. I dont think that everything is cheating. If you use toolset to modify a singleplayer (which is not possible unless you know the trick btw) and you for example add a new locations I would call this modding. If you install Tony-K AI or ILKAYs and mine spellfix pack I would call this fixes. If you install acp combat styles or icons overrides I would call it graphical enhance. But I can't see how anyone can think that starting with more gold than inteded is legit, thus mod, fix or graphical enhance etc. You just trying to rationalize it and thats the issue. The cheat is still cheat even if you convince yourself that you would get that ammount of gold anyway (later). The advantages of this are very clear and was already said.

I dont really understand, try to use maphack in Diablo and then tell the diablo community that its not cheating cos you do it in singleplayer. Noone would agreed there. Noone.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 mai 2011 - 05:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               This thread is getting dull and repetitive without the participation of the guy whose post spawned it. So come on Kail, get stuck in!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I say legit. I dont think that everything is cheating. If you use toolset to modify a singleplayer (which is not possible unless you know the trick btw) and you for example add a new locations I would call this modding. If you install Tony-K AI or ILKAYs and mine spellfix pack I would call this fixes. If you install acp combat styles or icons overrides I would call it graphical enhance.

But I can't see how anyone can think that starting with more gold than inteded is legit, thus mod, fix or graphical enhance etc. You just trying to rationalize it and thats the issue. The cheat is still cheat even if you convince yourself that you would get that ammount of gold anyway (later). The advantages of this are very clear and was already said.

I dont really understand, try to use maphack in Diablo and then tell the diablo community that its not cheating cos you do it in singleplayer. Noone would agreed there. Noone.

The edited portion is my problem. What you or anyone else consider to be right, fair, and 'legit' does not define what may be seen as 'legi't for another for solo play; only the indv Player themselves.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 11 mai 2011 - 06:24 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Yes but what you saying is applicable on anything like cheating in multiplayer, so im not cheater if I cheat in multiplayer cos I dont define it as cheating. Totally insane.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 11 mai 2011 - 06:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yes but what you saying is applicable on anything like cheating in multiplayer, so im not cheater if I cheat in multiplayer cos I dont define it as cheating. Totally insane.

Not at all; big diff from m/p gameplay, and using the Multi-player Client for solo play.
 
In m/p format, the rules agreed to by the group determines fair play. If I added gold in this context, then I most likely would be cheating. Pls re-read the thread if you can stomach it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 11 mai 2011 - 11:05 .