Question about monk and ranger weapons

[Legacy_Spartansfan8888]

               Just a couple quick questions:

For monks- what is the difference between fighting with a kama and fighting unarmed? Would said monk use a shield with a kama for the increased AC?

For rangers- They get all two weapon fighting perks as long as they wear light armor correct?  Also, for the offhand weapon is it better to use another full size weapon (ex: longsword) or something smaller like a dagger or shortsword?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Just a couple quick questions:

For monks- what is the difference between fighting with a kama and fighting unarmed? Would said monk use a shield with a kama for the increased AC?

kama is slashing, unarmed is bludgeoning
kama base dmg is fixed, unarmed gradually increases very high (1-20 iirc)
kama can't use stunning fist or other unarmed-only modes
only with dual kamas will you obtain the highest APR of 10
a low-wis, unarmed monk can definitely benefit by using a shield (with the applicable proficiency feat)
the only reason I can see to single-wield a kama would be if the enhancements were extreme, otherwsie kama attack pales to unarmed.  so kama/shield would usually be a bad idea.
a high-wis monk will lose all monk AC bonus using either armor or shield

Spartansfan8888 wrote...
For rangers- They get all two weapon fighting perks as long as they wear light armor correct?  

Correct.  None heavier than light armor.  Depending on if multiclassed, robes work as well.

Spartansfan8888 wrote...
Also, for the offhand weapon is it better to use another full size weapon (ex: longsword) or something smaller like a dagger or shortsword?

Depends on race size.  Halfling must use either dagger or kukri (for example) offhand or incur the penalty.
Shortsword is fine for larger races.  Off hand always needs to be a weapon size at least 1 smaller than the wielder size or will sustain significant attack penalties.

Unless your build is feat-rich DW-ing different weapon types can be a problem. Be aware that you will need foci/specialization in 2 weapon types unless you dual-wield identical types (i.e. w/enough ftr levels, this can be done).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 23 décembre 2010 - 03:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               Hey, I learned a couple of things here.
I played a ranger for my first time, in A Tangled Web, and it's such a fine class to be played in the open. A ranger looses his dual-wield feat if wearing medium and heavier, correct, but here, I went for the archer type of ranger, so elegant, and so efficient as well. The point is the way the game was going, and also the armors I could find, I decided to go for the 'point blank shot' feat and wearing medium. 
Bearing in mind than the module environnement itself as to be considered adds very much to the role-playing feeling.
'meaning the way you dress also depends very much on where you "live".
As Hip was saying, wearing a smaller weapon off-hand is better on a "mathematical" point of view, but considering you might want to focus and specialize in longswords for instance, wielding two 2 longswords could maybe loose some power on the size side, but maybe do better in the end than using an "unspecialized" short sword.
Like to go by the book... but not reading the right one maybe.


I don't care anymore about that, once I've taken one focus feat for a specific weapon, "ambidextry" and "two weapons fighting" being such a, in my opinion, way too much of a feat luxury in NWN anyway, if not using a ranger from the start... 
Mostly because there is one thing I wanna keep in sight, no matter what: playing.
And wielding two katanas for instance is worth every eventual penalty just for the sight of it.
This is where I would allow myself cheating without a thought.

The module really matters. And this is the module here which made me take a couple of rogue levels on my way, and the combination ranger/rogue was heaven.
I even regretted being human at some point and not able to enjoy an arcane archer.


(I actually never really understood why wizard is elf’s favored class...)

I haven't played many monks, but I'm curious about that kamas/unarmed monk idea... which I never clearly understood...
From The _Krit, in Wiki: Kamas are the only weapon in NWN that allow monks to retain their special unarmed base attack bonus and the use of their flurry of blows feat...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 23 décembre 2010 - 09:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               Using a shield loses the monk all the special monk abilities so not a lot of point to it I'm afraid.



The advantage of kamas is more attacks per round if you dual wield, kamas can be flame weaponed or darkfired, and you gain the glove equipment slot. And you only need a single level of monk.



Unarmed gets more base damage and looks cool tho, especially with Alternate combat animations (See JML's link in his sig for a link to that), but you need 16+ lvls for that.



IIRC, when the enhancement level is higher than +6, kamas are better.



Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Shia Luck wrote...
Using a shield loses the monk all the special monk abilities so not a lot of point to it I'm afraid.

There are occasionally instances where adding the shield AC can allow a low-wis unarmed monk to survive where it might otherwise be pummeled into oblivion (like against a mob of flanking devcritters), but many of the best special abilities are affected... APR, dmg, move speed.  However, the ones that still function the same with shield are still handy.... flurry, monk SR, Poison Immune, Stunning Fist & Quivering Palm.  It just depends on the build and the situation really whether a feat vested in shield proficiency will ever be utilized.

Besides, monks seldom need all the quick slots therefore shields can be swapped during combat quickly and easily.

The advantage of kamas is more attacks per round if you dual wield, kamas can be flame weaponed or darkfired, and you gain the glove equipment slot. And you only need a single level of monk.

