Author Topic: Question about monk and ranger weapons  (Read 1288 times)

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2011, 09:28:28 pm »


               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

You cant say your opinion and then stop the discussion on that topic. I don't agree with you.

I dont agree that you dont agree with me! 

On low or mid magic servers monk is very good class for cleric. It gives cleric with 18 or 20 wisdom up to +10-11 AC from wisdom +1AC/5monk levels which is uber. Also speed is great factor allowing fast movement without need for haste which isnt on most of these servers available.

+1 AC for FIVE lvls isnt uber!  It gimps the cleric side of the build, which is way more powerful.  Speed, sure.  Again, you sacrifice divine power for speed.  Isnt that what Hold person is for?  '<img'> 

There are two good builds with cleric/monk. One with fighter/CoT to get 4 attacks without need for divine power, more feats thus better AC because of dex/wis and 1 up six monk levels at the end to get tumble/speed/AC/and IKD for free. Or there is possibility to take Epic Dodge which means either shadowdancer or rogue class. Especially this combination is very uber on these kind of servers at least on those I have played (but I must admit those were not many). Godly AC, with ED and plenty of healing. But not wisdom but dex based because of AB. 18 or 20 wisdom is enough to get more AC than with shield, cleric 20 rogue 10 monk 10 combo with 20 base wisdom gets up to 12 ac from monk while with tower shield +5 it would be only 8 AC not to mention that halfling which is good race for this build gives another 1ac and better dex. Cleric then can buff strenght to 18 with one spell.

The one problem with GENERAL dex monks is DAMAGE output!  Woodpeckers!  While the cleric lvls help (as maybe would SA), I would never trade godly ac, etc for abiltiy to deal out damage.  Sorry, I have done both dex clerics and str clerics, and I so much prefer to kill FAST than sit all day hacking away at a rat. 

For high magic enviroment, cleric monks can still be very good. Depends on equipment, if there are better robes than armor and how good can be kamas and shields. But yes mostly it doesn't pay off because tower shield +7 and more gives you exactly the same ac as monk would give.

Using gloves and go unarmed is option realy only if there are uber gloves or if there are not kamas.

But yes cleric/PM combo owns all servers without exception. But not everyone wants to play this (stupid) build.

Not sure why you bring up cleric/pm.  That was the uber build, way back in 2005!  Oh well.  The rest of this is doulbe talk!  "cleric monks are good, depending on items"  um, that is High magic! 

Your game play is pvp and I respect that.  I played ONLY pvm (and had most fun with PRC) so just maybe we have different ideas?  That said, what you say, in my mind, sounded alot like what I meant!  Maybe Im old and jaded!  LOL
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 01:58:00 am »


               A brawler monk25/clc15 in GS will own the pure cleric of his choice if the cleric has fewer than fort 30 saves. I've noticed that clerics don't cast very effectively when laying on their back IKD'd or stun-locked.   It happens so fast it seems like the server is bugged.  Turns out that elemental summon that appeared to be alone really wasn't. '<img'>

With the uber save boosters of high-magic environments 30+ saves is normal, so is a much less dependable tactic.

So you guys enjoy high-magic environments?  Interesting.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:08 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 04:43:46 am »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

So you guys enjoy high-magic environments?  Interesting.

LMAO!  OHHH!!   The shame of being a liker of high magic!!   NOT!

To be truthful, I enjoyed MOST a server that had ONE +7 bastard sword (highest was +5 on everything else).  To get perma-haste, we had to craft and craft and craft (hunt the server for items, etc).  and it was a set of gloves with ONLY haste on them.  AT the moment i was fed up, I found the mountain and it had PRC and some really GOOD character builders AND you could design your own gear.  That it had +10 gear and PRC epic mage armor (for clerics = +20 Armor AC) it was pretty fun. 

The humorous thing was, I ALWAYS built for ECB with mundane gear!  The nice gear just made it so much better.  I did try a lv 20 server one time and got to a point (lv 13 iirc), but I got bored with hunting for no experience.  I also was a HUGE magic finder in my diablo 2 days (circa 2001-2002) so finding gear is in my blood.  If i dont find nice stuff, I tend not to stick around long. 

