Monk Kama build

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

                What SP cheating wrecks is the consistent context of the basic module to compare builds. All along I was talking about how the builds stacks up in the Official Campaign.  When you start spawning in Uber gear via command console, we are no longer discussing that Official Campaign as a context.

Using the Official Campaign establishes a bounds, once you open the door to cheating there are no bounds and we have to spell out in great detail what is allowed and not allowed.

Are we limited to what has spawn codes for items??? Or can we build crafted gear and import that? What about cheats that directly impact the character?

While you may kid yourself that single player cheating isn't cheating, in my book it is. When you do it in the privacy of your home, no one is harmed, but you should strictly treat it is TMI to talk about it. 

When you bring it into public, you are cheating those of us who want the context of a cheat free game as a basis for discussion. I would hope that is most of us.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Vandhaal]

               Hell JML Mon Ami!
last reply made 16 days ago?...must mean you are somewhat still alive and kicking :-) Hope you are doing well ( als with your Never winter nights stuff) Trioed to email you a couple of times but did not work . Well you know where and how to find me...oh yes and i have added a new place for old times sake http://vandhaal.wordpress.com/

btw jmlzemaggo??? :-) '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               

The Vandhaal wrote...

Hell JML Mon Ami!
last reply made 16 days ago?...must mean you are somewhat still alive and kicking :-) Hope you are doing well ( als with your Never winter nights stuff) Trioed to email you a couple of times but did not work . Well you know where and how to find me...oh yes and i have added a new place for old times sake http://vandhaal.wordpress.com/

btw jmlzemaggo??? :-) '>

I just couldn't believe it when I saw that name... What are you doing here! 
Sorry folks, this's got nothing to do with a monk build really, so I guess we're going to switch to a private area.
But I'm so glad you found me here! Old and new times sake... 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

MrZork wrote...

...but I'd like to note that cheating doesn't always require that the person who gets cheated must be a different person than the cheater. The difference is that SP cheating occurs whenever the player thinks he is cheating and deprives himself of some of the fun and challenge he expects of the game.

   
...and notably, Kail didn't use the word 'cheat'. It was used against him as a challenge. So I think Gregor's point still stands, no?

I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC. And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP", which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater.

I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds - especially ones designed for a particular situation, like this one - when one is willing to use tools not mentioned by the person asking for build advice and not intended for normal play in that situation in such a way that they significantly changes the value of each build. I actually play a somewhat tweaked version of the OP, when I play it, because the extra options make it more fun to me, but I wouldn't propose a build for someone else based on my modifications because he won't be using them and no one would know what I was talking about.


Back to the OP's requested build, I agree that Blind Fight is probably a better feat to take early on in this build than Toughness. Dealing with the various Shadows, Invisible Stalkers, and even Darkness-casting drow in the OC makes Blind Fight pretty valuable. And, the re-roll in the case of misses versus concealed opponents makes it even more worthwhile to players who have a high APR. If I were reposting my suggested build, I would swap the two feats to get Blind Fight earlier.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

So you advocate cheating and giving yourself uber gear to compensate? 

Cheating is not possible in SP.

If altering balance is what you are concerned about then kamas, as you pointed out, are lacking enchantment and properties wise in the OC. Dropping some in game, according to what is proper to drop given where in the campaign you are, is fixing a weapon availability issue.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 02 mai 2011 - 07:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

MrZork wrote...
I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC.

I was saying to correct the kama availability issue in the OC with a practical method.

But indeed cheating does not exist in the OC (or in any SP environment).

And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP", which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater.

Not at all, it's based on the fact that you can't break any rules in the OC since it is you to shape them up with your actions. Whatever you choose to do it is allowed, so no way to do anything that is not allowed.

I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds - especially ones designed for a particular situation, like this one - when one is willing to use tools not mentioned by the person asking for build advice and not intended for normal play in that situation in such a way that they significantly changes the value of each build.

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

MrZork wrote...
I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC...

Only in MP.

MrZork wrote...
...And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP"...

That's exactly my interpretation too. If we're wrong, hopefully he'll correct us.

MrZork wrote...
...which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater...

Errr, I think that is not the idea. There's a logical argument making cheating impossible.  But for me anyway, It's not about whether anyone can catch the "cheater", but whether anyone feels cheated. If a player changes the conditions of the game in SP and doesn't feel cheated by their own actions, and doesn't claim scores/acheivements/whatever as if they hadn't changed the conditions.., in other words, if, they admit to changing the conditions, (or if you prefer, that they cheated), then where exactly is the cheat? Who has lost something or been cheated?

