Wizard vs. Sorcerer differences

[Legacy_Spartansfan8888]

                From what I understand already, sorcerers can cast spells more times a day and don't have to prepare them in advance.  Wizards, on the other hand, can learn spells from scrolls and ultimately know more spells, but have to prepare them in advance and can't cast as many.

I haven't played a caster up to a very high level but I'm just wondering how the play style between the two differs over time if at all.  Does the sorcerer take advantage of being able to cast more times and just throw fireballs like crazy while the wizard is more of a disabler who lets their allies do the actual killing?

I'm looking to start the Aieland saga and develop a different type of character than the three I've already done (cleric, fighter, ranger/arcane archer).  But also if you have a suggestion of a good class for this mod, even if its a cleric, fighter or archer just let me know that too.  

Thanks
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Spartansfan8888, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Well I wouldnt said that sorcerrer has more spells, but he can cast spontaneously, that means that he can cast any spell of given level instead any other spell from that level. So you basically have lets say 9 spell uses from lvl 6. So you can either cast 9 times IGMS, or true seeing+8xigms etc. While wizard must prepare exact number of spell and if he use his only memorised true seeing, and he got dispell he is lost. However...

Wizard can make scrolls (EDIT: yes sorcerrer too, but he must take the feat that wizard get for free). In module where is possible to find empty scrolls, this is great advantage, because you can make scrolls of the spells you dont want to have memorised all the time, like that true seeing.

Wizard is better suited multiclassing because he gains bonus feat every five level until 20 and then 3  levels thereafter and for Pale Master prestige class too. While sorcerrer is usualy good only pure and his advantage of the spontaneous casting is most used in PvP because for PvM he has too small spell selection unlike wizard.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

                Both are very well written classes. To the point you could first think of who and how you are and choose wizard or sorcerer from that angle. For instance, not being very bright myself but amazingly intuitive and sensual, according to my wife but not only, I realized I felt much better being a sorcerer than of the scholar type.
Beside, you never really know what's about to happen on your way for saving the planet, and a sorcerer couldn't have made the wrong choice of spells ever... as he doesn't have to make that choice at all.
It's very much about you, see. And a huge difference on a roleplaying point of view. Now, the real question for one just about to play The Aielund saga is about going for a sorcerer... or a sorceress. I played it four? times. One as a bardess... and three as as sorceress. A roleplaying decision... but it's got a lot to do because of the henchies as well.
Here, those are not to be forgotten.

Sorcerer is to spectacle what a wizard is to spectacles.
And sorceress to sunglasses a wizardess to glasses. 


               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:36 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

jmlzemaggo wrote...

Beside, you never really know what's about to happen on your way for saving the planet, and a sorcerer couldn't have made the wrong choice of spells ever... as he doesn't have to make that choice at all.

Thats not exactly true. Sorcerrer have only three spells known for level 6 to 9 (at lvl 20), and he doesnt gain new known spells at epic levels. So if you choose unusable spell, it may be very hard to play. And you can change your selection only at new level up.

General spell selection for sorcerrer is:
6 - Isaac greater missile storm, bigby bullrush hand and either true seeing or chain lightning
7 - shadow shield, finger of death and prismatic spray or you can take spell mantle instead of prismatic/finger but SS is essential
8 - horrid wilting, greater sanctuary, premonition (in high magic enviroment, premotion is mostly useless so you can take mind blank or bigby's clenched fist)
9 - shapechange, wail of banshee, black blade of disaster or mordeinkainens disjunction and bigbys crushing hand (replace for any of them, they have all the same usability)

In most singleplayer modules, you can survive even with bad spell selection, but for most PWs having the best spell selection is essential.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Spartansfan8888]

               Well let me first say thanks to both of you for taking time to answer and for your advice.  It seems jml is more an advocate of the sorcerer while shadow is more inclined towards wizard.



Multiclassing isn't my plan for this character as I want it to be a pure caster, but I understand the pale master prestige class still lets you gain spells in your original class?



Right now I am leaning towards sorcerer mostly because every spell he knows is available right then and there and it seems like he has more spell slots at each level.  I do like the wizard's ability to scribe scrolls and ultimately have a larger arsenal, but what is the point of knowing all those spells if you can't cast them?  I feel like if I play a wizard I'll be on edge whether to cast a spell or not in a battle because if it could have been won easily anyway I wasted a valuble scarce spell.  Maybe you can help me with that shadow.  Or is a large part of playing these arcane classes making sure you have magical wands, scrolls, weapons and items to cover the spells you don't know?  



But anyways, thanks to both of you again for the help and any more advice you can give is appreciated
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Well both wizard and sorcerrer must spare as much spells as possible, if there is not possible to rest after the battle. If the resting is possible, you don't have to. In single player modules you mostly can, so you can rest before (and with wizard change your spell selection) and after the battle. If you know what you can expect, the wizard is better. But you don't in SP modules, thats rather PW advantage.