And combining those also stack the fire dmg (Flaming Wpm + Immolate) on EACH kama along with other props like Keen Weapon and Holy Avenger.  Hence, the bias towards the slashing kama-wielders evolves.

One misconception, well... for me anyway, was that unarmed would be a two-fisted attack in NWN.  Alas, monks in NWN must have trouble balancing properly because their unarmed attack provides no increase in APR as if dual-wielding weapons.  You'd think, between two fists and two feet, unarmed would provide the highest APR of all, but it doesn't.  So fists are not technically considered weapons as far a NWN is concerned even if the monk is concealing a roll of nickels within each grasp '>


@jml: I personally have never sacrificed combat effectiveness for coolness and am quite happy swatting kobolds with a rolled-up newspaper as long as the hidden lead pipe inside leaves a suitable impression. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

                We all know you're a monster! 
I remember playing a monk in an heaviest combat oriented epic module, Citadel, not to name it... And "unarmed hitting" foes for hours for no result.
I never played monks ever since... as I only like those fighting unarmed.
The "Alternate combat animations" Shia mentionned come with 5? different monk styles and those are heaven to watch.
I'm desperately a fashion guy, and I care more about style than you do, even if I disagree with myself about that! Too late for me, beyond redemption I'm afraid. '>
But how come half of the add-ons for NWN are about beautifying then? '>

And I'm a simple man, rules like "Kama +6 only" are rules I can easily remember.
So, thanks for the tip, lady! 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Spartansfan8888]

               Thanks for all that info guys; yeah I just started chapter 3 of the OC with my cleric and was just interested in some info on the next 2 classes i plan to play in some custom modules
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kail Pendragon]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

Using a shield loses the monk all the special monk abilities so not a lot of point to it I'm afraid.

The advantage of kamas is more attacks per round if you dual wield, kamas can be flame weaponed or darkfired,

Not to mention keened and GMWed etc. Also, Kamas get enhancement bonus while gloves get an AB one (although they often have extr adamage on top of that). Kama usually comes out on top unless the module builder carefully takes in account all factors.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

.... Kama usually comes out on top unless the module builder carefully takes in account all factors.

This is very true. +6 ish may be the crossover point, but only in an ideal world.

And the number of modules in which you can upgrade anything except monk gloves can be very frustrating! Yes, HoTU, I'm looking at you. You started that fashion.... you anti-monk module, you

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               I have played around nwn a fair amount.  IF you use unarmed, you loose 2 slots (wpn and shield), which means you actually GIMP your character by doing this.  If we look at it simply from a damage perspective, like it appears above, then it could be close.  However, loosing 2 slots for bonii, makes zero sense to me.  That said, I did play for a long time on a pw where we were able to craft our own gear by collecting tokens from level quests and such.  On this server (which had access to PRC), I took a VERY serious look at an unarmed character that ended with 50 str (we had access to Great strength 10 via one base class in PRC), AND the insane monk damage.  Shield AC, while lost by kama as well, can be a huge hurdle to overcome (need HIGH wis and dex), but dex on a monk leads to the woodpecker syndrome (little damage per hit).  In my opinion, you would need some super amazing gloves to give up 2 slots and all the other stuff, and the sad thing is, if you were to find mitts this good, the server would also have gear as good for the 2 empty slots, so you are still loosing!  



You also have to keep in mind that the unarmed fists count ONLY as +3 (assume 16 monk lvls) UNLESS you have 21 wisdom AND invest in 2 epic feats!  THis means that an DR 4+ will negate the damage.  



I never liked the monk (though I am a martial artist in real life).  It just doesnt work right, and those that claim it does... i guess there is no help for them  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Hmm... surprised you never tried a monk/cleric combo, avado.  Ki strike will bypass DR to +3 and then a little divine favor can go a long way up to +5.  If you need any higher than that, it's likely a high-magic server in which case those +10 gloves drop all over the place or are vended.  The inherently high Wis of a cleric is a natural for a brawler monk.  The Wis AC cannot be stripped like Dex can.

An unarmed monk is all about speed and stunning.  A high level monk gets a "natural" SR over 40 and a stunning DC against fort in the 30-40 neighborhood depending on how many monk levels are taken.  That combined with one of the highest base damage weapons (1d20) is worth considering.  Bludgeoning is seldom nerfed on most servers I've played and offsets the typical undead resistance to slashing/piercing.

Never liked dexers myself.  Like you said, just woodpeckers without feathers.

Yep. Cleric/monk works just fine for me. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

avado wrote...

You also have to keep in mind that the unarmed fists count ONLY as +3 (assume 16 monk lvls) UNLESS you have 21 wisdom AND invest in 2 epic feats!  THis means that an DR 4+ will negate the damage.

True only if monk character has no offensive gloves which means lost of damage so why he would do that?

Also on many roleplay servers kamas are often either removed totally or is not possible to dual-wield them, funny is that unarmed cleric monks are mostly one of best builds there '>. I personally like rather servers where unarmed got advantages like uber gloves or special items like flags (torch baseitem, for example CEP 1 or 2 allows this) that can be wear in shield slot with retain monk abilities.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               http://nwn.bioware.c...247658&gid=8061

http://nwn.bioware.c...246702&gid=8061

I have "heard" of cleric/monk.  Have had a bit of experience with them aswell (as the comments will attest to on these builds, which are Finn's, not mine). 

