Rogue/Fighter build?

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Alright, I've been playing NWN since it came out, and own many of the premium modules including those in the platinum edition and Kingmaker expansion. I have never played a rogue in NWN however, and decided to about a week ago. My first attempt annoyed me, so I did some thinking and was debating a rogue/fighter combo, at least to 20. I figure I pick up toughness at generation of the rogue, add one fighter level the first time I level and pick up TWF, then level again as a rogue (R2/F1) and grab ambidexterity. I only have three levels in, but I have toughness, TWF, and ambidexterity. After that I can get things like weapon finesse, dodge, slippery mind, and more. I was considering a total build of 16 rogue levels to four fighter levels. That can bump my "discipline" up to 15-20, which is a benefit since I noticed my first rogue teneded to get knocked down a lot. When I go above 20 I'll pick up something else, perhaps shadow dancer. As for my stats...

10 STR
16 DEX
12 CON
16 INT
10 WIS
12 CHA

That's starting, obviously. I also chose elf for my race due to the bonuses that help a rogue. As for what I'll pick up at what levels...

1R - Toughness
1F - TWF
2R - Ambidexterity
4R - Weapon Finesse
2F - ITWF if available, or Alertness

After that I am up in the air. I figure I'll grab dodge and mobility, slippery mind, and one of the other rogue epic feats, improved evasion. Is it worth multiclassing as a fighter though? I get a lot of extra feats this way, and unless I am mistaken, I can get in a few extra attacks thanks to the fighter just by reaching level 4. What are your opinions though?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Personally, I favor a halfling kukri-wielding rgr/rog/ftr TWF dexer and pick up all the WS I could and as many FEs as possible to help with the pitiful typical damage inherent in dex builds. The rgr feats will take care of the TWF aspect and boost the damage significantly.  You'll even get a critter to help out in the early going should u need a meat shield. I never liked depending on sneaks with all the sneak immunes out in the NWN world.  I like halfling since with finesse Str is fairly worthless except for the occasional mighty property on some weapons and would rather not nerf Con (Elf).  To be an effective dexer you may need to forego Cleave else spread yourself very thin. (Str13-Dex18-Con14-Wis10-Int12-Cha8 works, if you need it though.) Besides, the hin is a better stealther in case you decide to go the shadow dancer route.

Dual daggers are also a good option if you don't want to spend a feat for exotic.  I like DW-ing identical weapons because it saves focus feats.

I'd definitely drop the Int (with all the rog levels SPs won't be an issue), 13 max if you have high enough AB to warrant the Expertise penalty (if you go that route, of course). And the Cha will provide absolutely nothing for this build.  Even with UMD dumps all I do is postpone the dump one level later 8 instead of 7, 13 instead of 12, etc. with Cha at 8.  So that means you should be able to start out Dex 18 at least.  Bump starting Con up as high as possible and max discipline with all levels into dex.  KD & IKD are handy as well.  The total feats will determine how many ftr levels will be needed since that class is the feat master.

Place Epic Dodge high on your priority list.  You'll need Imp Evasion & Defensive roll for that beside the dex & tumble prereqs but it IS worth it IMO.

As far as split goes, I'd use 4Rog and the rest split how you like pre-epic.  After that, it's fairly flexible and you can pop in more ftr for more feats (like EWS, for instance). Rog is favored for halfling so you can really use any split you like.  Elf's favored wizard will keep smacking you with XP penalty if you care about things like that trying to balance 3 non-prestige classes.

My two centavos for what it's worth...

