Concealment

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               OK, so I've been messing with numbers today, just for fun, don't ask me why.

From the NWN Grimoire v3.0

"Concealment
All persons attempting to attack the affected target have a percentage
chance of failing their combat rolls before they even attempt an attack
roll."

As this is written, I assume that this means that each attack would have an inital (Conseal%) chance to fail.  Let's say 50%

Before reading this, I had assumed that the C% would only be applied in the event that the attacker would actually score a hit.  If the first is true, then I'll have to rework my formula.

    AC+(20-(AC-AB))*C%=Conseal Adjusted AC

Anybody have any insights?

Cheers

T
               
               

               

                     Modifié par tmanfoo, 18 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Assuming a 50% concealment (0.5C) and 20 attack rolls, suppose there were 10 rolls that resulted in a hit.  With 0.5C only 5 of those would ACTUALLY hit.

Or looking at the dynamics another way... again with the 50% example, just before each attack is rolled, flip a coin (or roll a d2 if you prefer).  Only with heads can the subsequent attack roll score a hit.  If it comes up tails, for all intents and purposes the following attack roll can be skipped altogether... it's automatically a miss.

The epic conceals are the real kickers because the increments are in 10% up to 50% so I'll leave the algorithm fudging to you. 

Don't forget about blind fight either.  That will throw yet another monkey wrench into the equation with the rerolls..
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               Ahhh tyvm, I had a silly idea to make a algorithm to figure out character survivability, then use it for dynamic spawns based on desired difficulty.  Things work out somewhat differently than I’d assumed, but the bits & pieces are turning out to be fun.  So most likely I'll wind up with some massive equasion that does the same thing as the engine.  I'm sure worst case someone else will want to take a look.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               The NWN Version of concealment is GREATLY effected by AC, therefore if a creature (pc or monster) had 70-90 AC 50% concealment is rather powerful.  In fact, I almost won an entire PVP tournament because of concealment.

I watched more than one large party try to take down a boss with 80 AC and 50% concealment, frustrations quickly set in because they needed high rolls to hit the boss, and even then they had a 50% chance of missing even if they hit...

Concealment is extremely powerful, making Improved Invisibility one of the best spells ever created.  If you turn on the old D&D Rules, making them STAY invisible even while attacking (an option in scripting), it allows for constant Sneak / Death Attacks, which is even more powerful!

Improved Invisibility is truly one of the most powerful spells in the game, when a rogue uses it, when they first enter combat they get sneak attacks, making the first few rolls more deadly, thereby making any item available in your module with Improved Invisibility would be indicative to handing players a Wand of Orcas, it ensures death...

A caster in invisibility & with 50% concealment is going to be able to get off 2 spells, like Issac's Greater Missle Storm, which in turn will hit for 240 Damage a spell, making it 480 Unstoppable Damage which you don't even get a chance to react to the first one, by the time the creature reaches the PC the mage will have cast the second making it take 480 Damage before the monster gets to swing!

Uber?   I'll let you decide...

Some things need to be treated with extreme care, Concealment is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and yes that also includes invisibility as well.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 19 septembre 2010 - 02:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               I even see it as too powerful muself. When facing some foe with it, I go take a coffee and only come back when he is asleep. Quite time consuming.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Genisys wrote...
If you turn on the old D&D Rules, making them STAY invisible even
while attacking (an option in scripting), it allows for constant Sneak /
Death Attacks, which is even more powerful!

Except with this option, improved invisibility gives no concealment agains anyone who see invisibility or have true seeing. I used this in my arena, and for pvp it works quite well, but it was very controversy change and not all players like this. However you can't turn it on for normal server as monster's AI can't handle it.

jmlzemaggo wrote...

I even see it as too powerful muself.
When facing some foe with it, I go take a coffee and only come back when
he is asleep. Quite time consuming.

Yea, if the boss have 82ab like one on server I know, its better to make 0ac character that counts on ii, self healing, reduction, regeneratin, many hitpoints or/and even immunity to critical hits.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 septembre 2010 - 03:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               Yeah, I realized that part of the reason I'm figuring out the formulas, is to better spot issues ahead of time, if I get the math right, then Excel will tell me when something will be more than I'm aiming for.  50% Does seem to be too much, at least without a heavy investment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               For your formula, I think the whole its concept is wrong. Concealment works same way for any AC value.

There is my attempt to calculate ChanceToHit, so far written as NWScript script, im not a big mathematic, so pardon me '>

int numbermyattacks = number my attacks;
float baseCTH;
for(numbermyattacks;numbermyattacks > 0;numbermyattacks--)
{
int n = 20 - (opponent AC - my AB - ((number my attacks - numbermyattacks) * (im I monk using gloves or kamas ? 3 : 5));
 if(n > 19) i can always roll 1
 {
 n = 19;
 }
 else if(n < 1)//i can always roll 20
 {
 n = 1
 }
baseCTH+= (n * 5) * (opponent concealment / (do i have blind fight ? 2 : 1) /100); //in percentage
}
float finalCTH =   epic dodge calculation;

I cant however yet figure how to count final CTH, because there is yet Epic Dodge...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Concealment works like this...