I think, having wrote then cut back and then started over again, that what I was meaning ended up on the cutting room floor, so to speak. 

If you rely on unarmed, that leaves you with 2 free slots (wpn and shield or offhand).  A cleric/monk would GREATLY benefit from kama over mitts cuz you would get GMW (+5) AND Div power AND div favor AND etc...  All on top of the stupid 10 APR nonsense.  The other nice thing about c/m would be that with Div Power, you would now have fighter ab = to cleric lvl.  SO, some good there.  Also, if you went high wisdom, then you would have a ton of spells AND the nice monk ac bonus.  However, the high wisdom increases the Spell DC so now melee becomes close to a waste of time, as a cleric can mass kill (via herding) most areas alone with out ever drawing a weapon in about as much time as a necro sorc/wiz.  I have done it.  So, with High wisdom cleric, monk moves to the superfluous 2-6 class lvls for skill dumps and cheesey free feats.    btw, this goes for low and mid magic worlds.

In a high magic world, now you got to consider weapon/shield options (what you hold in your hands).  I used to play on the mountain and we had the freedom to design our gear as we saw fit AS LONG AS we earned tokens from questing.  Giving up your weapon and shield was not only stupid, but ridiculous!  LOL    Trust me!  I designed a fister on that server (we used PRC rules too) that had STUPID strength (we could get Great str 10 with the prc base class in epic).  We had the monk unarmed damage progression.   And if I remember correctly, I used bard/rdd too, which gave me a base str of (20+10+10+8= 48) and with custom gear, +12 was easy we had 60 strength (and dev crit too).  Yet, for some silly reason (not really silly at all), the guy wasnt that good! (if you are wondering, you CANNOT get even close to the stats on vanilla).  Why wasnt he good?  Cuz on a server like that, you loose on the items!  And that is the rub!

On low/mid magic worlds, the cleric overpowers the monk so much, that the monk becomes cheese levels.  On high magic worlds, monk is again, reserved to a few token levels.  There is NO good argument to go cleric/monk with monk >6 for ANY server (barring a pw with an item that is GODDLY with requirement of monk 7 or something stupid).  And even 6 is wasteful, as you now dilute the powerful cleric class. 

And, while 10 apr sounds great.  You really need the DAMAGE, which means HIGH str and high cleric lvls (for spells), which means the monk is again, cheese.  LOL 

btw, I LOVED Finn's build on paper, as it was unique.  However, that build is where I got the woodpecker idea, as, without cleric lvls early, damage output sucks.  I never got that guy past lv 11  . 

SO this was fun!  To sum up, IF you go monk, DONT take cleric, as you will be wasting your time because monk will only make the cleric weaker (vs cleric/monk2, which i only am NOT saying monk1 because I feel that skill dumps are necessary in playing). 

Lets get the topic back on track by ignoring cleric/monk!  LOL
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               You cant say your opinion and then stop the discussion on that topic. I don't agree with you. On low or mid magic servers monk is very good class for cleric. It gives cleric with 18 or 20 wisdom up to +10-11 AC from wisdom +1AC/5monk levels which is uber. Also speed is great factor allowing fast movement without need for haste which isnt on most of these servers available. There are two good builds with cleric/monk. One with fighter/CoT to get 4 attacks without need for divine power, more feats thus better AC because of dex/wis and 1 up six monk levels at the end to get tumble/speed/AC/and IKD for free. Or there is possibility to take Epic Dodge which means either shadowdancer or rogue class. Especially this combination is very uber on these kind of servers at least on those I have played (but I must admit those were not many). Godly AC, with ED and plenty of healing. But not wisdom but dex based because of AB. 18 or 20 wisdom is enough to get more AC than with shield, cleric 20 rogue 10 monk 10 combo with 20 base wisdom gets up to 12 ac from monk while with tower shield +5 it would be only 8 AC not to mention that halfling which is good race for this build gives another 1ac and better dex. Cleric then can buff strenght to 18 with one spell.

I also remember how cleric/monk builds owned Bastions of War with dualwielding maces which were only one small weapon with divine damage (kamas were banned there). These builds were real pain in ass because if they ever loses, they immediately run away and get back fully buffed and healed again. At this moment with new changes, its str based two handed weapon cleric/monk builds who owns there. The speed is uber for pvp.

For high magic enviroment, cleric monks can still be very good. Depends on equipment, if there are better robes than armor and how good can be kamas and shields. But yes mostly it doesn't pay off because tower shield +7 and more gives you exactly the same ac as monk would give.

Using gloves and go unarmed is option realy only if there are uber gloves or if there are not kamas.

But yes cleric/PM combo owns all servers without exception. But not everyone wants to play this (stupid) build.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 09 janvier 2011 - 03:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I also remember how cleric/monk builds owned Bastions of War with dualwielding maces

That takes me back. I had one of those on BoW in 2006.

And yes monk speed is heavily used (and abused) in PvP.