Author Topic: I don't get it  (Read 797 times)

Legacy_Chaseroy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« on: April 13, 2011, 11:51:36 pm »


               I really want to love this game.  I'm a huge fan of cRPGs and 'classic' ones in particular.  However, I've tried to get into NWN three times since 2004 and I just find it boring and frustrating.  I wonder if I'm missing something?

To be clear, I'm not trying to bash one of your favorite games if this happens to be one. I'm just perplexed as to how this game seems to be as popular as it is, as highly reviewed as it was, as well as being the exact kind of game I like and yet I just can't get into it.

My issue with NWN is that it seems to try to exist in this nebulous space between being a party-oriented tactical RPG a la Baldur's Gate and point and click 'action' RPG a la Diablo, the latter of which I'm not really into. In the end this seems to amount to clicking on something then sitting back as a series of rolls are made, the outcomes of which determine whether you win the battle or die.

This is of course how games like Baldur's Gate work, fundamentally, but in BG you can control your entire party of six which provides many, many variables over which to influence the outcome of the combat.  The inability to control party members in NWN even makes things as simple as having an ally drink a potion tedious.  Whilst fighting Cailik in the aqueducts my PCs job in the battle was to stand by my barbarian henchman and dole out potions one at a time. (!?!?)

Having so little control over the party basically makes each encounter a game a chance.  Given the way the D&D round works, there isn't a whole lot for one character to do.  I basically get to manipulate one thing in a battle then wait to see what the computer does with the other 6-7 entities involved. It's like watching my computer play a game, basically.

So far I've played a fighter/thief up to around 6 or 7 character levels.  By the time I got a rogue level or two I realized the tedium wasn't going to change.  I decided to try my hand at a Druid.  This path gave me a couple more options, I guess, but quickly seemed to amount to about the same thing. 

Having a 'tank' pet that I can't send out ahead of me - not to mention the henchman - has provided for some pretty ridiculous situations.  Assuming they don't get lost along the way, they always hang back a few paces.  This means that my armor poor low HP druid has to run out, grab enemies and run back to my fearless squad of summoned beasts and a half orc.  Then I have to run in circles until the computer decides it's time to attack something.  If I'm lucky they will attack the ones who are after me but, you know, there are no guarantees.

If you've taken the time to read all of this I would really appreciate knowing what you think it is that makes NWN worth playing.  Like I said I really, really, really, want to love this game.  There's so much content for it and it's so highly regarded that I would love to sink my teeth into it but the basic mechanics just seem dull and lacking.  Am I missing something?  Do I just need to push on?  Does it eventually open up into something that I'm not yet seeing?

Thanks.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 01:02:17 am »


               Yes you are missing that there is a multiplayer. Thing that wasnt here (ok was but bad and you could play only the main story again) in BG II so while singleplayer is the same just with different story, there is a thousands custom single player modules and hunderts multiplayer modules called Persistent Worlds, there are even PvP arenas. Now forget about singleplayer and some AI errors and come play multiplayer!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 01:30:34 am »


               The first time I played NWN, after loving BG so much, could have been the last time, as I found the regular AI so dumb, I would have quit and never come back... then I heard of community made AIs, such as Tony K's one... (Read those "Tips" in my signature, just in case...)
I've been playing NWN with it ever since.
I strongly believe a game has to go easy on you, and walk your way. You have to be able to do whatever you want with it without too much of a thinking. Instinctively. Like if there is no game.
Otherwise it's called working, not gaming.
That AI suited me fine and we've been getting along together pretty well.
But, to be honnest with you, I knew NWN was my game. Love at first sight. The first time in my life probably some commercial made me actually buy something...
Just a couple of screenshots, the music... BG introduced me to computer games, D&D and the Forgotten Realms I suppose, so it couldn't be mine. Then only I was able to find my game.
Maybe this one isn't yours...
Just try that AI before making maybe the mistake of your life...
And, before I let you rest, in my humble single player only opinion, the only true way to fully enjoy NWN is... through multiplayer.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 14 avril 2011 - 12:37 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Chaseroy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 03:49:19 am »


               Awesome, thanks for the replies. I am going to get into multiplayer.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Lightfoot8

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4797
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 04:00:49 am »


               Just make sure you request your GOG multiplayer CD-Key, If you have not already.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2849
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 05:06:11 am »


               

Chaseroy wrote...
If you've taken the time to read all of this I would really appreciate knowing what you think it is that makes NWN worth playing.