OH, and we could go on and on about "on this server cleric/monk is ubererer than... " its all BS anyway.  If you want to get away from vanilla nwn then there isnt much that could even come close to a well built PRC divine cleric based character (not even the dragon WITH dev crit).  It is better to stick to vanilla, cuz then, monk/cleric at least has a chance!  Oh, and for the record, I dont consider 10 monk to be a monk character.  It is wasted cheese (I am not getting into semantics about what is or isnt a class BS).  I am simply refering to a cleric20+ character is much better at a wider variety of killing than a monk20+, despite the monk having speed, etc.  Yes, the monk is cheese, but to take cleric lvls away in a cleric/monk build is hindering the overall killing ability and versatility of the build for, really nothing.    Maybe I should have said that before, but thats what happens when your family is rushing you...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 01:03:50 pm »


               If we are talking about PRC, then the Sacred Fist PrC was one of the most uber build on my old PRC Action server. And thats *unarmed* monk/cleric btw '<img'>.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2011, 03:43:58 pm »


               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

If we are talking about PRC, then the Sacred Fist PrC was one of the most uber build on my old PRC Action server. And thats *unarmed* monk/cleric btw '<img'>.


Are you serious?  SF is a sucker class!  For divine, there are so many other classes that add so much to the cleric!  You really got to get off unarmed man!  No weapon is NOT in any way, uber.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2011, 07:08:33 pm »


               Well there is the old problem with PRC that most class abilities do not work properly and the SF was one of few that worked. Like Alaghar would be awesome class but his abilities has crappy implementation (the tripple damage ability is a spell that make fake attacks, AB and damage do not match, and character is flatfooded some time), which makes that class almost useless. Well SF have fire+divine additional damage when unarmed and its almost 35 level cleric and 35 level of monk in one build, almost DM speed, godly AC, and with practised spellcaster 39 caster level, I do not remember better class for cleric. (Yes, there was Lich and after I banned him it was Baelnorn who owned my server, but I dont take this as class for cleric) The only problem with SF was that Intuitive attack was also crappy implemented, limited to +20 ab cap, so this build must have been either STR or DEX based.

My old PW was high magic with standard nwn items like gloves up to +10, robes up to +10, but melee weapons up to +8, haste item available.

So with +10 gloves thats (base wisdom 20, str based lets say 28 strenght, +12 from items):
1d20 fist damage, +15 from STR, +20 fire +20 divine damage, +5magic from divine favor, +1physical from prayer,+2magical from battletide + any damage from gloves. I dont know how good gloves are available on Shadow Mountains (was unable to find this server on gamespy today) but in my old PRC module there was +10 standard gloves which was mostly +10 direct or 1d12 elementar damage.

Most servers have much better gloves, for example the server I play atm, has up to three socketed weapons, up to +8, but only gloves may be +10. And now unlike other weapons gloves has additional damage and special ability except attack bonus.

There are gloves with ab+vorpal, ab+negative damage+onhit stun, enhancement+fire damage+cast spell fire arrow and ab+electrical+onhit blind. Personally made build on the fire gloves which have not attack but enhancement bonus which is great. Also the fire damage is 2d10 on the +7 ones I have now. Now I can put there three 1d12 gems (all element damage and magic type), then upgrade it with keen and vampire regeneration up to +4 and +1 to all abilities. (Rather do not ask how much looting and time it needs ...)

While socketed kamas like every other weapons except composite bows have only enhancement bonus +1-3 sockets. There are some unique weapons, but only few pieces can overcome socketed weapons and thats only great axe and maybe scimitar whose got divine/positive damage which is not on socketing gems.

The higher grounds is another server where are unarmed builds greatly enhanced. Their gloves are very good and there are flags that can be wear in shield slot while retaining monk abilities which gives many additional bonuses.

In all these modules it seems to me that unarmed is almost as good as any other weapon except those with lowest critical threat.