Edit: Oh, I forgot... to get 4APR all you need is 16BAB pre-epic.  It has nothing to do with how many ftr levels, well... not directly anyway.  That 4APR is for s/s combo, DW is higher.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Well I guess I should also have stated that I got a few friends to go buy diamond, and I want the rogue to prived DPS, not setup for solo play. I will be playing him primarily with one to two friends at a minimum, and sometimes more. I'll have healing going on, so I am not too frightened by a slightly lower defense in favor of heavy damage. Witht hat said, would you still offer the same advice, or try something else? I think what I will do is start the character in the prelude, grant myself 20 levels, set him up your way, and export him for testing, then do the same under my own intuition and see how both play and work by myself. This way I can get an idea of which route to take when we start playing next week for real, and I have to earn those levels!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...
Well I guess I should also have stated that I got a few friends to go buy diamond, and I want the rogue to prived DPS, not setup for solo play. I will be playing him primarily with one to two friends at a minimum, and sometimes more. I'll have healing going on, so I am not too frightened by a slightly lower defense in favor of heavy damage. Witht hat said, would you still offer the same advice, or try something else? I think what I will do is start the character in the prelude, grant myself 20 levels, set him up your way, and export him for testing, then do the same under my own intuition and see how both play and work by myself. This way I can get an idea of which route to take when we start playing next week for real, and I have to earn those levels!

I apologize for being acronym blind, but what is "prived DPS"?

Is this for the OC or are you just using it to randomly pre-level a PC?

My advice is based on your desire to play what appears to be a skillful rogue with decent combat effectiveness.  You can easily morph this into a power build using the rog/rgr/ftr suggested.  If you would rather maintain the elf race, it's your choice but just because elf gets a dex bias does not necessarily mean it is a good race for rogue.  I still assert that halfling is better because of the race feats, as is human for the favoring and extra feat & SPs.

Taking 4 rogue levels pre-epic makes it easier to reach the highest BAB (19).  Of course, you could take 8 just fine with still a decent 18BAB but I would get as many fighter type classes (ftr and/or rgr) in pre-epic to make things easier (more HPs, more feats, etc...).  Your rogue skills will increase in 5-level steps rather than gradually, but this should not matter that much in-game.

However, if you want SD early (if you go THAT route instead) you may need the 8 rogue levels to amass the prereqs quickly. I don't use SD much and have never powered it so you'd know better than me the value of more than a single SD HiPS dump.

The only real adjustment that may have some merit is to start with 14Wis to get Level 4 spells, if you like the caster aspects of ranger.  I've found that if there are adequate scrolls in the environment, UMD is a reliable alternative and dwarfs the casting ability of ranger.

If you enjoy testing and pre-generating builds, a nifty module is available via the Vault here.

Edit: Incidentally, I typically take 10 levels of ranger (total) and can get by with Wis12 in that case, to get +3 FEs and all the TWF feats.  However should you want a full casting repertoire and/or better FEs bonus, you can add more.  Your split with ftr and rog will determine what makes the most sense.  You are better off following your own intuition with building.  It's more fun and satisfying learning by trial-and-error than simply copying a documented build, IMHO.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Perramas]

               If you want to do a lot of damage you might want to consider a strength based build. There are some nice half orc rogue/fighter types that are nasty. You can search for them here home.comcast.net/~worldofgreyhawk/buildsearch/

For my dex type two weapon fighter I use a build that has an 8 rogue, 8 fighter 4 shadowdancer level splt pre epic. The level 40 build  is Rogue 25/Fighter 10/Shadowdancer 5. I used halfling for the high dex, bonus to rogue skills and the favored class of rogue for no xp penalty in the build. You will have plenty of skill points to play around and hide in plain sight at level eight is nice. The will save is a little low and you wont have a lot of hit points.

STR 12
DEX 18(30)
CON 14
WIS 10
INT 14
CHA 08

1: Ro 1 Dodge
2: F 1 Weapon Finesse
3: F 2 Mobility, Weapon Focus
4: Ro 2 DEX(DEX19)
5: F 3
6: F 4 Two-weapon fighting, Ambidexterity
7: Ro 3
8: SD 1 DEX(DEX20)
9: F 5 Blind Fight
10: F 6 Knockdown
11: F 7
12: F 8  DEX(21), Weapon Spec ,Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Ro 4  
14: Ro 5
15: Ro 6 Improved Critical
16: Ro 7 DEX(22)
17: SD 2
18: SD 3 Toughness
19: SD 4
20: Ro 8 DEX(23)
21: SD 5 Great Dex I(24)
22: Ro 9
23: Ro 10 Improved Evasion
24: F 9 DEX(25), Epic Weapon Focus
25: F 10 Epic Weapon Spec
26: Ro 11
27: Ro 12 Epic Dodge
28: Ro 13 DEX(26), Slippery Mind
29: Ro 14
30: Ro 15 Great Dexterity II, (27)
31: Ro 16  Improved Sneak Attack I
32: Ro 17 DEX(28)
33: Ro 18 Epic Prowess
34: Ro 19  Improved Sneak Attack II
35: Ro 20
36: Ro 21 DEX(29), Armor Skin
37: Ro 22
38: Ro 23
39: Ro 24 Improved Sneak Attack III, Improved Sneak Attack IV
40: Ro 25 DEX(30)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Perramas, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eurypterid]