I can't say I "advocate" wizards, I play for both wiz and sorc. But I use them for various situations and tactics.



First to say, in single player module where you start at level 1 all of this is irrelevant. Such module is playable with everything and in lower levels the differences between sorc/wiz and their tactics do not manifest.



Mostly sorcerrers do not want to be hit, they rely on high AC from Divine Shield ability, and they try to lure as much monsters as possible on them and then kill them all with aoe spells. This tactic is very fast and powerfull. They often casts in armor with (automatic) still spell metamagic.



Wizards can do this too, but they can achieve such high AC only by sacrificing spell power and spell count, taking more Pale Master levels and/or dexterity instead of intelligence.



But they can due to Pale Masters immunities rely on *being hit* and then cause backward damage trough damage shield spells - death armor, elementar shield, mestils acid sheat. Such wizards rely on high constitution and many hit points and on healing from potions or healers kits or regeneration. If this is available, this tactic is ultimate.



And best on the wizard is his multiclass ability, I know you want pure mage so this is irrelevant for you but can interest anyone else readin this thread. So while sorcerrer cast spell from charisma which is used also with Divine Shield/Might/Grace abilities, wizard uses inteligence which means., that he gains more skill points. While Sorcerrer needs at least 13 inteligence too, wizard do not need neither point in charisma, so he can have higher stats - strenght/constitution/dexterity. Also since the wizard gets bonus feat every five levels he don't have feat problem unlike sorcerrer, because they all needs all metamagic feats - extend, still/silent (AC/noAC), empower, maximize. If you would multiclass wizards in way so he could fight in melee or ranged, wizard is best for this because he gain 5 bonus spellcasting feats, so he spend those seven general feats for combat abilities. Sorcerrer cant do that, so he must choose ither metamagic feats or combat feats.



And your question about Pale Master. Its not so simple with the spell gain. Every odd pale master level gives wizard one his level as far as spell slots concerned. But not caster level (which mean spell power so taking only pale master levels is not good idea because your spell power will sucks), spells know (so he must learn spells from scrolls) neither better familiar. Sorcerrer gains nothing spell related (something yes, but not useful, see NWN Wiki for details). Thats why I said, that wizard is better suited for Pale Master. Anyway since level 20 there is almost nothing, that wizard/sorcerrer levels gives you, taking Pale Master with 20 level of sorcerrer isn't so bad choice, but not until then. For wizards, it pays off to take at least 10 pale master levels pre-epic (that way you get two epic bonus feats for free).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

                Well, that's a hell of a good lesson and I read it all. I'm not going on the power and tech side of that choice, since I couldn't, only on the feeling, the groove one. And where you're right, ShaDoOoW, by going for the wizard because of the relation between intelligence and skill points, I was more considering myself the module Spartansfan8888 wants to play, and the Aielund saga to me is a charisma module if not the one.
I just stepped into Spartansfan8888's shoes, as a very thoughtful and concerned player who is just about to enter Savant's world for four very long chapters. A module in which resting isn't so much of a problem, if I recall rightly. Beside, we're talking SP game here, my sissy NWN, and I would follow ShaDoOoW's advice with no hesitation in a MP game. And probably hide behind him!
I can't give any other advice beside that one regarding this very dear module. Since I'm playing a lot of evil PCs at the moment, cleric, assassin, blackguard... and I'm afraid I'm getting a bit too creepy for Robert's test... But I'm very fond of the spellcaster build of clerics myself. Those are insanely devastating.
I'm no tech, I play by my feelings only.

And I have only one NWN rule:
Avoiding multiplayer at all cost! 
I'm that kind of hero...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Xovian]

               I would say each has their own advantage and their own uniqueness they can offer in game play.

I tend to multiclass a lot.
I tend to make builds that are very well rounded, and the only difference I think I have found is that sorcerers are generally better at going the spellsword (or sorc/melee) route then a wizard. However, the wizard isn't useless in this, but seems better for more rogueish style play when multiclassed.

The reasons for this is because of the available prestige classes.

With out a doubt, Red Dragon Disciple is easily melee playable given the attribute bonuses, and since they can only be sorcerer (or bard) it goes a long way to achieving that goal for a mixed character.

On the other hand a Pale Master, works wonderfully with a Wizard because they can keep gaining spell levels. They can keep getting scrolls to increase their spells, even though they do not get more spells from leveling up, but they do gain slots. As to the more apt at roguish style of play, they have more INT, thus more points, and a side remark for Pale Master, hide/move silently are class skills.

On an off note, my favorite character I ever made was a 20Sorc/10Pale/10RDD.
Has 30STR with no buffs, dual wield Kurki (and the feats to go with them) as well as Dev crit.
In melee I can hold my own, and if the opponent is more dangerous in melee then me, I have lots of no save spells to throw around. With a Pixie familiar, I have a lot of options that many class combination's simply do not.
Finding the strengths of what each of the two spell slingers do well with is half the fun.

