The "is it cheating or not" thread

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

If you're using console commands to give yourself new items/gold/experience, "auto-sell" items, modify power progressions, whatever, effectively, you're cheating. However, by trying to rationalize your actions as not cheating, you're implicitly but definitively declaring that "cheating is bad" and saying "I don't want to be called a cheater". You're attaching your own personal stigma to the label of a "cheater".

This.

Well, perhaps it is because we are not rationalizing, and not cheating; just using the same tools that were used as the designers to re-design and improve the game as we see best, as it is our mod now.

*not available for re-sale; some prices may vary*
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 09 mai 2011 - 05:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AmstradHero]

               Wow. Simply, wow. Okay, I'm out of this thread from now on, as it's obviously pointless to try and engage in reasoned discussion here.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

So, from the selfless point of view of the original creators, no matter which definition of the word "cheat" you apply, it has no true meaning in a D&D based SP game. Maybe in some other SP video games, but not D&D. In D&D, the DM's decision is final.

But the difference is that while you get only rules with D&D and you had to create "The Game" and then you could set your own rules,  in NWN and any other RPG game based on D&D rules you already start with "The Game" which has its rules already set.

This is a prime example of what I meant when I said some of you don't understand the dynamics of a SP session. The module isn't "the game". It's merely a setting. Just like back in the old days when we used to go to the game store and buy a "campaign" to use with our "game". The players and the DM decide how the game will be played. They decide the "house rules". The module/campaign only dictates where it will take place. Bioware and WotC gave the "guidelines" with NWN and it's game engine, but they also gave the tool set and console commands for the players and DM's to make "house rules" and their own settings/campaigns.

Again, for those whose control issues won't allow them to let go of their misperceptions, in SP the player is the party AND the DM. The SP player decides how the "game" will be played. The module is merely the place where the game happens.

So, by your (meaning the "you're all cheaters" camp) definition, anyone who ever played PnP, and made "house rules" along with the other people involved, are all cheaters. Man up and get over it. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...
Again, for those whose control issues won't allow them to let go of their misperceptions, in SP the player is the party AND the DM. The SP player decides how the "game" will be played. The module is merely the place where the game happens.

Just more ridiculous rationalizations. You are not DM'ing yourself. You aren't creating new surprises for the player. You aren't sitting on the other side of encounters and inhabiting NPC characters to give the more interesting conversations. You aren't taking over NPCs spell-casters in battle to make fight more intelligently. You aren't popping in to the NPCs to reveal more clues when the PC goes astray. etc..

There is no creative element of DM'ing involved, All the creative work was done by the module designer. You are simply cheating, giving yourself uber gear. The only thing remotely creative here are the rationalizations you use to fool yourself.

Perhaps not universal among the "No cheating possible in Single player" gang, but recent posts have displayed an extraordinary level of self deception and rationalizing. Perhaps this is the missing ingredient. My understanding of the brains reward mechanism is that reward is correlated with effort. Shortcut the effort with cheats and you shortcut the rewards. Therefore it is more rewarding to play clean. But with significant self deception, I guess you can fool yourself into thinking you aren't taking shortcuts and you still get a that same reward.

There is heavy defensiveness because the self deception needs protection to enable cheating to deliver the same reward.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

AmstradHero wrote...

Wow. Simply, wow. Okay, I'm out of this thread from now on, as it's obviously pointless to try and engage in reasoned discussion here.

Why? Because while I admire your efforts, I do not feel the need to require it for my games? For myself in gaming, it is NOT the economy sir.

Or is because that I contend that once the dinner leaves the restaurant or kitchen, ir is now mine to season, add catsup, and eat as much or little as I find palatable? I do not fault the chef for giving me over-salted cuisine if a re-salted it, but will enjoy the meal a whole lot better when it is consumed my way.

Sorry if I offend, but I not only believe my stance to be true, but encourage other players that may be posting frustration in a sim way. In m/p, the only time I even hit the Tilde key is due to operator error while attempting to push the Tab search funtions.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...
Again, for those whose control issues won't allow them to let go of their misperceptions, in SP the player is the party AND the DM. The SP player decides how the "game" will be played. The module is merely the place where the game happens.

