Because I went on for a bit without checking how much I had written, here's the
Short reply: Folks, all I am saying is that perhaps the answers in the thread may not really address the question the OP actually asked. If someone asks "I am a college student heading to Taco Bell. What would be tasty for lunch?" and the replies are all in the line of "Have a cup of bean curd, a raw bell pepper, and a half a grapefruit. You will be winning marathons at age 85.", then I think it's fair to wonder if they've really answered the right question. ;-)
And, here's the less pithy
Long reply:Kail Pendragon wrote...
The OP might very well choose to play the same character in downloaded modules built to be played after HotU so suggesting a lvl 40 build ain't necessarily a bad choice. There are plenty of lvl 40 builds which achieve the result of overall playability and in fact many charcater builders make playability one of their main concerns.
I didn't say anything to disagree with that. Obviously, there are level 40 builds that are great fun at level 5, level 10, and level 20. But, some aren't really intended to be very fun or effective at those levels and here we have the OP specifically saying that he wants the character to take through SoU and HotU. Of course, he may want to use the character after that, but that's not something we know.
avado wrote...
MrZork wrote...
That's one of the problems with level-40-focused build suggestions, especially in cases, like this one, where the OP has stated that s/he will actually be playing the character in a campaign and we know the campaign doesn't get the PCs to level 40, as is the case with SoU + HotU. And, even for those campaigns that bring a character to level 40 at or near the end, plenty of level 40 recipes aren't the most fun to actually play before the tail end of the module when you hit that level, in part because you wait until the end to grab a class level in which you can dump skill points or pick up some cool feat. This is particularly painful at some of the lower levels, where spending those skill points each level can really add to the fun and survivability of the character. It's kind of like telling a child to wait until he's 17 before doing anything athletic and to save all of his skill points as a teenager so that he take a level of "jock" and dump into the "throw ball" skill right before reaching maturity. ;-)
I have spent a considerable amount of time in the Epic Character builders guild over the years and this statement confuses me. While I think I understand where you are coming from, there is a significant difference between a "born at 40" build and a playable from 1 up build. The truly great builds are ones where you enjoy the experience all the way through, and there are LOTS of those. That these same builds END at lv 40 does not mean they focus on lv 40 however. As a builder, it would be incomplete to finish a build at lv 23, for example.
Epic builds are great and I absolutely agree that there are epic builds that are fun earlier on. I have no idea why anyone is presuming I think otherwise. But, getting back to this thread, did the OP ever ask for a world-beater at level 40? My concern is whether the level 40 focus is really helping the OP
in terms of what he has actually asked about.
In this instance, we have a couple potentially cool builds discussed, but you can see that the OP would go all the way through SoU with a basic sorcerer buffed with a very nice save bump (and some added weapon/armor proficiencies) from the one level of paladin. There is also a suggested variation where two levels of rogue are taken near level 40 (and, FWIW, I love rogues for the nice skill dumps), but the OP will never see his character take that level of rogue in the SoU-HotU arc he plans to play. In addition, the OP actually
started out by mentioning that he isn't so excited about mixing fighter classes with his sorcerer. So, naturally, we ignore that and most of the suggestions include adding a level of paladin! And, of course I understand that there is a very nice synergy between the two classes because they both benefit from high charisma. But, why not think about the question the OP actually appears to be asking, instead of giving the standard recommendation? Or, at least provide some discussion on why there isn't a good non-fighter mix for sorcerers, if that's the contention. Keeping in mind, of course, that he has stated he is not after the "best", which sounds to me like a player who knows there is no need for a perfect power build to complete SoU or HotU and he is thinking more in terms of fun and variety than in terms of pulverizing mountains.
Let me be clear: I am not generally
against the builds suggested. Frankly, I can very sincerely defer to others' expertise in builds in general and to sorcerer builds in particular (since I have never played one, in no small part because of the more limited skill points compared to wizards). All I am saying is that it would be nice if, taking into account the OP's posts, the suggested builds had more prominent features that would make a difference (more varied game play, more fun, more effective, etc.) before the end of SoU and before the end of HotU, where we know the OP's character will be played.
Meanwhile, IMO, it would be fine to suggest a build that ends at level 23 if someone was playing that character through a mod that ends at level 20. Not that there is anything wrong with rounding out a build to level 40, but the idea that the build isn't done before level 40 depends on the purpose of the build. Lots of players like low-level, pre-epic, or mid-epic play and may not plan to take a particular character beyond that. So, designing a build that makes certain trade-offs in order to have a great level 40 character may well be sacrificing some of the fun available at lower levels. If someone is asking about a fun build just for the OC, a perfectly good suggestion might be one that details up to level 20, with a note that it may be gimped at later levels or in hard campaigns.
BTW, I am not saying that the OP doesn't want to take this character past level 26-28. That's quite likely, of course. But, what
he has told us is that he's going through SoU and HotU, not that he's going through those modules en route to Sands of Fate and then on to a post 40 PW or whatever.
Also, you dont need an EPIC character for the OC, SOU, nor HOTU, and, in my very humble opinion, most of the epic builds shouldnt be playd in those. [...]
Bingo! I agree completely that none of the three BW campaigns requires anything like an optimal build. I'd wager that one could take a wizard / sorcerer / harper scout into the OP and still make it through. SoU and HotU are a bit more challenging, but I played them with a non-recipe wizard / rogue and still felt pretty overpowered by the end.
And, that's basically why I am trying to point out that
maybe the OP isn't looking for an epic build. He never asked for one and he hasn't said anything to indicate that's what he wants. I'm not trying to insult anyone's builds here, I am just wondering if they are really what the OP has asked for.
[BTW, I am using "epic build" referring to a build whose primary goal is generally play optimization for power, fun, etc. at level 40, not simply a level 21+ character.]
