Wizard vs. Sorcerer differences

[Legacy_Xovian]

               

qaerinju wrote...
22 BAB is just horrible.

For power gaming sure.
But whatever floats your boat.

I do find your personal attacks to be quite lacking though.
Just because someone can have fun with out powergaming, doesnt mean it's "useless" or  "horrid".

Verastility can be rewarding in its own right.
I'm sorry you can't appreciate that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Xovian wrote...
Just because someone can have fun with out powergaming, doesnt mean it's "useless" or  "horrid".

Ok I agree, but then your argument that sorcerrer can make good spellsword too is misleading because following this rule every character (build) is good.

I don't say this is not right, but when I was talking about wizard makes good spellswords, I meant power-build ones...

Even that mentioned sorc/pal/rdd lacks many needed power abilities, all versions missing feats, and if you give more sorc levels you loose ab and attacks, if you give 8 paladin (16bab, some ab spells - short anyway), you lose spell power etc. etc.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xovian]

               Suppose I should have said versatile instead of good then?

I'm really not seeing the spell problem you speak of given the amount that completely ignore saves.
Not to mention those that are subject can be made to use save for half unless whatever it is has improved evasion. Only in very high magic realms is SR a problem, and given the max is pretty much around 32, and it does not stack, even that can be negotiated given the more frequent casts the sorcerer has. Granted some of this will also depend on whether you are referenceing PvM or PvP.

Just my expecience, YMMV.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xovian, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               Powerbuilds aside i.e. for single player campaigns. There were many discussion of this topic in the old Bioware boards. Google search Wizard vs Sorcerer and Wax - you will see a ton of debate (most of it circling back to "what do you prefer" )

http://nwn.bioware.c...464731&forum=42

Wizards with their high INT tend to be able to deploy a lot of different skills especially cross class skills. So while your familiar may be a great thief - the wizard can also be respectable in moving silently, hiding, or disarming traps. However meta magic spells need me memorized in advance.

Sorcerers with the importance of CHA usually have only a moderate INT and therefore cross class skills are somewhat more limited; however the ability to spontaneously cast a meta magic spell using the radial menu without prep can make a huge difference in survivability.

I would argue with a couple/few levels of ranger (Wiz) or paladin (SOR) either make great spell sword melee builds.

So guess what? In the end it is what you prefer
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jfoxtail, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Xovian wrote...

Only in very high magic realms is SR a problem, and given the max is pretty much around 32, and it does not stack, even that can be negotiated given the more frequent casts the sorcerer has. Granted some of this will also depend on whether you are referenceing PvM or PvP.

I always reffering to PvM.

But back to SR. SR 32 is quite low value and many servers giving this to their monsters. (This value is maximum without 2da modification, so thats why you do not need more on most servers.) This means that level 31 caster without feats has 100% chance to penetrate this With Epic Spell Penetration you need only 25 caster level to have 100% chance of penetrating this. With caster level of 20 and without spell penetration feats this chance is reduced to 45%. You can have spell or two more than specialized wizard, but with 45% chance...

SR (from items) of the target can be however lowered via breach spells for a short duration, thats true.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Oh and I forget on spell slots.



At first wizard level you can specialize to spell school which gives you 1 extra spell slot for each level. If you feel you need this then I recommed to take illusions, then you loose only stun/hold/paralyze spells.



But there is major issue with spell slots and thats polymorphing. If you have items which gives you intelligence bonus thus extra spell slots, or even items with extra spell slots specifically then, when you polymorph you lose them and therefore after you unpolymorph you have to prepare these spell slots again manually. This is verry annoying and in fact prevent wizard to use the polymorph spells. Sorcerrer also lose spell slots, but they just need to rest to get them back which is great.



note 1. the polymorphing tactic is only one of many, it is possible to live without it

note 2. ElgarL is working on new NWN client which should fix this issue
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_LugnutUSA]

               I know I'm late to the party here, but after reading this I wanted to also mention the old Melee Wizard build posted ages ago on the old forums:



http://nwn.bioware.c...463703&forum=42



I ran this build through Aielund and had a GREAT time doing it.  It's still one of my favorite builds to play in single player modules to this day, I really enjoy the play style.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               What a fun thread. Thanks to LuguntUSA for the bump because I had somehow missed this last month.

As to the overall topic, it really is a matter of preference for most SP modules. I just finished playing Aielund for the first time. I played MP with a friend and it was great fun. Since there were already two of us (me as wiz with a little rogue, her as pure ranger), we didn't use the henchies, so I hope to play through again one day on my own and see what that's like. But, the point with regard to this thread is that neither of us were really doing any power building (I didn't even realize the module went into epic levels until after we started playing) and we survived most encounters pretty well.