For a pure class, there isn't gonna be much difference beyond personally preference. If you tend for puzzle and thinking mods, wiz is probably best. If you like the 'ol hack and slash, then odds are a sorcerer will do better especially if there is some form of rest restrictions (I really do hate those for any class though)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xovian, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Spartansfan8888]

               Wow.... you guys know your stuff.



Thank you both again for all your info.  I feel like I understand these two classes a lot better now not just for this playthrough but for future ones too.  I feel like a wizard/rogue would be a nice multiclass to play and you've alleviated my fears as to which class I ultimately pick for the single player module as it seems like both would eventually be devastating pure casters.  I guess it just comes down to RP'ing choices for this module which I've heard nothing but good things about.  



Thanks again
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Xovian wrote...

On an off note, my favorite character I ever made was a 20Sorc/10Pale/10RDD.

Yea sorc can be well paired with rdd to make good spellsword, however wizard is well suited to be paired with anything else - weapon master, arcane archer, cleric. When I was making a spellsword, the sorc/pal/rdd was first what came into my mind, but the AB was so poor that I had to thought again and because of devastating it lacked pretty essential metamagic feats. But its playable thats for sure.

So my favorite character is 23wizard/2fighter/15AA, ab 60, 5 attacks+rapid shot, epic warding, epic spell penetration to hurt SR32 monsters and bow proved to be better than sword because I can hurt monsters without possibility to be hurt myself because my AC is equal to zero :happy:.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               Wizard/Rogue is quite an interesting option, that's for sure.
If one plays on the hardcore difficulty level, the highest one, the "reality" one, he has to be concerned not to hurt his own people. About playing the scout of the party then, the wiz of shades? Exploring stealthy, and launching two or three of your most devastating area spells on still assembled groups of foes, without having any of your friends in the vicinity, then run and hide behind them, luring what's left of the already half dead ennemies right under their mighty swords?
That's fun. As funny as scary. Double fun. I call it the Rabbit myself...
I misunderstood you Spartansfan8888, as I thought you already played that greatest saga.
Without being to much of a 

*** spoiler***, 

you're just about to meet quite powerful henchies on your may, which frees you to have to think about power. You're free to do whatever you want, as you gonna make it alive anyway. Someone is going to watch over you, especially if you go for playing as a girl...

One of the reasons why this is an excellent module, it's a perfect opportunity to do whatever you want... and only care about roleplaying NWN, as much as you can in SP anyway..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 16 janvier 2011 - 08:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

Xovian wrote...

On an off note, my favorite character I ever made was a 20Sorc/10Pale/10RDD.
Has 30STR with no buffs, dual wield Kurki (and the feats to go with them) as well as Dev crit.

Ouch it hurts just looking at that. No AB, no AC, no Warding, no spell power or penetration -  in many environments it would be close to useless.
I suppose you can get away with it in SP though.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xovian]

               

qaerinju wrote...
Ouch it hurts just looking at that. No AB, no AC, no Warding, no spell power or penetration -  in many environments it would be close to useless.
I suppose you can get away with it in SP though.

I mild AB, with three attacks per round and critcal threaten on a 14 (if keen weapon).
With that type of crit chance, you don't need a high BAB, though i wont say there isnt better.
The build has out right more immunities base then almost any other combination.
Very few creatures have a high spell resistance unless they are heavily modified.
Even the epic players handbook (3.0 for nwn) doesnt give that out so easily.

In many environments = High magic relams where AC / Immunites are given out like candy.
Maybe these days that is considered top, but you won't find anything outside of +5 anything in the realms I play in or make. If artifacts were as common as they are in HoTU, it's no wonder you think this way.

Simply put, we obviously play very different games.

and bow proved to be better than sword because I can hurt monsters
without possibility to be hurt myself because my AC is equal to zero [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie].

Very True.
Sometimes the more fun builds are on the off beaten path.
If I want to play more of a power build, I'll play my epic shifter.
Literally the only thing that scares em, is a high level raging barbarian (fear aura is the one weakness).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xovian, 17 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Xovian wrote...

I mild AB, with three attacks per round and critcal threaten on a 14 (if keen weapon).
With that type of crit chance, you don't need a high BAB, though i wont say there isnt better.

Beware. Thats not entirely correct, do not forget threat roll.

If you got AB of lets say 40 and you need to hit monster with AC 50, even if you roll a 14 which is 54, you must roll at least 10 at threat roll to this hit be really critical. Thats for first attack in flurry, because next attacks are -5AB, its even more difficult to score critical hit with such low AB.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

Xovian wrote...

With that type of crit chance, you don't need a high BAB

Simply put, we obviously play very different games.

If that's what you think, then we are playing different games. 22 BAB is just horrible.