Your main mistake interpreting NWN singleplayer is that NWN is not now and was never intended to be Baldur's Gate, a game which focused solely on SP games.  I may have the minority opinion hereabouts, but I play all SP modules solo. Always solo.  I use the henchfolk to add a little sorbet to the cake, but that is about all, give or take a romance subplot if one exists. I find I am constantly dodging well-intentioned friendly fire from the AoE spells (come to think of it, that happens in MP,too... so scratch that remark). Combat with the henchmen/pets/summons is exactly as you have described for a novice player who hasn't yet experimented with all the standard control options.  Even installing alternate AIs will only help the AI of the henchfolk a little better, but still not BG-esque,  However, after refining the technique, there is still a limited amount of control to be reached using the radial options, adjusting equipment, setting up kill zones, kiting, etc.

I'll leave others to purport the obvious value of the multiplayer interface.  All THAT takes is a few hours spent on any on-line server or a LAN game with your friends, if you prefer.

But SP modules do have their own value.  The OC was intended as the "starter kit" for new players and builders but content has drastically changed since then with the relentless community effort in the designing of innovative dynamics. There has been a drastic departure from the "enter dungeon, kill beast, find artifact, return to get XP and gold, over and over, then level-up" cycle that the original campaign based its dynamic upon.

And yet, there still are plenty of pure H&S community modules out there, if you enjoy that genre, as do many.

So, my advice is to just use the OC to get familiar with learning the different classes and how they interact as multiclass toons and with how the interface works. Then when you find you have no more interest in following the story or enjoying the roleplay value, move onto the vast community content and/or on-line play.  One unique characteristic about SP in NWN... the lag monster is NEVER awake!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2011, 09:04:02 am »


               There is nothing in the NWN world I like more than arguing with Hip, only early in the morning while that mountain bear is still asleep. 
And as soon as one of us start mentionning the AI name, our favorite battle begins. Our only variance in a beautiful love affair. 
And... I like teasing even more. 
Now being who I am, I'm going to use your own words against you, first because they're often beautiful, just like your signature:


HipMaestro wrote...
Combat with the henchmen/pets/summons is exactly as you have described for a novice player who hasn't yet experimented with all the standard control options.  Even installing alternate AIs will only help the AI of the henchfolk a little better, but still not BG-esque,  However, after refining the technique, there is still a limited amount of control to be reached using the radial options, adjusting equipment, setting up kill zones, kiting, etc. 

You’re absolutely right, I’m afraid. And this is exactly what the community AI does for me. Without TK’s AI, the game was a pain. Uneasy. Unnatural. With it, it only became normal, just a game. And I don’t think technical anymore, I just play. Before, I had to spend most of my little free gaming time monitoring NWN. Now, I finally simply play, enjoying every single second of any of those wonderful 1000s of community modules, without being bothered by the first enemy facing me with the brain of a statue. Desimmersing me right away. And that is not an option at all.
Of course I had to adjust a little also with using that TK’s piece of ease. ‘cause that’s what it « ease Â» for me: easiness. Just closer to real life. 
And you know I'm also a SP player deep in my heart. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 14 avril 2011 - 08:07 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_olivier leroux

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 01:53:42 pm »


               Speaking for myself, let me assure you that the reasons why NWN is one of my favorite games are neither the combat mechanics nor the original single player campaign. In those regards I agree that the CRPGs based on the Infinity Engine (and maybe even NWN2, although a lot of people here bear a grudge against it) are much better. What is so good about NWN is that it offers so much variety.

I mostly play for story and some of the community-made modules have fantastic stories, well-written and really gripping (never mind the official campaign). And the NWN editor is flexible as no other commercial CRPG editor I've seen, allowing module authors to cater to all kinds of playstyles, establish their own rules and even turn NWN into a totally different game. The community is very creative and doesn't have to follow the same guidelines as a commercial company, therefor you don't just get your average mainstream RPG experience but also children's modules or very adult ones, weird experimental stuff, hack and slash clickfeasts or heavy roleplaying with romances and NPC banter, survival horror, sci-fi, steampunk, puzzles and mini-games, capture the flag, etc. etc. The sky is the limit.