Just more ridiculous rationalizations. You are not DM'ing yourself. You aren't creating new surprises for the player. You aren't sitting on the other side of encounters and inhabiting NPC characters to give the more interesting conversations. You aren't taking over NPCs spell-casters in battle to make fight more intelligently. You aren't popping in to the NPCs to reveal more clues when the PC goes astray. etc..

Of course the single player is DM'ing himself. No one else is doing those things you mention. The module designer isn't there, only the scripts he chose. The computer can't be a DM. All it does is handle the mechanics of the dice rolls, scripts, and GUI. All those things you just pointed out have to be role played by the single player. He's the only living, breathing human in the equation.

Obviously, when you play an SP campaign, you aren't RP'ing, you're just playing a part in someone elses movie.

Lowlander wrote...

There is no creative element of DM'ing involved, All the creative work was done by the module designer. You are simply cheating, giving yourself uber gear. The only thing remotely creative here are the rationalizations you use to fool yourself.

As I pointed out above, the creative aspect is in the RP'ing of the player. The only thing the module designer is responsible for is the setting, because he certainly isn't the DM. He's not present when the "game" is happening.

And you, as usual, make accusations against people without having any facts to back them up. I don't give myself "uber" gear. I make my self "different" weapons than are available, but they are no more powerfull than other types of weapons available in the campaign. I don't always like to use the weapons the campaign designer decides to make abundant. I do like my dye pots, though.

Lowlander wrote...

Perhaps not universal among the "No cheating possible in Single player" gang, but recent posts have displayed an extraordinary level of self deception and rationalizing. Perhaps this is the missing ingredient. 

Perhaps, but more likely the missing ingredient is that your arrogance won't allow you to see beyond your narrow view of how D&D was intended to be played. It isn't a movie, and there is no script for the player. You have to use your imagination. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

If you're using console commands to give yourself new items/gold/experience, "auto-sell" items, modify power progressions, whatever, effectively, you're cheating. However, by trying to rationalize your actions as not cheating, you're implicitly but definitively declaring that "cheating is bad" and saying "I don't want to be called a cheater". You're attaching your own personal stigma to the label of a "cheater".

This.

Errrr sorry guys, but you have missed the point of this discussion. It is Lowlander who is using the perjorative stigma against EVERYONE who admits to cheating (except himself of course). So this includes you AmstradHero.

If there is no stigma attached, then I think we don't care what word people use. I know I have stated that. I know Gregor has stated that. And I think others belong in this group as well.

To be very clear, there are at least 3 groups in this discussion now:

1: Those who want to use the word cheat and declare there is no perjorative stigma attached to the word when applied to SP. (Andarian, Amstradhero).

2: Those who want to use the word cheat and insist it carries a perjorative element which makes the SP cheater as bad as an academic cheat or a forum liar. (Lowlander)

3: Those who don't care which word is used so long as there is no perjorative element. (Myself, Gregor and possibly others, but I'll let them speak for themselves.)

I agree it might have been confusing from the thread title, but the title is how the argument was expressed in the original discussion which spawned this thread because the only definition in use was the perjorative one. The "It isn't cheating" argument, as far as I understand it anyway, is that because the word cheating carries a perjorative element and there should be no perjorative element when describing SP actions, then it is the wrong word to use. but actually, it is simply the wrong meaning of the word being applied by Lowlander that is the root and cause of this thread..

So, to summarise, there is one person in this thread who is trying to say an SP cheater deserves the same disrespect as an academic cheat and a forum liar. That is the position we are arguing against.

Lowlander wrote...The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

Lowlander wrote...

I shouldn't be surprised in this shortcut, instant gratifications, cheating is OK if you don't get caught, society that so many just use cheat codes to pimp their characters rather than deal with the constraints of the game. But this Attitude makes me sick.   ../../../images/forum/emoticons/sick.png

... Heck these days people are more proud of themselves when the get good results from academic cheating:

http://www.cheatingc...mic-dishonesty/

Lowlander wrote...
When I am talking to a cheater, what is the weight of their opinion on anything if they just take shortcuts routinely.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 09 mai 2011 - 06:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Shia Luck wrote...
So, to summarise, there is one person in this thread who is trying to say an SP cheater deserves the same disrespect as an academic cheat and a forum liar. That is the position we are arguing against.

