Author Topic: Monk Kama build  (Read 3755 times)

Legacy_Grophos

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2011, 09:21:45 pm »


               Race Halfing or Elf
Dex based
If you want the max amount of attacks per round and that is your primary focus.
Monk levels 1,2,3,4,5,6 Rouge 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 Fighter 17,18,19,20, Rogue rest monk or fighter ocassionaly for DISC dump.
Take in this order
Weapon Finesse Ambidexterity then as soon as they become available TWF chain.

Strategy: Sneak knockdown deal a 1d6+10-20d6 10 times per round.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Grophos, 26 avril 2011 - 08:22 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2011, 09:38:24 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Which easily happens in a magic rich environment like the OC.
IIRC what is available in the OC, false.


I would like to know what gear is there that you think compensates for the  difference between D6 kama and D20 fist damage. PM me if you think it is too spoilerish.

My recall is quite fresh as I just played the OC start to finish in the last week. I wasn't playing a Kama wielder, but the Kamas I saw were quite weak, none of the special forged weapons is a Kama. There were no uber bracers/non monk gauntlets that would really give the Kama wielder a significant advantage.

A Kama monk isn't going to touch end game damage of a Fist monk in the OC from what I have seen of the OC  items this week.

It is all back to the OP about how much he values being a "Pure Monk" which is a better unarmed choice vs how much he values being a Kama monk, which is really the better multi-class option.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2011, 09:38:59 pm »


               You dont have to use kamas or unarmed every time. You dont even need focus/improved critical on them, so if you find out situation where kamas/fists wont be effective, just use fists/kamas and thats it. As I said many times on these forums, you dont need build for OC, just some basic understanding of skills/feats. So if you want to use kamas, get ambidexterity, two weapon fighting and improved one which needs 15 dex or get one level of ranger. If you dont want to see kamas at all, take other defensive/combat feats instead.

Lowlander wrote...

It is all back to the OP about how much
he values being a "Pure Monk" which is a better unarmed choice vs how
much he values being a Kama monk, which is really the better multi-class
option.

Agreed with you on the unarmed issue btw. Though you dont need to use two kamas every time, fists are still better for pure monk in OC.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 26 avril 2011 - 08:41 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2011, 01:34:22 am »


               

Lowlander wrote...

I would like to know what gear is there that you think compensates for the  difference between D6 kama and D20 fist damage. PM me if you think it is too spoilerish.

My recall is quite fresh as I just played the OC start to finish in the last week. I wasn't playing a Kama wielder, but the Kamas I saw were quite weak, none of the special forged weapons is a Kama. There were no uber bracers/non monk gauntlets that would really give the Kama wielder a significant advantage.

A Kama monk isn't going to touch end game damage of a Fist monk in the OC from what I have seen of the OC  items this week.

I might easily misremember, haven't touched the OC in a long while.

So aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2011, 01:59:22 am »


               Egads no... I never saw anything greater than +3 of any weapon type drop. I was focused on Greatsword and the best drops I ever saw were Vanilla +3, or +2 with extra abilities...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 27 avril 2011 - 02:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_cds13

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 02:46:57 pm »


               Go for it, fetyr. Let's give the kama monk a try. I played with the same kind of character and the number of blows dealt is impressive. Bare hands are superior as choice and you will find more likely powerful gloves than powerful kamas.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_cds13

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 02:52:02 pm »


               Oh, I forgot one thing, a personal choice: I would go for a dexer kama-monk. Is your character an elf? Than I would go for 12 in STR and 16 in DEX (you could do the same with other classes but the elven one  won't take the extra penalty points for raising DEX). Than add weapon finesse to the above suggestions.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shia Luck

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2011, 11:09:49 am »


               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

1
lvl only gets you one off hand attack. You'd need 9 to get the improved
dual wield. With 4 ftr lvls for wpn specialisation and an extra attack
you easily have enough feat slots to spend on the 3 feats soooo.
Have fun '<img'>


Yeah,
I got that part, but I was thinkin' from what the OP requested about a
mostly monk build and wanting to use kamas, that it might work okay for
the OC. Especially if it's just about the visual/RP effect. I suppose 4
fighter levels would be better, but in the OC you're not likely to go
above level 16, so BAB isn't going to gain you 4 base attacks per round
anyway.