For my tastes, I tend to stray toward jack-of-all-trades characters in SP, so I favor wizards. I end up feeling very confined with the limited skill skill points and feats of a sorcerer and the knowledge that some nice spell I might want to keep memorized if I am likely to face a particular kind of enemy isn't worth taking as a sorcerer, where I have to limit my spells to those more likely to me a little help in most situations, rather than those that might be a big help in just some situations.

I'd love to see the polymorph issue fixed. Even just more API hooks letting scripts access the content of spellbooks / spell slots would be a big help. We could then make it so that a caster remembers which spells occupied his spell slots before he swapped a piece of equipment that adds spell slots. We haven't heard from ElgarL in a while. I hope his project hasn't proved too big an undertaking.

I have never played a Pale Master, so I am curious about this note

For wizards, it pays off to take at least 10 pale master levels pre-epic (that way you get two epic bonus feats for free).

Does taking 10 PM levels before character level 20 result in more feats than a wizard would have otherwise?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MrZork wrote...

I have never played a Pale Master, so I am curious about this note

For wizards, it pays off to take at least 10 pale master levels pre-epic (that way you get two epic bonus feats for free).

Does taking 10 PM levels before character level 20 result in more feats than a wizard would have otherwise?

Yes, but more epic feats. Wizard gets a bonus feat every 5 levels, but the feat selection is extended by epic feats if you take the 5/10/15/20th level at epic. Disadvantage of this is that you have to play until level 21 with poor caster level and less spell known (unless you gain scrolls).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Biotic_Warlock]

               Sorcerer - one character level below wizard determining highest spell book level.

(sorcerer reaches level 2 spells at sorcerer level 4)

Wizard has ability to learn lots more spells and has access to extra class feats.



Also wizard and sorceror have different pretige class possibilities.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Biotic_Warlock wrote...
Also wizard and sorceror have different pretige class possibilities.

And for me, that highlights the main difference... Int vs. Cha.

A wizard is a skill hound which can provide plenty of skillpoints for those dumps to classes that can max them.

A sorcerer is a synergy class which can take advantage of all the other Cha-based classes like pally, BG, CoT, etc. and Cha-based skills like UMD & Taunt (even Persuade benefits).

Of course, the extra wizard feats are always a boon to any caster build '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Biotic_Warlock]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...
Also wizard and sorceror have different pretige class possibilities.

And for me, that highlights the main difference... Int vs. Cha.

A wizard is a skill hound which can provide plenty of skillpoints for those dumps to classes that can max them.

A sorcerer is a synergy class which can take advantage of all the other Cha-based classes like pally, BG, CoT, etc. and Cha-based skills like UMD & Taunt (even Persuade benefits).

Of course, the extra wizard feats are always a boon to any caster build '>

And sorcerors make good multiclasses with paladin
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 13 février 2011 - 06:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Xovian wrote...

qaerinju wrote...
Ouch it hurts just looking at that. No AB, no AC, no Warding, no spell power or penetration -  in many environments it would be close to useless.
I suppose you can get away with it in SP though.

I mild AB, with three attacks per round and critcal threaten on a 14 (if keen weapon).
With that type of crit chance, you don't need a high BAB

Which is a misleading statement, since crit range alone ain't worth a dime. A large crit range does not equal a lot of crits landed.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 13 février 2011 - 08:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               Sorc everytime, (well unless it's a low level module and I want to play a sneaky strategic tactical mage as opposed to only being able to scout with the pixie, but ultimately, even if I don't shapeshift and lose spells that way, I grow to hate the annoyance of changing the quickbar for spells all the time, so it's pause all the time to use the radial menu or be a very slow and ineffective caster or redo the quickbar yet again. With the sorc I know which F buttons have which spell lvls and I can fit all the offensive spells into it.)

But sorc struggles for feats, while wizard doesn't, and if you want a spellsword, you need the combat feats, because you do need AB unless the enemies are easy. You would likely want a wide variety of buffs which can tend to wiz again, tho MCing with cleric or pal to get divine might can make decent use of the sorc CHA. AA is a far better choice tho because you dont sacrifice the caster stat for str or dex just so you can hit something. Cleric's divine power (9-10+ lvls) is another way to get a useful BAB and then because you have a high cha you do some serious damage with a cha based sorc. s26-29/cl10-13/m1-4 is one of my favourite characters as is s26-29/aa10-13/(oh lots of choices for the 3rd class *grin*).

In any sort of PvP or online I'd go sorc all the time tho, simply for the quickslot issue and the fact I prefer the RP. Oh and PvP sorc vs mage, the advatage is definitly with the sorc, (which I bet draws some comments *cheeky grin*)

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

(which I bet draws some comments *cheeky grin*)

Not really, its probably true. The default Fire Arrow behaviour (which is probably not correct) helps the sorcs very much too.