This is, of course, completely wrong again. You are again misreading. Academic cheating is significantly worse. I have repeatedly said single player cheating is not as bad as any form of cheating where other people are actually cheated. 

But given how much the worse offense (Academic cheating) occurs, it shouldn't be surprising that minor cheating like computer games is also rampant.  I see both as symptoms of a society increasingly choosing shortcuts and instant gratification. That overall trend in society dismays me.  But just because I see similar roots, does not make game cheating as bad as academic cheating.

I absolutely do devalue the module/campaign feedback/reviews of anyone who cheats through them by giving themselves unlimited gold and buying all the high end gear in the shops. They are cheating their way through and IMO have no reliable information on what the challenge level is for players who play clean. While a clean character may well have to fear running into a pack of rats in his mundane leather armor, the cheater with magic plate is nearly invulnerable... How could that feedback matter to me.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 09 mai 2011 - 08:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Elhanan wrote...

And if you are seeing unaffordable items in shops, I would say the the mod design is flawed; not the Player getting them.

My bad; should have read 'may be flawed', as it is speculative in nature.

And what Shia said!


               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

... I absolutely do devalue the module/campaign feedback/reviews of anyone who cheats through them by giving themselves unlimited gold and buying all the high end gear in the shops. They are cheating their way through and IMO have no reliable information on what the challenge level is for players who play clean.

You have the edited part right, which of course has only as much weight and worth as others; not more or less. And you are welcome to skip all my reviews and feedback since they are of no value to you.

Have fun playing clean; just watch your step, as it may be hard to see with your nose turned up that high.


               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Lowlander wrote...

I absolutely do devalue the module/campaign feedback/reviews of anyone who cheats through them by giving themselves unlimited gold and buying all the high end gear in the shops. They are cheating their way through and IMO have no reliable information on what the challenge level is for players who play clean. While a clean character may well have to fear running into a pack of rats in his mundane leather armor, the cheater with magic plate is nearly invulnerable... How could that feedback matter to me.

Nice attempt at spin.

Lowlander wrote...
When I am talking to a cheater, what is the weight of their opinion on anything if they just take shortcuts routinely.

Lowlander wrote...The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               Sorry, folks. I'm with AmstradHero on this one: the anti-cheating line on this thread just isn't making any sense to me. A few final points, and then I'm out of here as well.

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

This is a prime example of what I meant when I said some of you don't understand the dynamics of a SP session. The module isn't "the game". It's merely a setting. Just like back in the old days when we used to go to the game store and buy a "campaign" to use with our "game".

That isn't only wrong, but presumptuous. When I build a NWN mod and put it online for you to download, what I am providing to you is emphatically NOT a "setting" of any kind, and certainly not one akin to the old P&P adventure modules. It's nothing less and nothing more than a linear role-playing game, a carefully written and designed play experience built by me in order to tell my story.

Again, for those whose control issues won't allow them to let go of their misperceptions, in SP the player is the party AND the DM. The SP player decides how the "game" will be played. The module is merely the place where the game happens.

I can only assume from your remarks that you've never actually built a NWN SP module -- because it's far, far more than just "a place where the game happens." And the idea that someone can be both player and DM in an RPG at the same time makes a mockery of what it means for something to be an RPG in the first place.

You can't play the game and run the game at the same time. A game by its nature requires the separation of playing and rule-making. Without the separation of those roles in an RPG, what you're doing is not playing a game, but simply fantasizing with accessories. That's the whole reason for the role of the DM as a separate and unique participant in an RPG in the first place. He's there to make game play for the other players possible, by providing the complex, dynamic, highly adaptive, and external rule-making context that can only be provided by another human imagination.