               Rogue is actually (IMO) the class best suited to Elves. Too bad their favored class is Wizard.



A note on your proposed build of FTR/Rogue: you'll get an XP penalty if you don't keep the Rogue and FTR levels even or not more than 1 level apart. I personally find an Elf Rogue/FTR is a blast to play and have a build that I've used in several modules: This One. You can easily fiddle the feats about and go with SD instead of HS. I've found this one very effective and versatile.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               It's about time a rouge specialist appeared here!

Elf, eh?  Well, halflings and elves both have pointy ears, so why the the bias against the small folk? It must be some blood cult thing going on there, I bet. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...

Well I guess I should also have stated that I got a few friends to go buy diamond, and I want the rogue to prived DPS, not setup for solo play. I will be playing him primarily with one to two friends at a minimum, and sometimes more. I'll have healing going on, so I am not too frightened by a slightly lower defense in favor of heavy damage. Witht hat said, would you still offer the same advice, or try something else? I think what I will do is start the character in the prelude, grant myself 20 levels, set him up your way, and export him for testing, then do the same under my own intuition and see how both play and work by myself. This way I can get an idea of which route to take when we start playing next week for real, and I have to earn those levels!

dexers are like woodpeckers.  High ab, high ac, but NO damage output, which goes against the DPS requirement you have given yourself.  NWN is turn based so you need to do as much damage per hit that you can.  This means to me, high AB and high damage, which is a str build, unfortunately.

If you are set on rogue, rogue/bard1/rdd10 would be a strong build, though you wouldnt have the armor.  I would also go halfling with this idea and take a scrimmy (which is a two hander, iirc, for halflings). 

It seems that you are set on your idea though, so i fear much of this is a waste.  Good luck with your build
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               I'm not against trying these things, but traditionally I have always heard and used dex (agi in some games) for rogue builds that top the charts. Don't get me started on my undead rogue in WoW, he'll nail you before you know what happened! I just find it odd that D&D would require strength for damage output on a rogue. I am now debating a build with str, dex, and int favored. I like the high int so I can use more of my rogue skills. For example, 16 in my build allows me to start with 44 points, and at each level I gain 11 more. I can use most of my skills that way instead of focusing on one or two.

That brings me to another question. For things like disable trap, spot, listen, and search, how high should they go? Some people I have seen said that you should stop between 13 and 16 points. If so, that would give me extra points for other things. If I need to jack them all the way up though, I can do that. I would like to know my skill caps and why. For example, if lockpicking at skill 15 picks every lock possible, tell me so I don't go to 20, which would waste 5 points I could use in other things.

Finally, I meant "provide", not "prived". I was distracted by my girl while typing, my bad.

*EDIT*

I am toying around right now, but how about something like this?

14 STR
16 DEX
10 CON
10 WIS
16 INT
10 CHA

My main concern there is persuasion. I use that around town to get things, such as the key to the back room in the weapons shop!

*EDIT*

Also, why am I worried about strength? I use weapon finesse. That means I use dexterity for my attack rolls. With a dex of 18 and a str of 10, won't I be better off ignoring strength?

*EDIT*

Alright, I would like an explanation as to why I need strength at all. My AB is based off of dex as soon as I take weapon finesse, so long as I wield light weapons, which I do. This is why I left my strength at 10 initially. It isn't needed, unless I want to carry a bunch of goods.

As per the link below, AB is based off of dexterity once I get weapon finesse. It is in the sixth block of text, and I quoted it here.