No you won't get the 7 APR (not 4, is
monks we are talking, no? *grin* ), but 4 FTR levels will mean your AB
is +1 at any level you choose to compare on, and you will get each extra
attack one level earlier.

Rangers get Hide/Move Silently, and they also get Search which is helpful for avoiding traps. 

Very
true. But rogue gets these things and UMD which, for a kama
build with no other access to flame weapon, GMW, bless weapon, darkfire,
keen etc etc, is way more important. Without flame weapon at the least,
unarmed is better than kama until +7 enhancement. I suppose you could
go ranger/rogue/monk but without the 2nd off hand attack, it'll be a
much weaker choice than a ftr/rog/monk. (Xp penalty tho, which I never
care about, but it is a factor for some people.)

+2 from wpn
specialisation will beat the +1 average damage increase from 4 more monk
lvls (so it's better than pure monk) and get you two extra attacks.
Ranger 1 will get only one extra attack and no damage increase.



cds13 wrote...

Oh, I forgot one thing, a personal choice: I would go for a dexer kama-monk. Is your character an elf? Than I would go for 12 in STR and 16 in DEX (you could do the same with other classes but the elven one  won't take the extra penalty points for raising DEX). Than add weapon finesse to the above suggestions.


12 in CON I think you mean, maybe, no? Elves lose 2 CON. Halflings lose 2 STR. Dex monks need all the damage boosts they can get so less than max STR on character creation needs a really good reason imho.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2011, 03:17:56 pm »


               

Shia Luck wrote...
... but 4 FTR levels will mean your AB ...
... But rogue gets these things and UMD which ...
... much weaker choice than a ftr/rog/monk ...


So we are pretty much at a Dual Wielding Fighter-Rogue, with monk there really only to enable the Kama cheese.

That seems a far cry from the OPs request:

" I would prefer pure monk if possible."

As I said before, we really need guidance from the OP, on which is more important here, monk purity, where Fists make more sense (esp in the OC where gloves are better than kamas) or Kamas, where multiclassing makes a lot more sense. Or the third alternatives: Effectiveness be damned, pure monk with kamas.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 28 avril 2011 - 02:23 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2011, 03:20:26 pm »


                @Shia

Understood. My take on the OP was he was looking for RP/visual effect more than all out combat effectiveness. That's why I suggested 1 level of ranger to get the dual wield feat. It would be the easiest way to eliminate all the penalties otherwise associated with dual wielding without straying too far away from a "mostly" monk PC. And it also still gives access to Hide/MS as class skills, and gives him the ability to put some 1for1 points in Search.

If he is actually concerned about the most combat effective build, then obviously there are much better options available than Ranger. ;^)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shia Luck

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2011, 05:33:02 pm »


               

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...
... but 4 FTR levels will mean your AB ...
... But rogue gets these things and UMD which ...
... much weaker choice than a ftr/rog/monk ...


So we are pretty much at a Dual Wielding Fighter-Rogue, with monk there really only to enable the Kama cheese.

That seems a far cry from the OPs request:

" I would prefer pure monk if possible."


Not at all.  M12/F4/Rogue1 is mostly monk and incorporates everything I've said. Quite a few people beat me to suggestng what to do with a pure monk, so I thought to suggest what a little multiclassing could do. No harm in it is there? After all he did ask for dual kama wielding and your response was:

Lowlander wrote...

If pure monk, in the OC, I would stick with my hands, as they will do up to 1-20 damage, vs 1-6 with a kama.


*cheeky grin*

It's a shame it's a no spoiler section, because while in OC it doesn't really matter, there's a big reason for kamas in HotU (and most community modules). (OP: Pm me if you want to know what it is. That might make you choose fists for OC and kama for SoU and HotU).