An SP CRPG is structurally different from a multiplayer game (whether P&P or computer based). In a single player game, it is NOT the "player" who acts as the DM. The DM is the author/builder, who runs the game by "remote control" through the intermediary mechanism of the resources and game software that he has configured for it. It's only in a multplayer game that you can have a DM who is a direct and active participant.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 10 mai 2011 - 03:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

Sorry, folks. I'm with AmstradHero on this one: the anti-cheating line on this thread just isn't making any rational sense. A few final points, and then I'm out of here as well.

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

This is a prime example of what I meant when I said some of you don't understand the dynamics of a SP session. The module isn't "the game". It's merely a setting. Just like back in the old days when we used to go to the game store and buy a "campaign" to use with our "game".

That is presumptuous nonsense. When I build a NWN mod and put it online for you to download, what I am providing to you is emphatically NOT a "setting" of any kind, and certainly not one akin to the old P&P adventure modules. It's nothing less and nothing more than a linear role-playing game, a carefully written and designed play experience built by me in order to tell my story.

So in this example, the module is the DM because it tells your story, or you remain to be the DM from afar? Strange; seems I must have either have a grunch of DM's stored on my old computer, or you may have failed to notice the flaws in your story, and that we fixed them. Must have stepped away for a slice, I guess.

Again, for those whose control issues won't allow them to let go of their misperceptions, in SP the player is the party AND the DM. The SP player decides how the "game" will be played. The module is merely the place where the game happens.

I can only assume from your remarks that you've never actually built a NWN SP module -- because it's far, far more than just "a place where the game happens." And the idea that someone can be both player and DM in an RPG at the same time makes a mockery of what it means for something to be an RPG in the first place.

You can't play the game and run the game at the same time. A game by its nature requires the separation of playing and rule-making. Without the separation of those roles in an RPG, what you're doing is not playing a game, but simply fantasizing with accessories. That's the whole reason for the role of the DM as a separate and unique participant in an RPG in the first place. He's there to make game play for the other players possible, by providing the complex, dynamic, highly adaptive, and external rule-making context that can only be provided by another human imagination.

An SP CRPG is structurally different from a multiplayer game (whether P&P or computer based). In a single player game, it is NOT the "player" who acts as the DM. The DM is the author/builder, who runs the game by "remote control" through the intermediary mechanism of the resources and game software that he has configured for it. It's only in a multplayer game that you can have a DM who is a direct and active participant.

Sorry, but as Ser Gygax never attended any of my weekly sessions for lo' those many years, you stopped being the DM when you gave your tale to the Vault. In m/p, that task is oft designated to the one wanting to run the DM client, and it may surprise you to note that they often 'Play' at the same time. In much the same way, the Player assumes the mantle of DM, and sets and molds the story being told with their rules, guidelines, and parameters. They choose the story to play that session; not the DM they wish to tell it.

Besides, you seem rather stressed already in your role as Mod Designer. All those examples of me, my, personal pronouns of choice, etc in seperating us in our roles as Players have appeared to left you with what is sometimes called 'I' strain. Thanks for the tales; now leave the driving to us.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 10 mai 2011 - 03:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

Nice attempt at spin.

Clarification not spin.  I was writing off the cuff in generalities. Obviously there would be aspects of the game that may not be colored by cheating...

We aren't writing legal documents here. Keep that in mind as you mine my past comments for gotchas.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Lowlander wrote...

... I absolutely do devalue the module/campaign feedback/reviews of anyone who cheats through them by giving themselves unlimited gold and buying all the high end gear in the shops. They are cheating their way through and IMO have no reliable information on what the challenge level is for players who play clean. While a clean character may well have to fear running into a pack of rats in his mundane leather armor, the cheater with magic plate is nearly invulnerable... How could that feedback matter to me.

In your opinion, 'they are cheating their way through"; tis not fact. And while you may devalue opposing opinion, a few others have been grateful for mine.

For feedback, one could tell you that killing rats is overdone, and may detract from the story. One might be able to inform you of exploits seen along the way, isues with other encounters like spawning critters on top of the party, glaring typos, technical oversights, places where one might become stuck in walls, camera fails, lack of resting areas, kudos for dialogue choices, NPC observations, etc; maybe even inform them that the magic plate makes one invulnerable, and should be removed from the starting shops.

Of couse said info is unreliable and without value; just to be clear....