For example, if a player chooses to specialise in a certain weapon and there no examples of that weapon dropping, (a situation many SP players experience in many community modules, and, it seems, the OC and EXP), the player may feel cheated by the developers of the game for not thinking of him/her. If s/he chooses to bring in weapons that increase enjoyment of the game fr the nly person affected... how has anyone been cheated?

MrZork wrote...
I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds

If someone had said a kama wielder is better because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But no one has said that, no?  Like I seem to keep mentioning. The following fact is not in doubt.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

So aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 02 mai 2011 - 09:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...
 the only reason why unarmed i sbetter
is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix,

Shia Luck wrote...
If someone had said a kama wielder is better because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But no one has said that, no?

Above your post is essentially the same thing re-worded. Saying the only reason they unarmed is better is because Kamas are lacking and you can fix that...

Unarmed is better. Only by twinking in overpowered gear can you make up the difference.

All weapons drops for every class seem to be limited to +3, why do Monks need significantly better Kamas imported?? Or should we all be importing +5 weapons??

It seems the same people I see complain how easy the Official Campaigns is, are the ones advocating using debug commands to pimp out their characters. A correlation perhaps.

If there is no such thing as cheating, why even discuss builds? A little SetSTR 99 here and a dm_givegold 999999 there and dm_giveXP 999999  there and your build is all good.

I don't cheat. When you do, you are not playing the same game as me.

I shouldn't be surprised in this shortcut, instant gratifications, cheating is OK if you don't get caught, society that so many just use cheat codes to pimp their characters rather than deal with the constraints of the game. But this Attitude makes me sick.   

I can't give myself an unfound weapon or it devalues the game for me... Most people don't feel that way. Heck these days people are more proud of themselves when the get good results from academic cheating:

http://www.cheatingc...mic-dishonesty/
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 02 mai 2011 - 10:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

Neither this is valid argument. Why is unarmed worse in most environments? Because gloves cannot be enchanted with spell. An issu whis is easy to fix!

Or because they cannot have enhancement bonus/keen, also easy to fix...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
 the only reason why unarmed i sbetter
is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix,

Shia Luck wrote...
If someone had said a kama wielder is better because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But no one has said that, no?

Above your post is essentially the same thing re-worded. Saying the only reason they unarmed is better is because Kamas are lacking and you can fix that...

I disagree entirely... I am sure Kail doesn't need me to argue for him but seeing as it was directed to me I'll point out parts of Kail's posts people seem to be ignoring.

Kail Pendragon wrote...Builds are first compared on an even
field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular
environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another.

Kail Pendragon wrote... haven't touched the OC in a long while....
So
aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid
magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and
possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.

Kail Pendragon wrote...
In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

Lowlander wrote...
Unarmed is better. Only by twinking in overpowered gear can you make up the difference.

In the context of the OC based on your reporting of the gear.....   Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. NO ONE is disagreeing with this !!!!  How many times do we have to agree? 

Lowlander wrote...
All weapons drops for every class seem to be limited to +3, why do Monks need significantly better Kamas imported?? Or should we all be importing +5 weapons??

I thought you said ...

Lowlander wrote...... I actually tested.  As a 17th level monk save-reload mined a boss weapon drop chest in Ch 3.

Gloves dropped are vastly superior. All were +5 AB, + D6 elemental damage. (no lesser gloves dropped).
The only Kamas with any special abilities dropped were +1.
Vanillas +3 Kamas also drop. It would be silly to use a +1 kama to get  +1 regen in combat.

So +3 Kamas with no extras vs +5 gloves with D6 elemental.

Lowlander wrote......
It seems the same people I see complain how easy the Official Campaigns is, are the ones advocating using debug commands to pimp out their characters. A correlation perhaps.

Personally I play games at least once through without changing anything. With NWN OC I never played it again because the exp and community stuff is so much better. But when I do replay something, then I may change things. Does that make me a bad person?

Lowlander wrote...
I shouldn't be surprised in this shortcut, instant gratifications society that so many just use cheat codes to pimp their characters rather than deal with the constraints of the game. But this Attitude makes me sick.   

