Death and Dying Penalty

[Legacy_Genisys]

               OPINION 1:

Karvon wrote...

I'm a firm believer in significant death penalties and/or permadeath, both as a player and DM.

I've played too many times with too many people who saw death as only a minor inconvenience, and failed to see little, or any, relationship between poor choices and getting smoked.

OTOH, I've played places where easy rez/respawns are simply a cover for poor/lazy design of the builder(s)/DM. I dislike that just as much, or more.

Karvon

OPINION 2

Perramas wrote...

One reason I would never play a
permadeath server. I am not creative nor am I a very good writer. I have
to spend a lot of out of game hours coming up with a character
background and developing their story. I also play to have fun and to me
losing hours of time represented by experience points, items or my
character is not even remotely fun to me.

OPINION 3

Genisys wrote..

You have those that do like permanent death, and those that don't, but I'd be willing to wager nobody likes losing a character, after they spend hours building that character, come on let's be honest, if not for yourself, do it for the community...

Making Permadeath an option would be the only solution otherwise your cater your module to a few people, the hard core lovers, and hard core is fine for some, but for many, that may not be the case..

I recently had a friend host a module of mine, which quickly drew in 12 regular players, he put it on hard core, and now, there are 0 players playing all the time..  That is my point...

QUOTE:  If you can't or won't consider your players first, you won't have any players...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Genisys, the arguement you are impling, is for everyone to fall into one type of Death penalty, Which in itself is A, not going to happen, and B, guilty of trying to make NWN just like every other Multi-player game out there, One style for all. Those games do not have Player made worlds, or 100s of choices to play, both online with others, or as a solo down load. I have to ask, why would you want for that to happen? And, If that is what you want, perhaps it is time for you to move to another game. I get that you are a voice for the Limited death pen, the PVP focused PW even, But your arguements against, Only shows a lack of actual knowledge on your part. Perm death, on every server that I have played on that had it, could only happen, if A. the Player chose for it to occure, and B, the RP took it to that point. That alone should indicate to you that that type of play style is not going to attract players to your type of game, regardless of how you argue against it, and shows to, that your not going to play on those that do have it. Such is NWN, since it first came out, to now, its declining player base.

Furthermore, Why in the world should someone make a Mod that caters to everyone, when everyone has different likes and dislikes, to me, that kind of mod will only be confusing, lacking, and probably bugged to high heaven. You can not achieve ballance, fairness and playability when you build something for both lowend and uber gear, you either need the uber to survive, or it will be so increadibly easy that players will turn away.  You can not, have no death pen for some, high death pen for others, and have a happy player base, all you will get is unfair!

Finaly, your 12 players represent less than 1% of the entire community, And I doubt you actualy followed up with all of them on why they chose to stop playing on your mod. They could have, gone back to school, deceided to try another mod, became board with the gear, found the admin staff to be pain in the necks or probably 12 different reasons altogether. maybe they are on a football team and are taking a break to play. point is, you have no idea that the mod setting of hard core, has anything at all to do with it. Just to note, hard core setting only causes player cast spells to hurt the caster and party members in the AoE, and causes the XP for kills to be raised to 1.5 times the base. It does not, change death, respawn, or on dying scripting at all. That does not mean the admins changed those scripts, that only means that Hard core setting did not.



Finaly, Yes if you can't consider your players first you won't have any, however it works both ways, Hard core permadeath servers, DO consider their players, and The players do like the perm death. Take Ravenloft Prisioners of the Mist, PW running now, it has simi, and if chosen Perm death, and is ultra hard core, and it is one of the most popular servers up now. I have never seen less than 10 on at any time, It has Item limits so low there is almost no magic, they have changed spells to be less effective, and yet, have not only maintained their popularity, but they get new players all the time. Sure not all of them stay. However I bet not one of their players thinks that they should change it to be more playstyle friendly to everyone. They actualy like that their server is hard to survive in.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Mr. Unstable here Shova...



All I'm saying is different players have different taste, and if you "can" build for both DO IT..



There is really no argument to be had there, sure I may have put it in a very round about way...



But then again, I suppose I don't need to justify myself, either you understand the need or you don't.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BardKesnit]

               

Darkfire_Avlis wrote...

http://wiki.avlis.org/Death_and_Dying

Body? Yes – when a character dies in Avlis, his soul goes to the death plane with none of his possessions except for his gold, and certain special items. All of his items are left behind on a corpse that appears on the spot where he died. This is perhaps the biggest hindrance of death, because if he died in a dangerous place it might be very difficult for him to return to his corpse and reclaim his items. Also, while he is on the death plane or is returning to his corpse that corpse can be seen and examined by other characters – they can even take items from his corpse. Indeed, a character may return to his corpse to find some or even all of his items looted.