And whats the situation on Shadow Mountains then?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:13 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_NorthWolf

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2011, 09:46:11 pm »


               Since the PRC isn't very well-balanced (no offense), this seems like a silly argument. There are a lot of ridiculously powerful builds you can coax out of it and a lot of strange combinations that work anyway.



I've only played up to level 25 online, but in my experience it's nearly impossible to pull off unarmed monks at level 25 or below when compared to other builds.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shia Luck

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 07:56:54 pm »


               

avado wrote...
... No weapon is NOT in any way, uber.


That depends on environment. If this is toolset uber we are talking then everyone can have resist 30- for all damage types and then your flame weaponed kamas will have their flame resisted. The GMW enhancement of +5 and the base damage will give an avergae of 8-ish, and then it's down to getting as much physical damage in the form of magical bonuses on the kama, no? (Unarmed starts with an average of 11-ish). The max elemental is +20 so with resist 30 they are all irrelevant. It's about doing enough piercing and bludgeoning and slashing damage to break through the resists, no?

Under 1.68 they would all (piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage) stack, but I haven't tried under 1.69 and I think that rule might have changed, so it could become very hard to get through that level of resist now.

However it works now there's one very important factor not being taken into account. For a given item level, you can put more magical bonuses on gloves than you can on weapons, so if you can craft your own gear you can definitly get more damage added to gloves than a weapon.

Try it in PGCC (because that one tells you the level of the item you just made) or the toolset.

Have fun '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 11:28:58 pm »


               

Shia Luck wrote...

... For a given item level, you can put more magical bonuses on gloves than you can on weapons, so if you can craft your own gear you can definitly get more damage added to gloves than a weapon.


WHAT!!!??  Ok, first, IF you are talking about junk on gear, then IF you find  pair of mitts with "lots" on them,the weapons and shields will ALSO have tons of junk on them.  Then, NOT having 2 slots of junk on gear means you arent as good as you can be.  This isnt rocket science, or is it?  The magic level of the pw IS important, yes.  However, the higher the magic level, the more EVERTHING is raised, and the more assinine it becaomes to hamper a build with 2 empty slots.  THAT said, YES, if you have a uber godly pair of mitts that beats a pair of mitts, weapon (or 2 depending on build) and/or shield, then by all means.  In my nearly 7 years of playing, I have YET to see such mitts, but who knows, it could happen!  And pigs just could start to fly like eagles as well  'Posted

This is all hypothetical as we dont play the same server, etc.  However, I tended to talk in generalities (a bad thing that the ECB taught me). 
               
               

               
            

Legacy_NorthWolf

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 11:46:28 pm »


               If you're really going to bother talking about it, unarmed has certain advantages. A level 20 monk has the highest base damage weapon available in Neverwinter Nights, and bludgeoning doesn't tend to be resisted much on account of not many bludgeoning weapons being used due to their stats. On a server with a large base of high resistance, critical immune creatures, unarmed is better than dual-wielding kamas in many ways because you have a higher chance of overcoming said resistance. Stunning fist can actually be useful against certain creatures with low will saves, etc.



As for the actual enhancements on the equipment you're using, that depends largely on the module you're in. Arguing that you haven't seen decent gauntlets in seven years is merely noting you haven't seen any modules that enable unarmed monks.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 08:22:22 pm »


               Base damage is a joke (there are way to many damage pluses you can get cheaply and with unarmed, you loose 2 weapon slots and thus loose on 2 times these).  Damage type is not so important either.  I played with scrims most of my 6 years of playing and rarely, if ever had issues with doing damage.  Also the crit of 20 is soo nice (19-20 with ic)!  



You seem to think that your arguments are "new".  In ECB we discussed this for YEARS, with every possible reason and wherewithal, and the "best" minds in nwn all came to the same conclusion (which is opposite of yours (and I wasnt part of that cuz unarmed is really a silly way to play nwn- for all reasons I have listed in this silly thread).  SO, maybe you know more than te best.  I dont think so, but maybe you do.  



All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it).  And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn, wpn/shield).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 09:56:33 pm »


               

avado wrote...

All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it).

Yes. And I agree that in most, I would said that 75%, modules it really doesn't pay off. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic
environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic
world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn,
wpn/shield).