Then, as has been said already, apart from realizing your own stories and ideas or enjoying those of other creative people around the world in Single Player mode, you can also go Multiplayer and play on lots of different worlds designed by the community, each with its own setting, rules and playerbase. Or you can arrange regular meetings with a kind of online Pen & Paper group where a Dungeon Master leads you and other players through adventures with improvised role-playing and your actions have an immediate effect on the world and the story. Or you can be that Dungeon Master yourself.

And last but not least, the available content for NWN is constantly improved not only by module authors but also by skilled modelers and custom content creators who provide the community with new monster models, new tilesets (environments), new placeables and item appearances etc.

If you compare NWN with BG2 on the basis of its official single player campaign and its mechanics, you will probably never be able to understand why NWN is so popular. Just try something different for a change, NWN offers lots of choices.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 14 avril 2011 - 01:50 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_TSMDude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 03:57:44 pm »


               

Chaseroy wrote...

Awesome, thanks for the replies. I am going to get into multiplayer.


The first time I played NWN I felt cheated. i never even made it through the OC. It was not role playing in my eyes as I have always felt that you cannot be role playing with just one person following a linear story. Sorry that has always been my perception.

Then a few months later I tried the Multiplayer. And got banned a month into it because I was still seeing it as nothing more than a actiony first person type shooter with arrows and swords.

Fats forward a few years and I have met some awesome friends and even met some in real life. Thankfully not like the Guilde folks 'Image, but still it has enriched my hobby of PnP past its allotted shelf life.

NWN has given me back those days in college we spent styaing up all night trying to bring down the renegade Fallstaff in the Realms or when we freed Daggerdale from some Zhents. It has been a long journey and once you get into it...it grabs you like a good book whose story changes constantly.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 06:02:35 pm »


               

My issue with NWN is that it seems to try to exist in this nebulous space between being a party-oriented tactical RPG a la Baldur's Gate and point and click 'action' RPG a la Diablo, the latter of which I'm not really into. In the end this seems to amount to clicking on something then sitting back as a series of rolls are made, the outcomes of which determine whether you win the battle or die.

This is of course how games like Baldur's Gate work, fundamentally, but in BG you can control your entire party of six which provides many, many variables over which to influence the outcome of the combat.  The inability to control party members in NWN even makes things as simple as having an ally drink a potion tedious.  Whilst fighting Cailik in the aqueducts my PCs job in the battle was to stand by my barbarian henchman and dole out potions one at a time. (!?!?)

Having so little control over the party basically makes each encounter a game a chance. 


Not every game works for everyone. As a player of AD&D in the 1980's I find NWN better replicates that experience than any CRPG I have ever played. 

NWN is primarily a story telling engine with single/multiplayer opportunities, with you essentially controlling your hero, either solo, with weak AI sidekick or real human companions. But it is all about controlling ONE character.

Obviously if you want a party based CRPG, NWN is not for you, it is essentially intended to be one hero with OPTIONAL sidekick. I actually prefer this as I really don't care for micromanaging a whole party of characters. Back when I played PnP, I really hated it when someone didn't show up and I got stuck, playing their character as well. Controling any other character besides my own, detracts from attachment/identification with that character.

Unfortunately sidekick AI is weak, and there are some things you can do to mitigate:

1) Tony K AI patch helps.
2) Play they Hero, not the sidekick. If you are playing a weak class and counting on a stronger AI sidekick, that isn't optimal in the NWN engine and less fun anyway.
3) Play modules with a better sidekick.
4) Play solo without a sidekick.
5) Play real multi-player with real human counterparts.

Some examples where this worked well.
1) In Hordes of the Underdark with Deakin as sidekick. He is very funny, does decent support with bard songs and tends to avoid getting himself killed. 
2) As I fighter/Rogue in Prophet (third party module) I really enjoyed that the companions were stealth capable, so you could stealth into or around battles and they were also range friendly so we had some great archery battles with goblins in the mountains and they were integral to the story...
3) I was playing a fighter/rogue on persistent world and while clearing a dungeon with 2 real live humans as companions, we worked great as a team, I would stealth ahead into every room and backstab any spellcaster, to shift the fights dramatically in our favor. This is where the game really is awesome.