Have fun '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2011, 06:04:16 pm »


               

Shia Luck wrote...
 After all he did ask for dual kama wielding and your response was:


I also repeatedly said the following which gets ignored:

Lowlander wrote...
...  we really need guidance from the OP, on which is more
important here, monk purity, where Fists make more sense (esp in the OC
where gloves are better than kamas) or Kamas, where multiclassing makes a
lot more sense. Or the third alternatives: Effectiveness be damned,
pure monk with kamas.


Of the three interpretations of the OP request most have been jumping on the Kama/Mulit-class bandwagon, more or less ignoring the Pure monk aspect.

Not at all.  M12/F4/Rogue1 is mostly monk and incorporates everything I've said.


So what are you compromising for the 15 Dex to dual wield? Str, con, int???  Also unless you are dropping that rogue level on the very last level you have and EXP penalty from the time you do drop it in. If you wait till the last level, then you really don't benefit much from it. This seems to create many compromises.


Also, below you seem be agreeing that without extensive Buffing the unarmed monk is better:

true. But rogue gets these things and UMD which, for a kama
build with no other access to flame weapon, GMW, bless weapon, darkfire,
keen etc etc, is way more important. Without flame weapon at the least,
unarmed is better than kama until +7 enhancement.


Why do you think any/all of those are available?? You added Rogue, not spell caster, so he is at the mercy of what he finds. This is the OC, not HotU. Pickings are more slim than your memory indicates (I played the OC over the last week).

I don't think it is any secret at this point that HotU is silly high level in magic and I would never recommend Unarmed Monk there.

But the OC is almost the only place I can think of where a pure monk using his fists has the advantage and he does have the advantage, not only from D20 damage but also Monk Gloves in the OC are much better than the crappy Kamas you will find.

If anyone ever had an inclination to play an pure unarmed Monk. This is the place to do it.

My message to the OP, is if he has an inclination to play a pure monk, go unarmed for the OC, it will be more effective and it is also one of the only places where this is the case, if you play any monk in HotU, the resounding choice will be Kama wielding. This is one of very few places where the balance (clearly IMO) tips in favor of the unarmed monk.

Almost everyone suggesting Kamas are a better choice seem to be remember the OC higher in magic than it actually is. I just played the OC this week,so my memory is quite fresh. Trust me, unarmed is the way to go for the pure monk in the OC.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 28 avril 2011 - 08:28 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Elhanan

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2011, 08:18:34 pm »


               I had considered a STR based Monk/ DwD design, though it has not been fully tested. The DwD abilities appear to help against losing AC in certain circumstances which is rumored to be a weak point in some of the usual Monk builds.

It might not be worth it for the OC, but in more Epic mods like HotU you may see gains using Kama vs Unarmed.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2011, 09:31:06 pm »


               I agree with others here, both that unarmed is the way to go for pure monk in the OC and that multiclass has advantages for a dual wielder. But, the OP wants a dual wielder and pure monk (if possible, which it is in the OC and the higher SR from a pure build will come in handy at the end as well), so here's an attempt.

Ability Scores (final):
STR: 14
DEX: 16 (20)
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 10
CHA: 8

Levels and Feats:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Monk(1): Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting
02: Monk(2):
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Weapon Focus: Kama
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Monk(9): Toughness
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Kama, (DEX=19)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Monk(17)
18: Monk(18): Blind Fight

Skills:
01: Discipline(4), Heal(2), Hide(2), Listen(4), Lore(2), Move Silently(2), Tumble(4),
02: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
03: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
04: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
06: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
08: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
10: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
12: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
13: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
14: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
16: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
18: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),

Summary (at level 18):
Hitpoints: 198 (max)
Skillpoints: 105
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 13/13/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 13
AB (max, naked): 19 (melee), 18 (ranged)
AC (naked): 24

Discipline 21(23), Heal 11(13), Hide 11(16), Listen 21(23), Lore 10(10), Move Silently 10(15), Tumble 21(26)

Notes:
Human for the extra feat and skill points, which will both be a little scarce in this build. Personally, I tend to like elf scouts for the automatic search mode and the extra DEX would be nice here, too, but the lower CON and HP will make for tougher going early on, especially since the missing feat would probably mean no toughness. (One could also build an elf sticking to 16 total DEX and use the extra points to bump INT and have some extra skill points to play with.)