Alternatively, a character can be returned to life via the Raise Dead spell. This spell has the advantage of returning the character to the spot where he died, but he will not gain the XP he lost upon dying. Resurrection also has the same benefit, but players brought back with resurrection will regain their lost XP from dying.

Sounds like perma-death with another name, unless you are lucky enough to be playing with people who care enough to Res you (and have the ability to Res you). Die in a dangerous place? You can't get to your stuff to get it back. Die in a not so dangerous place? Chances are, your stuff is gone when you get there.

And if you are higher level, you can't really start over (even once you are res-ed) since you don't have money to buy new gear, and fighting monsters you can beat naked will give so little gold that it will take forever to get enough to purchase level-appropiate stuff.

I grant, maybe there is more to it than is stated here that would make it less of a perma-death
               
               

               

                     Modifié par BardKesnit, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               I am a big time supporter of perma-death.  I do not like the idea of clicking a button and respawning somewhere.  In my opinion this completely cheapens the effect and the idea of dying is supposed to have. 

I am also very much disgusted with whoever came up with the idea of losing eXPerience for dying.  That is the worst idea in my opinion.  If you are dead and making your way to a fugue plane, respawning in another area, or some other effect, would you not learn from the experience of your death?  Even if all you learned was that messing with an Epic Demon Lord solo results in your head rolling underneath the nearby willow tree . . you should gain experience. 
 
However, being a PW server owner I can say from eXPerience that implementing what I want is rarely a good thing.   The players of Eternal Destiny would surely revolt if Perma-Death were implemented or harsh death penalties were added.  I'd love to adventure in my own world under such conditions since I feel it would truely challenge me, but I've chosen the wiser road and have allowed my players to have their cake and allow me the chance to have a bite out of their hides every so often.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Sharona Curves, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               

Sharona Curves wrote...

I am a big time supporter of perma-death.  I do not like the idea of clicking a button and respawning somewhere.  In my opinion this completely cheapens the effect and the idea of dying is supposed to have. 

I am also very much disgusted with whoever came up with the idea of losing eXPerience for dying.  That is the worst idea in my opinion.  If you are dead and making your way to a fugue plane, respawning in another area, or some other effect, would you not learn from the experience of your death?  Even if all you learned was that messing with an Epic Demon Lord solo results in your head rolling underneath the nearby willow tree . . you should gain experience. 
 
However, being a PW server owner I can say from eXPerience that implementing what I want is rarely a good thing.   The players of Eternal Destiny would surely revolt if Perma-Death were implemented or harsh death penalties were added.  I'd love to adventure in my own world under such conditions since I feel it would truely challenge me, but I've chosen the wiser road and have allowed my players to have their cake and allow me the chance to have a bite out of their hides every so often.

Holy s2$t!  2 "owners" that are open to having people come and look at and enjoy their worlds WITHOUT all of their own "restrictions" keeping people away!  LOL  Good for you!

I never ever understood why someone would go through all the hard work to design and build a persistant world (they seem much more involved than a mod, though i am no mod expert), to ignore the audience that is looking to play somewhere.  I played a server one time that was enjoyable.  Played to lv 40, mostly on my own (solo) because of the times i played at, there werent many people on.  Only to find that the areas made for lv 40 took a HUGE jump in difficulty.  So, off i went to another world, never to return.  My very first server i played had a core group of about 10 of us.  It was well done, and, to this day, had a crafting system that was unbelievable.  Many i night i played with the owner of that server and he never got it.  He had this silly rule that you had to be lv 16 OR you had to get through this 9 lvl dungeon to get a token which allowed you to go to another part of the server.  I watched MANY players come and go because of it.  a year later, he couldnt keep it running and it went POOF.  '> 

While i never considered perma death at all, ever, i dont think it has any place in an online game, ever.  There are internet spikes, laggs, server resets (yes, i have lost xp and items too to server resets, though that was years ago) have all been culprits to deaths, NONE of which has anything to do with the player.  I remember i did look at some servers that allowed you 5 respawns or something and that was as far as i got.  Who has time to waste exploring with a new build to loose it to a lag?  not i.  If you do, good for you.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

Genisys wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

I think it's reasonable and normal to find another person's server rules annoying or without enough justification, taking into account your own beliefs.

Since when did the penalty of death become a rule?

Since the moment you logged into a server. Servers have rules.

Don't take it out of context. The point about the bit you quoted (and the bit you didn't quote), is that you can express an opinion without calling someone, or someone's decisions, "stOOpid".

I find it incredibly prejudicial to start saying decisions are "asinine" or "stOOpid" if you disagree with losing your XP or gear. To then vote 1 on NWVault is the height of egotestical arrogance. I know Genisys used to vote that way.

