NWN is better then Dragon Age

[Legacy_micheal001]

               I think by far NWN is much better then Dragon Age series. In nwn you felt as if you were apart of something larger then your own character and what your character did meant something to the outcome of the story. If NWN was re-made for todays standards in gaming NWN would use Dragon Age as toilet paper. DA2 is by far a game with really no substance having gone from DAO grey warden and a better character creation and story to cut of character and weak story line. Why is it that in both Dragon Ages you start from the gutter to work your way up to Hero where in NWN you are the hero that saves.

And why does Bioware always need a hero why not a Villian hero that goes out of his/her way to destroy the city of neverwinter of Kirkwall rather then become champion. Who here believes that NWN is a better game and would out do DA series if made anew.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               Absolutely! That's why I never even played Dragon Age once!
Wait! Didn't I just say something a little incoherent?
Long live NWN!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               I believe NWN is a better game, as it has m/p optionality. I believe DAO has a better solo campaign, and have replayed it many times. Apples; oranges.....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

micheal001 wrote...
In nwn you felt as if you were apart of something larger then your own character and what your character did meant something to the outcome of the story.

I haven't played DA but it's curious that you mention this because my personal feelings about NWN's OC were exactly the opposite. I definitely felt like there was something larger than my own character going on but actually to a point where I didn't believe anymore that my character was somehow important to the story. The story evolved around NPCs I had no real personal connection with and it moved on without me having a say in its course, without giving me the option to prevent things I saw coming from miles away. I felt more like a mercenary than a hero, and not even in a good way (like being able to play a scheming bastard or something).

So without knowing what kind of story DA tells and in what way, I much prefer stories that are directly connected to my PC, epic or not, or if they aren't, at least I'd like to be able to make my own choices with regard to them ...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 11 mars 2011 - 12:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               That's an interesting observation about the difference in style between the NWN and DA OCs, which I think there's some truth to. As much as I love NWN, though, I do very much disagree with your conclusion that NWN is a better game. For a variety of reasons I much prefer DA (and what I've seen of DAII so far). And I've always thought that the best feature of NWN is not the OCs themselves, but the custom adventure modules and the toolset that makes them possible.

However, I did notice that DA's OC was styled around a darker and less idealistic worldview than was typical for the NWN and NWN2 franchise, and I think that was probably intentional. A lot of this is carryover from and implicit in the D&D worlds and rules, such as the notion of an alignment system, which DA basically scrapped. I suspect there was a perception that this would make the game more mature and attractive to many players, but I personally found it a weakness in an otherwise brilliant and compelling game. (NOTE: I mean the less idealistic worldview, not the omission of an alignment system.)

I started playing DA II last night, and I really like the way that it integrated the use of "role-playing tags" into the heart of the conversation system. As someone who helped pioneer the use of RP tagging in my own NWN modules, I think that if properly used they can represent an important innovation in role playing games. I also think it's one that can be used effectively to open up a structured RP landscape while also breaking away from the "good / evil / lawful / chaotic" RP stereotypes that are a common legacy from previous games.

EDIT: just to add a comment about the criticism of DA II: no, I don't think that having the option to play a villain hero would represent any sort of improvement. I've always been heavily critical of RPGs that try to combine fundamentally incompatible and unintegrable plotlines into the same game. That's particularly the case when it comes to heavily story-focused RPGs, which DA II is pretty obviously trying to set a new standard for.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 11 mars 2011 - 07:36 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Beerfish]

               NWN official campaign was not that great in BioWare standards. The toolset was a marvel, nothing else can be said.  One can only appreciate the NWN toolset more as time goes one.  The level of support for the game was unreal and multiplaer was tremendous.

DA does kick NWN's tail in a few departments but NWN was, and is a great great achievement in gaming.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               DA/DA2 are more like Fantasy Action games to me. 

The whole "RPG" system just feels lame and pointless to me.  There is actually near zero character building anymore. I much prefer the old school D&D character building mechanics to the dumbed down trees that pretty much everyone selects the exact same way.  I also much prefer Vancian magic to near instantly replaced mana pools. This is definitely aimed at the console/action crowd, so they can just blast stuff continuosly.

There may be some decent story telling in there but Bioware is evolving more into a CGI Movie company with some action game on top. "Oh would you actually like a game to go with your cut scenes"??