In MP my NWN friends and I stick to very strict rules about equipment. Otherwise we'd be cheating. In SP tho???
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 02 mai 2011 - 10:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               Gloves are Gloves, not quite in the same class as weapons. +5 gloves, get +0 on damage, it is only a to hit enhancement. D6 elemental averages 3.5 damage which places them similar to +3  weapon drops. That isn't what makes Unarmed monks great, it is the D20 unarmed damage. But there seemed to be a view that available Kamas were better than the available gloves, so I checked and that clearly isn't the case.

Also how easily is it to cheat in better Kamas? I don't know spawn codes for better Kamas and the OP is a new player, so unless you actually give him instructions he isn't going to know where to get these better Kamas to pimp his character.

As mentioned previously. I still consider it cheating in SP. What do you think it is? People search for "cheat codes".

I realize I may be in a minority in a world were most students cheat and are proud of the outcomes they achieve with cheating. In everything I do cheating devalues the outcome, that applies in games/school/work. SP/MP whatever.

I am less interested in discussing anything around the game with those who do cheat, because we aren't talking about the same environment.  Like when you said you don't care about EXP penalties in your builds, now I wonder is that because you just give yourself a little dm_giveXP you feel entitled to because of that penalty.

So for me cheating devalues outcomes, in any environment. The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 02 mai 2011 - 11:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_VPJ]

               

As mentioned previously. I still consider it cheating in SP. What do you think it is? People search for "cheat codes".

I realize I may be in a minority in a world were most students cheat and are proud of the outcomes they achieve with cheating. In everything I do cheating devalues the outcome, that applies in games/school/work. SP/MP whatever.

So you play through one time only, with no reloads?  Isn't knowledge of what is around the next corner more detrimental to whatever lofty plateau you aspire to in gaming than using the console to spawn a couple of +5 kamas?

So for me cheating devalues outcomes, in any environment. The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

Really?  I can think of many reasons to cheat, use house rules, or whatever one wants to call it.  Maybe someone's in a hurry...maybe they've played through several times and want to use a kama-wielding monk, but there's limited gear.  Whatever.  It's their game and the idea is to enjoy it without ruining someone else's enjoyment. 

Frankly, if you get pleasure Rambo-ing your way through an SP game on its hardest setting without reloading, I wish you well.  But don't expect me to gawk at your elite gaming prowess or share your righteous indignation that others may use the console for whatever reason they like.


Edit:  Spelling correction
               
               

               

                     Modifié par VPJ, 03 mai 2011 - 02:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Lowlander wrote...

I still consider it cheating in SP.

What you consider it to be is irrelvant and does not change what it is. There is no cheating in SP, It is simply impossible to cheat in SP, period.

What do you think it is?

Game customization

People search for "cheat codes". 

This is one of the dumbest thing you could say (if you need to be explained why, I have no interest in discussing it). And in NWN there are no cheat codes, but rather consolle commands.

I realize I may be in a minority in a world were most students cheat and are proud of the outcomes they achieve with cheating. In everything I do cheating devalues the outcome, that applies in games/school/work. SP/MP whatever.

I am less interested in discussing anything around the game with those who do cheat, because we aren't talking about the same environment.  Like when you said you don't care about EXP penalties in your builds, now I wonder is that because you just give yourself a little dm_giveXP you feel entitled to because of that penalty.

So for me cheating devalues outcomes, in any environment. The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

This is getting really ludicrous. SP= single player. There's no one else but the (single) player. There is no cheating at all, the rules are (dynamically) set by the player herself.

And who is making undue comparisons here? We all have come to the conclusion that in the OC unarmed is better because of the relative availability of gloves and kamas. This has nothing to do with the OP playing her own personalized OC with better kamas available for his/her own enjoyment. Or playing it with a lvl 40 character, 255 in all abilities and uber gear for the matter. Why should we go through such trivialities and self evident points?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed is better is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

Neither this is valid argument. Why is unarmed worse in most environments? Because gloves cannot be enchanted with spell. An issu whis is easy to fix!

Or because they cannot have enhancement bonus/keen, also easy to fix...

That is changing the way the game works vs changing availability of gear in a given environment. Different stuff. Doable, surely (well, within technical limits); desirable, sometimes; not the same league though.

I offered the OP an easy way to put the kama monk on a more even field with the unarmed one in the OC environment for his/her potential better enjoyment. If you want do the same and offer your solution.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

This isn't valid argument.

If we would consider this in making builds we could also say the same for unarmed. There are mltiple +10 gloves with different elements available.

What is not a valid argument? The OP might find kamas lacking compared to gloves, he/she can spawn better ones in. There is an unbalance in weapon availability which is fixable. End of story.