1. You spot a potential target and choose to engage it.

2. You make an attack roll.

3. If the attack hits the defender checks concealment. If the concealment check is successful, the attack is avoided.



Concealment is basically like a saving throw except you are rolling d% instead of a d20, Treat the concealment % value as the DC, but you have to roll less than the value indicated. For more info check page 152 in the PHB.



I believe the algorithm that Bioware uses makes the concealment check at the same time as the attack roll, converting the concealment % value to a d20 value and adding it to the DC to hit the target.



Why you would need to redo this function is beyond me since from my POV it works just like it was intended.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               

Pstemarie wrote...
Why you would need to redo this function is beyond me since from my POV it works just like it was intended.

The reasoning is simple.  To include it in a spreadsheet in order to get an accurate projection what a given effect will do, without having to put it to a playtest.  I'm intending to adjust a lot of values, and this seems like the easiest way to prevent huge problems in the long run.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

Concealment works like this...

1. You spot a potential target and choose to engage it.
2. You make an attack roll.
3. If the attack hits the defender checks concealment. If the concealment check is successful, the attack is avoided.

Nope, not true, since there is nothing about it on wiki, I just tested this (opponent with 70 ac, me with 20 ab):

It does not matter if the attack hits or not, the concealment is rolled in each attack so it has nothing to do with AC, like I said.<><>

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

tmanfoo wrote...

OK, so I've been messing with numbers today, just for fun, don't ask me why.

From the NWN Grimoire v3.0

"Concealment
All persons attempting to attack the affected target have a percentage
chance of failing their combat rolls before they even attempt an attack
roll."

As this is written, I assume that this means that each attack would have an inital (Conseal%) chance to fail.  Let's say 50%

Before reading this, I had assumed that the C% would only be applied in the event that the attacker would actually score a hit.  If the first is true, then I'll have to rework my formula.

I'm afriad you have to rework your formula.

The engine checks in this order: concealment, parry, AC, epic dodge, (attack die roll of 1)

My testing showed that an attack die roll of 1 came after epic dodge, which is somewhat odd, but it might be exapained by epic dodge being slightly buggy, especially with AoO iirc. The other four are beyond question tho. It's easy enough to test for yourself with combatdebugging.

It even makes sense since concelament puts your image slightly to the side of where you really (read the displacemnt description) are so if the attacker is aiming at the wrong one of you he is going to miss without needing to check AC etc.

Have fun '>

(I can link to a discussion and testing of it probably when i have more time )

EDIT: Shado0ow is absolutely right in other words *grin*
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 20 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Pstemarie wrote...

Concealment works like this...

1. You spot a potential target and choose to engage it.
2. You make an attack roll.
3. If the attack hits the defender checks concealment. If the concealment check is successful, the attack is avoided.

Nope, not true, since there is nothing about it on wiki, I just tested this (opponent with 70 ac, me with 20 ab):

It does not matter if the attack hits or not, the concealment is rolled in each attack so it has nothing to do with AC, like I said.<>

Right, it has nothing to do with AC - nor did I ever imply it did. The brief outline I listed is taken from the PHB on page 152. To quote the source:

"Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a sucessful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. (To expedite play, make both rolls at the same time.) Multiple concealment conditions (such as a defender in a fog and under the effect of a blur spell) do not stack."

The procedure I outlined - converting the concealment to a d20 value and adding it to the attack DC -  was just a hypothesis on how Bioware may have implemented the mechanics. It is also the method used by my brother's PnP (which I have DM'd for in the past) to resolve concealment through one die roll rather than two (those being an attack roll and a conceal percentile roll). Obviously, as your testing has revealed, Bioware has opted to use the two roll method.

Wikis are a poor source for reliable information considering that anyone can modify them without any regard as to whether or not they actually know what they are talking about. Thus to refute a written source - upon which the Wiki is based - with information from the Wiki is a tad...strange.

Keep in mind of course that the above quoted text is taken from the 3.5 D&D Rules PHB (my 3.0 Book is on lone) and NOT from NWN. It may be that, as in many other cases, Bioware modified concealment to suit their interpretation of the game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Pstemarie wrote...

Concealment works like this...

1. You spot a potential target and choose to engage it.
2. You make an attack roll.
3. If the attack hits the defender checks concealment. If the concealment check is successful, the attack is avoided.

Nope, not true, since there is nothing about it on wiki, I just tested this (opponent with 70 ac, me with 20 ab):

It does not matter if the attack hits or not, the concealment is rolled in each attack so it has nothing to do with AC, like I said.<>

Right, it has nothing to do with AC - nor did I ever imply it did. The brief outline I listed is taken from the PHB on page 152. To quote the source:

"Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a sucessful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. ...

I imagine the bolded part is why your post unintentionally implies that AC comes before concelament. It never gets to a case of "if the attacker hits..." , concealment is resolved before AC is considered. '>

have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Well, the NWN Wiki is very very reliable and good source of informations as far as NWN concerned.

Yes everyone can edit NWN Wiki, but The Krit and others constantly checking the input informations and correcting them.

There is just a sad (The Krit's) policy that description must match bioware manual/description from last patch, and the remarks are written in the notes. This can be confusing, but otherwise, the NWN Wiki proven to be best source of informations about anything in NWN.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 20 septembre 2010 - 08:52 .