No real interest for me. NWN is the last great CRPG, that delivered an OPEN platform for single/multi-player and  persistant worlds.  The tools in NWN are there to tell any story and you have endless character building/customization options, that really makes every character feel unique.

We will never see anything like this again as any attempt at multiplayer will be locked down, controlled, monetized.

Also there is the real nonsense with EA/DRM on DA. There is a guy who made non flattering comments about EA, so the banned him from his account, and because of the DRM on DA:2, he can't play the single player game he purchased. I would never buy a game with that kind of ridiculous DRM.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 11 mars 2011 - 03:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_micheal001]

               Yes its a shame that we will never see another NWN again but there is the Witcher 2 coming out very soon. Bioware has to perform for the share holders and I'm sure there busy with this and that. NWN and Baldur's Gate really put Bioware on the map, just because Bioware had good story tellers and I'm sure they had the time to invest in both games.

Only if Bioware would revisit NWN and bring it up to par.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AmstradHero]

               

Lowlander wrote...
The whole "RPG" system just feels lame and pointless to me.  There is actually near zero character building anymore. I much prefer the old school D&D character building mechanics to the dumbed down trees that pretty much everyone selects the exact same way.  I also much prefer Vancian magic to near instantly replaced mana pools. This is definitely aimed at the console/action crowd, so they can just blast stuff continuosly.

This is where you could not be more unequivocally wrong, because you're failing to understand the transition of the old pen and paper RPG system to a computer game without a real-life DM. 

In a pen and paper game, the DM can modify the challenge of the encounters on the fly should the party have done poorly due to bad luck in a previous encounter. A computer has no scope for this. When the designers are creating encounters, with a system as is present in old D&D games, they have no idea of the potential power of a party for a given combat encounter. Thus unless they provide the ability for the player to rest at frequent intervals, it's possible that a pivotal and exciting encounter will potentially be too hard for a party if they've performed badly on the "trash mobs" prior to that encounter.

Replenishing health and mana between combat is a conscious design choice to try and allow the designers to create more meaningful and complex battles. They're not always achieving this goal, but that's the reason for it. Compare these two scenarios:
* Player fights 20 groups of 5 orcs before reaching the orc chieftain and fighting him.
* Player is ambushed by orc scouts at the entrance, player is swarmed by worgs as they enter the stables, player fights orc chieftain with his shaman and must avoid the rockfall traps set up in the room.

Non-vancian systems give designers the flexibility to design more unique encounters with a reasonable level of difficulty for all players rather than just appealing to the min-max players who know exactly how to conserve their resources. Besides, what's the fun in having your mage "always keep Dragon's Breath in reserve... just in case"?

For the record, I thought NWN was great because of the toolset. But I consider the NWN OC to be the low point of BioWare's entire game backlog. I could explain at length why the NWN OC was a tedious exercise that barely demanded any emotional involvement from the player... in fact, I already did so.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 mars 2011 - 09:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

AmstradHero wrote...
This is where you could not be more unequivocally wrong, because you're failing to understand the transition of the old pen and paper RPG system to a computer game without a real-life DM. 

In a pen and paper game, the DM can modify the challenge of the encounters on the fly should the party have done poorly due to bad luck in a previous encounter. A computer has no scope for this. When the designers are creating encounters, with a system as is present in old D&D games, they have no idea of the potential power of a party for a given combat encounter.

These are obviously matters of opinion. But you are only addressing one of my points (mana magic). All I see you saying is that the new system is designed to be easier for videogames.  Which is my point exactly.  The feel is very much console video game. 

You don't touch my other issues:

Pointless to non- existent character building/options. This one is HUGE. Even more than lame mana magic. Half the fun in NWN was building characters. Now in DA/DA2 they are essentially all the same. There is none of the richness of NWN character building. It is so pointless now, they should just get rid of it altogether. It reminds me of Dungeon Siege and it's equally dumbed down characters. When I carefully craft a character I feel connected.  I save old characters even when I delete savegames/modules. Because they are unique/rich/interesting.

Dungeon Siege/Diablo/Dragon Age characters are all the same, there is no uniqueness.

No multiplayer/persistant worlds.

Hideous Abusive DRM.

I really didn't like DA and after the Demo, I like DA:2 even less. The camera seems to have gotten even worse, the system is even more dumbed down and console oriented. It makes Diablo look like a complex RPG now.

NWN is a product of pre EA heyday of bioware. Now they are making dumbed down console fantasy action games. Fine if you like that kind of thing, but there is nothing there for me. 