Attributes also affect AB. Typically strength will increase melee AB and dexterity will increase ranged AB, though the feats weapon finesse and zen archery change these to dexterity and wisdom
respectively. The relevant attribute can be increased at character
creation up to a +4 bonus, by race up to +1, through level bonuses
(maximum of + 10 total), magic can add a +6 bonus, and some feats and
abilities can also increase attributes. note that it is only possible to
acquire 7 'great strength' feats.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_bonus_advice

Again, why do I need strength for AB after I hit level two or three?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zarhan Fastfire, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_qaerinju]

               

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...

Again, why do I need strength for AB after I hit level two or three?

You don't. You can safely ignore anybody who says dexers don't do damage. As you'll be playing in a group you'll be flanking a lot and therefore doing plenty of damage (unless the enemy is sneak immune obviously).
Is this for the OC? If so, you're way over-analysing it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               I learned a lot about how to fight as a rogue by playing an assassin, prestige class (evil?). As qaerinju was saying, flanking is crucial, stealth and running, all this kind of ignominious behaviours is rogue friendly...
That's why I play a wizard/rogue now most of the time: Hide, strike, run...
Fun being a coward.
I'm so fed up being an everyday hero in real life...                  
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Alright, so I was on the right track with leaving my strength at 10 to begin with. I thought I had a decent understanding of rogues (I study prior to playing a new class) and couldn't understand how I'd ever need strength since I get weapon finesse at level 2 and am fine after that with either a 16 or 18 starting dexterity. Of course if I make it to 40, I may have well over 20dex!



I guess my final question goes to my skills. How high should they go before it becomes pointless raising them? Obviously I want hide and move silently maxed, but what about spot, listen, search, set trap, disable trap, heal, and others? What about discipline, which I pick up on my fighter side?



Oh and how does the multiclassing penalty affect me? I really want a 16/4 or 13/7 split, rogue favored.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_avado]

               

qaerinju wrote...

Zarhan Fastfire wrote...

Again, why do I need strength for AB after I hit level two or three?

You don't. You can safely ignore anybody who says dexers don't do damage. As you'll be playing in a group you'll be flanking a lot and therefore doing plenty of damage (unless the enemy is sneak immune obviously).
Is this for the OC? If so, you're way over-analysing it.

nwn is a simple game.  LIke i said in my post, increasing Dex WILL (with finesse, which is assumed feat if you are building a dexer) increase AB and AC.  It will not increase the damage you do.  That's the way nwn works. 

Now, what you said you wanted was DPS (damage per second?).  For that, you need to make every contact hit count.  In my experience, relying on a one trick pony, which is essentially what back stabbing is, you will run into trouble.  The first group of undead or constructs, and you will want to use the dagger on yourself, it can be that tedious.   What i said above, high strength means that every time you hit you are doing more damage, which kills the target faster (which is DPS, no?).

All that said, dexers are VERY powerful when you have environments with junk on the weapons (which increase the damage per hit).   SInce you are a "tester" do up 2 builds: one with 30 str and a MUNDANE greatsword and one with 30 dex and 2 MUNDANE short swords/kuks and see for yourself.  If you are serious, also do a 30str scrimmy/shield too.  It is important to do this NO BUFFS (in Epic Character GUild we always compared mundane gear as buffed gear can be misleading). 

Again, IF you are going to rely on back stabbing, you need a way to ensure you back stab more often.  THat means you need kd/ikd (which, if my memory serves, is a strength based feat) OR to go stealth and attack from the shadows (HIPS from 1SD level).  Either will work just fine.  I was mistaken about the dps thing.  My apologies for the confusion.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eurypterid]

               No, KD isn't STR-based. It's based on the attacker's AB (whether that comes from STR or DEX doesn't matter). A DEXer can KD a mob just as easily as a STR build. The Discipline check to avid the KD is modified by the defender's STR though.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zarhan Fastfire]

               Alright, so explain to me how strength "makes every hit count". That's what I don't get. If I have high AB and high dex, I would think I'd hit regularly, for high damage. If this is not the case, why not?