You still talking about three items, but thats not really correct. We are talking here about monk/cleric build. With monk whats the advantage of shield when you losing speed/monk AC/and mainly monk UBAB. Do not forget -3ab progression for monk UBAB, thats something I specifically build this character on the server I play. And thats exactly why most players are making these builds. So I do not understand why you are equate unarmed with weapon+shield.

I think that the question "Is monk/cleric better than non-monk cleric or any other build." that you are proposing secretly is irrelevant at least for this discussion, and is much harder to answer than it seems.

In general low magic environment, monk AC gives you same or even more than tower shields (if +12 wisdom is possible to attain). Also in general low magic environment mundane flamed+gmwed (+keen if available) kamas with 10 attacks is equal to mundane scimitar/kukri with the same.

For general high magic you are definitely right.


But IMO you should only equate unarmed with dual-wielding or single wield kama (if flag is available it may pay off to fight with one kama with possibility to dual-wield in some situations). Which is lost of
the one slot. I don't think that equating with non monk builds is in
place.

And you also forgot about my argument with flag. Thats for example available on Higher Grounds with monk bonuses. And HG is high magic environment, almost uber. And I think that unarmed is as much playable there as anything else. I tried it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_NorthWolf

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2011, 09:08:37 pm »


               

avado wrote...

Base damage is a joke (there are way to many damage pluses you can get cheaply and with unarmed, you loose 2 weapon slots and thus loose on 2 times these).  Damage type is not so important either.  I played with scrims most of my 6 years of playing and rarely, if ever had issues with doing damage.  Also the crit of 20 is soo nice (19-20 with ic)!

The entire thing is still environmental. If you joined a server where the primary enemy was undead, who are critical immune, pretty much everyone would have a chuckle at you for picking a scimitar. They have low base damage and several undead types are, as per D&D, supposed to resist slashing/piercing, meaning you'd essentially be making a hard time for yourself.

avado wrote...

You seem to think that your arguments are "new".  In ECB we discussed this for YEARS, with every possible reason and wherewithal, and the "best" minds in nwn all came to the same conclusion (which is opposite of yours (and I wasnt part of that cuz unarmed is really a silly way to play nwn- for all reasons I have listed in this silly thread).  SO, maybe you know more than te best.  I dont think so, but maybe you do.

That's silly. People keep saying that the entire situation is environmental, and certainly no one thinks this sort of argument is new. Discussions about how good monks were in comparison to other classes have been going on since the game was released nine years ago, before there were epic levels to tinker with. And pretty much it's always going to remain situational, because the game is geared towards custom content as opposed to any sort of consistent combat mechanic.

avado wrote...


All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it).  And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn, wpn/shield).

ShaDoOow pretty much covered this entirely. I'm glad you're willing to admit it's always going to be module-specific, and I've seen modules that enabled monk builds, including unarmed monk builds. Though I most defer to what ShaDo0ow has said about teh ph4t equipments in low-/high-magic worlds.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 05:52:38 pm »


               http://nwn.bioware.c...221720&gid=8061

In my view, the very best of unarmed builds is this.  It isnt a monk (for reasons described in post).  Funny, n base damage, no monk ac, etc yet it achieves something a monk cant! 

Again, this discussion was done over and over.  When I said that it is environment dependant I mean it.  However, the environment is very very rare, one where the ultimate item in the game is a pair of monk gloves (to be better than the bonuses from 2 wpns and a pair of mitts).  I have not seen on mod named where this is the case because it isnt so, though it could be.  And regardless, that is ONE mod where this anomoly stands true. 

What has happened to nwn?  In ECB we ALWAYS discussed based on GENERAL nwn, not specifics.  The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant, which should tell you something.  I am at a loss.  I can only pray that nwn will not continue down this path, though it looks to be the case. 
               
               

               
            

Legacy_qaerinju

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Question about monk and ranger weapons
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 06:50:52 pm »


               

The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant 


The entire argument for everything is environment dependent. How many servers are vanilla NWN? They're massively outnumbered by servers with changes to this that and the other. Long live variety.