NWN forever.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               I only have time for a quick comment for now; I'll try to respond at more length later.

@Amstradhero: I very much agree with your analysis comparing build and encounter design in NWN vs. DA. Far from a drawback, I think that the streamlining, simplification, and flexibility of the build system in DA as one of its strengths. As someone whose main interest in CRPGs is telling a story, providing the potential for complex exercises in build dynamics is more a distraction than an attraction. (By the way, I didn't know that you had a blog. From my quick look it appears to be very thougtful and well written.)

@Lowlander: I understand where you're coming from, but I also think it's helpful to remember that "role-playing" is a term that's understood in at least two (and probably more) different senses in the CRPG community. There is role-playing that emphasizes things like exercising character and build options, but there is also role-playing that emphasizes immersion in a role in a well-developed story. It sounds like you prefer the first, while I tend to emphasize the second.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

@Lowlander: I understand where you're coming from, but I also think it's helpful to remember that "role-playing" is a term that's understood in at least two (and probably more) different senses in the CRPG community. There is role-playing that emphasizes things like exercising character and build options, but there is also role-playing that emphasizes immersion in a role in a well-developed story. It sounds like you prefer the first, while I tend to emphasize the second.

When you get down to you can call anything an RPG. 

But when it gets this watered down this much it is more a point and shoot action fantasy game with lots of cut scenes. Maybe they should eliminate the combat and just make CGI movies? Then the story doesn't need to be interrupted with button mashing.

I have played 50+ NWN modules where independent authors never had that much trouble designing interesting and balanced encounters. So the "need" to dumb it down is quite questionable IMO.

It was dumbed down to make it more at home on consoles.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AmstradHero]

               I hate the term "dumbed down", because it's mostly used as a crutch when there's no concrete argument. You removed a skill! Now it's dumbed down! You removed a party member, it's dumbed down! It's a meaningless pejorative that does nothing for an argument.

If you want to talk about build complexity, what's the point of choice in character builds when so much of it is meaningless? What's the point in having the ability to put points into a skill that is used half a dozen times throughout the entire game? Even something as classic as picking lightning over fireball in a D&D game... Speaking personally I've never picked lightning if I could pick fireball since the old gold box days. There's nothing that lightning does that fireball doesn't do better. What's the point in making a skill that offers no advantage over another skill?

DAO still has choice in terms of character development, though admittedly it wasn't as diverse as it could/should have been. But if you'd bothered to investigate, you'd see that DA2 actually has more. There's certainly not "one character build", and I imagine my dual-wielding Hawke rogue is a lot different to many other people's.

And if we're really doing a NWN OC vs DAO OC comparison, NWN is sorely on the losing end. I could take me and one henchman who had virtually no character. I don't care how much flexibility there is in a single character build, there's less complexity in NWN's combat compared to DAO's. The PC and a choice of a henchmen you don't get any degree of control over is far reduced over having a full party of 4 you get to control and develop how you wish. Not until you hit Hordes of the Underdark is there actually a reasonable competition in this aspect.

Drawing the arguments of no MP/PW or "hideous DRM" are totally irrelevant when discussing the actual game content. This isn't a "EA are evil" or "I want to play with friends" thread and bringing those types of arguments into play makes you look like one of the people that just get on their soapbox and talk about "the decline of gaming" or proclaim that "everyone is a console kiddie". Please, don't.

You can spend hours planning and creating character builds in NWN and NWN2. For people who like that, that's great. Could DAO have done with a little more flexibility in its builds? Sure. But DA2 does improve on that, and while I'd like a few more cross-class combos options (something that NWN lacks completely), there's still plenty of variety to create the type of character you want.

For me, the point of an RPG isn't creating the ultimate killing machine. It's about the story, the adventure, the characters, and how your hero affects the world through their actions and decisions. In that regard, DAO and DA2 deliver far more than NWN ever even dreamed of. Based on your post, I'm probably just wasting my time here, but I hope that you can see that DAO and DA2 aren't dumbed down - they're simply not to your taste.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 mars 2011 - 11:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_Lowlander_*]

               

AmstradHero wrote...
I hate the term "dumbed down", because it's mostly used as a crutch when there's no concrete argument. You removed a skill! Now it's dumbed down! You removed a party member, it's dumbed down! It's a meaningless pejorative that does nothing for an argument.