I went with a DEX build, but shooting for some balance on the other initial stats. You will need DEX of 15 to get ambidexterity anyway, and there's no reason to stop on an odd number, so that's 16, at least. So this build is walking down the DEX road anyway. Of course, since this is a melee weapon build, a case can be made for STR for the extra damage, but that's spreading things pretty thin and leaving the character lacking in AC. (I agree with others that uncanny dodge would really round out this build. Oh, well.) And, DEX is increasing ranged AB, which is helping to keep you alive in the early going. Also, DEX will keep the reflex save high, which leverages evasion well.

Once the DEX choice is made, weapon finesse is needed. I like blind fight, though one might argue for a different feat at the end of the game. All the other feats are weapon feats that I assume the OP would want to get the most out of the dual-wielding kama aspect of the build. Note that no dual wielding is recommended early on, as the AB is really pretty low, at least until weapon finesse is acquired, and maybe not for a few levels after that for tougher opponents.

Skill points: Keep discipline and tumble maxed and I like a monk with a high listen skill to detect monsters around corners and stealthy baddies. The rest of the skill points should be chosen to taste, I tend to play monks as scout characters, thus the points in hide and move silently, which also work well with the DEX build. I think some points in heal are useful because healing kits are usable during melee without attacks of opportunity and there's the take 20 when used after combat. I also like to be able to identify my own stuff, but some people prefer swapping rings and using potions for that.

BTW, some skills end on numbers that don't help a level 18 build (e.g. tumble 21), but I chose them assuming the character would go on.

Also, I am assuming use of Tony K's AI, otherwise the henchies are just too annoying. That's also part of the reason for blind fight, even though it comes so late in the build. One obvious change would be to ignore skill points in lore and use henchmen for that (all but Tomi have good lore using TKAI and Sharwyn can identify pretty much anything).

Anyway, with a pair of decent kamas and the other DEX-, STR-, and WIS-boosting items in the OC, this character should be pretty impressive.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MrZork, 28 avril 2011 - 08:40 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

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Monk Kama build
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2011, 12:09:32 am »


               

. But, the OP wants a dual wielder and pure monk (if possible, which it is in the OC and the higher SR from a pure build will come in handy at the end as well), so here's an attempt.


Kudos for building exactly what he asked for. I will change feats to unarmed and see how he compares(for OP benefit, I realize MrZork gets it):

01: Monk(1): Luck of Heroes, Blind Fight, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Weapon Focus: Unarmed, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Monk(9): Toughness, {Improved Evasion}
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Unarmed, (DEX=19)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Dodge
16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Monk(17)

Differences. Much less feat starved and as a result unarmed is:

+ 1 to all saving throws from Luck of Heroes
Blind Fight right from the start vs most likely not at all (Level 18 unlikely to even happen).
+1 better AC due to dodge

And much better damage, which will be extremely important in a dex build.

First the single wield case where AB is equal:
Unarmed: D20 + 2 str = 12.5 average per hit.
Kama     D6  + 2 str = 5.5  average per hit.

Even if you were hitting twice as much you would still be doing less damage.

But in the Dual wield case you actually get -2 to hit on all your attacks, this is on top of the -2 for flurry of blows, which you are presumably doing, and considering the Monk BAB is weaker here as well, you are going to miss a lot, which is quite negating of all the extra attacks.

Also there are only two extra attacks, and they average even less damage than the main kama ones because you only get half strength damage (so 4.5 per hit).

So in summary. This Unarmed version has:
Blind Fight
Better saves.
Better AB.
Better damage.
Better AC.

The Kama version has dubious bragging right of two more somewhat ineffectual attacks per round.  It really is no contest.

Next up, how much can Multi-classing improve the pure builds. Someone want to take a shot? I would say Unarmed is near pointless and first 16 should be Monk, 17 could add something but that is quite late. He would still be quite pure.  But the Kama Monk could benefit from a lot of things...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Lowlander, 28 avril 2011 - 11:10 .