It kind of looks like you were trying to play Robin to your "sidekicks" Batman. That definitely isn't the way to go. You are always Batman and if you are dragging around Robin, you always have to look out for him. Best to give him ranged weapons to stay out of trouble as much as possible.

But it also sounds like you don't enjoy being batman, because you don't think there is enough to do? Again NWN doesn't appear to be the game for you. I really don't want to be button mashing, but I still find myself engaged in cotrolling the battlefield unless it is down to just one enemy left. Deciding who to attack next, how to get them off my sidekick. Even when down to 1vs1 you have combat moves you can use like Knockdown, called shot.

Bottom line NWN may not be for you. If you are looking for a tactical multicharacter battle sim, this is not it. If you are looking for beat em fighting game with endless special moves, this is not it. 
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ChaosInTwilight

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 04:16:24 am »


               

Chaseroy wrote...

  Like I said I really, really, really, want to love this game.  There's so much content for it and it's so highly regarded that I would love to sink my teeth into it but the basic mechanics just seem dull and lacking.  Am I missing something?  Do I just need to push on?  Does it eventually open up into something that I'm not yet seeing?


Regarding the single player experience..  To heck with Tony K's AI(Mind you, it is the best I've found for summons and the like but), go for the gold standard:

OHS Henchman System : Release 1 Version 1.6.1 for Patch 1.69

Lead a party of your own characters!This
system allows your player character to adventure with extra companions
made from your other player characters. So your favourite characters can
work together as a party.There is provision for keeping your
companions in a database so you can develop the party as you move on
from module to module and story to story.There is a special
temple ritual for converting companions back into player characters so
you can rotate the leadership of your company.Everything works
in-game using override files. No HakPaks. No debug commands. No external
file editors. No fixes to modules. Just Install and Play.It works with NWN, SoU, HotU, Bioware Premium Modules and many, though not quite all, community-written modules.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2849
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 05:32:06 am »


               

ChaosInTwilight wrote...
Regarding the single player experience..  To heck with Tony K's AI(Mind you, it is the best I've found for summons and the like but), go for the gold standard:

OHS Henchman System : Release 1 Version 1.6.1 for Patch 1.69

The AI is no better controlled for converted PCs than the scripted NPCs.

For building massive parties, Oldmansbeard's utility works nicely.  A fews issues, though, with the Bio campaigns: 1) no roleplay (no interactive convos) or subquests with associated rewards (per OC & SoU) and 2) oversized and artificially-empowered parties drastically change the game balancing thereby eliminating much of the combat challenge.   I suppose you could write your own scripting for the converted PCs to make them interactive, if you are so disposed and have the time.

BG provides exactly the same option (converted PCs) with similar results.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 03:05:39 pm »


               I can only echo CIT recommendation of OldMansBeard's OHS.  I never play SP mods without it.

It is the closest that one can get to a "real" party feel in NWN SP currently, IMHO.

Of course, nothing beats a closed MP DMed NWN campaign with a party.  Nothing.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2011, 04:13:52 pm »


               

WebShaman wrote...

Of course, nothing beats a closed MP DMed NWN campaign with a party.  Nothing.


I've not had the pleasure of that experience yet. Sounds like great fun, though. Any particular campaign you prefer?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't get it
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2011, 06:45:09 pm »


               

TSMDude wrote...

The first time I played NWN I felt cheated. i never even made it through the OC. It was not role playing in my eyes as I have always felt that you cannot be role playing with just one person following a linear story. Sorry that has always been my perception.

Probably the wisest words ever typed about role playing!  LOL (I have said it myself so many times I can no longer count!).  

nwn isnt about controlling party players!  You go online and let other people worry about their dude (hope that they have skills...).  To me, nwn has always been about figuring out how to give out devastation in the name of what ever "god" i was playing for.  If you play nwn "defensively" it is boring.  If you learn to play ALL OUT, not so much.  There is nothing like laying waste to a HORDE of golems (crit immune = long fights) of about 25 and watching them crumble at your feet!   nwn takes some tiem to get involved with as it is very complex once you get into it.  On a pw, ask around and learn about builds.  It will help immeasureably.