Before continuing, I will point out that you have come into a NWN forum to sell us on  DA, I am not going to the DA forum to try and sell anyone on NWN.  It shouldn't be surprising that people in a NWN forum actually prefer NWN.

Dumbed down is completely accurate description of DA RPG system and I explained why.  Everything it extremely simplified,  from character creation, to magic.  It is aimed at playing fast from the console.  When I played the demo the closest thing it reminde me of was a multi-character God of War.  It was more like an Action Fantasy game.

If you want to talk about build complexity, what's the point of choice in character builds when so much of it is meaningless? What's the point in having the ability to put points into a skill that is used half a dozen times throughout the entire game?

This is a completely innacurate description of the situation. There are so many useful skills in NWN that you face an embarassment of riches situation trying to decide between so many great skills that do matter.  There many great skills that have a large effect on play that I always want. UMD/Hide/MS/Disable Trap/Set Traps/Open Locks/Search/Spot/Tumble etc...

Even something as classic as picking lightning over fireball in a D&D game... There's nothing that lightning does that fireball doesn't do better. What's the point in making a skill that offers no advantage over another skill?

Sure there is. Many creatures have high fire resistance/immunity.  It doesn't make sense to try and roast fire dwelling creatures.  Also you get Chain lightning  does more damage than fireball... There are advantages to lightning if you are aware fo them.

There's certainly not "one character build", and I imagine my dual-wielding Hawke rogue is a lot different to many other people's.

Really how? What are your weapons choices. Bow/Dual? That seems pretty limited. Every rogue will either be Dual wielder or using a bow.  More than likely completely filling one tree and mostly ignoring the other. In NWN ANY class can learn to use ANY weapon.  So you often see longsword wielding mages (like Gandalf) or Strong Two Handed Greatsword wielding Rogues.  Any archtype you can imagine you can build in NWN, while in DA you have a few cookie cutter choices. 

And if we're really doing a NWN OC vs DAO OC comparison, NWN is sorely on the losing end. I could take me and one henchman who had virtually no character. I don't care how much flexibility there is in a single character build, there's less complexity in NWN's combat compared to DAO's. The PC and a choice of a henchmen you don't get any degree of control over is far reduced over having a full party of 4 you get to control and develop how you wish. Not until you hit Hordes of the Underdark is there actually a reasonable competition in this aspect.

No one is going to argue that the OC of NWN was great, but NWN is not limited to the OC and as far as henchmen go, my favorite of all time is Deekin (Minsc  would be second). None in DA were as memorable or as fun as Deekin IMO. But I have played NWN mods with up to 6 party members. I have also heard that they have further limited what you can do with your party members in DA:2.

Drawing the arguments of no MP/PW or "hideous DRM" are totally irrelevant when discussing the actual game content. This isn't a "EA are evil" or "I want to play with friends" thread and bringing those types of arguments into play makes you look like one of the people that just get on their soapbox

Perhaps the EAs egregious DRM (secure rom + call home auth) belongs elsewhere, but Multiplayer and Persistent world capabilty are two things that make NWN great and has helped give it incredible longevity. Being able to play through Aielund with your spouse or a buddy massively enhances the experience.  PWs completely change and enhance the game in entirely different ways. These are massive advantages. You can't just arbitrarily exclude them.

But DA2 does improve on that, and while I'd like a few more cross-class
combos options (something that NWN lacks completely), there's still
plenty of variety to create the type of character you want.

What are you talking about? In NWN nearly every class can learn skills/feats of other classes, Mages can learn how to wear platemail and wield swords. Clerics can learn to pick locks.  About the only thing that can't be learned cross class is spell casting, but on top of the massive cross class skill learing, and of course, all characters can multiclass, up to triple class. So there is no limit to what your character can choose to be.

Bottom line is that the richness of the D&D system in NWN lets you build the character that matches your imagination, Barbians who blind enemies with spells, Clerics who hide in the shadows, Sword wielding wizards, a monk with dragon blood, etc . vs Generic cookie cutter characters.

On top of the ability to build any character you can imagine, you can play them with your friends in hundreds of excellent modules or on a number of persistent worlds.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lowlander, 12 mars 2011 - 03:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Xenovant]

               I  completely agree with "Lowlander" but I'll add something more: with a basic knowledge
of photoshop, 3dsmax, etc. you can customize almost everything in the game or create something totally new. If you want to create something for DA... pfff...