Your talking about 2 entirely different things here, one which applies to this thread, and one which is about something that happened on the nwvault.ign.com, um, how long ago?   If you got something against me that's fine, but that doesn't mean your right here either...

Less than 2 years ago. According to a recent post you made you were 11 in 1981 (Did I remember that correctly?) ..  2 years is not that long ago in terms of maturity if you are now about 40. TBH I used to think you were a petulant egotestical 13 year old and so never bothered to argue with you. Obviously I was wrong, and in hindsight I apologise for assuming things about you. Now I am trying to debate with you as if you are a mature person. Can we do that? Because I am afraid you will have to live with your past for as long as people remember how badly you acted. That does not mean you will never be forgiven. I personally think you are no worse now on BSN than any number of other highly opinionated posters, which is another reason I risked responding to what I view as poor arguments and pedantisism in this thread. Are you serious about being a better person or is this all PR? Are you able to debate and receive criticism these days?  

The judgement of whether I am right or not is decided individually by anyone who reads this thread/my posts and will likely only apply to them. Two perfectly reasonable people might disagree about how right or wrong I am. Few people have the detailed knowledge you & I have about your previous NWVault existence... or the circumstances of your disappearance from NWVault. And it can remain that way if you like. (If you don't remember who I am, send me a Pm and I'll prove to you exactly how nice I am being by not talking about everything I know in public.) As I said, you are acting normally, mostly, on BSN. I have no vendetta against you. I mentioned quite a few people in my post, you were but one of them. If you look back you'll see it was someone else who talked about giving a 1. You were just another example. Don't assume everything revolves around you and your opinion. I quoted a fact about the way you used to vote, that's all.

Let's get back to the point shall we?

Yet my opinion is death has to carry some penalty else there is no challenge in the fight.

The challenge isn't found in failure, the challenge is found in trying, regaurdless if you fail or succeed.

The level of challenge is not judged by someone's success or failure. Level of challenge is determined by the difficulty of the problem and the consequences of getting it wrong. When you risk losing something the challenge is greater than if life is constantly easy and nothing is at stake, no? Assuming a failure of facing the challenge is not a counter argument to my point.

(And if you don't want to party with anyhone else ever, there is no reason to be playing MP.)

Many players I've met are not very sociable, that doesn't mean they can't play in a world without being penalized for not having a party member with them, nor should Multi-Player be 100% about partying either...

??  ...OK, you need an argument to support your position or help me understand that. MP IS about playing with other people. If all someone does is solo, then why why risk the lag monster? Why not play SP?

Half your arguments concern the way you have to please all players,
which is not actually going to be possible, and yet often you're
assuming all players are like you, no?

I didn't say you have to please them, but I did say you need to consider them, if nobody like a setting (like hard core for example) it is not kissing the player's behind to turn off hardcore, though, if you like it and leave it on, but your the only person on the server and you can't understand why nobody is playing on your server, then that's not any player's fault.

Do you realise that the point I was making is your argument depends on everyone acting the same way or no? The point of my argument is that people are different and so you never will get a everyone/no-one situation. Repeating the argument to me doesn't change that. My point is your argument, although logical, has no relevance, because the situation will never arise. Someone will like it, someone will hate it, and some people will play anywhere no matter what the rules are 'cos they are playing with their friends.

I was trying to be factual, and though I may have said asinine & stOOpid about a few "ideas" they were not directed at any one person in particular, I just don't like the ideas...

As I said: Don't assume it is all about you. Someone else used the word asinine. You both appeared to be examples of a position I argue against, nothing more.

I assumed nothing, I have observed players as a Server Admin / DM & listened to countless players say things about different aspects of the game, therefore a person can come to learn what many & in some cases most players do not like and more importantly what they do like.  I definitely do not think all players are like me, nor do I think they are all the same, but I do know what many players do not like, and that helps me to understand many fellow players.

You hosted a very high magic HnS server. You also constantly made posts about how you were not getting any players. How do you think your experience of your playerbase represents the average NWNer? (if such a creature exists). I claim you are making assumptions and I think I am proving it.

If you read the Dungeons & Dragons advanced books, the quickest thing you learn what is very important about being a good DM, and that is captivating your audiences attention & HOLDING IT...  There is nothing fantastical or fun about dying or death penalties,...

I did not claim there was an intrinsic fun thing about death. Although someone else (Ben maybe?) made a very good argument about how death can be the most rewarding RP experience. Other people have also contributed ways in which death or the death plane can be used for enjoyable player experience. You view death as respawn time and a failure I think. The point of this thread is to debate what death can or could mean. Presupposing it means respawn or is fundamentally a negative experience is to miss the whole debate.

... in fact, it's best to consider the others who don't otherwise your only catering your module to a select handful of players, and that would be a mistake.

NO. It is only a mistake if your purpose in hosting a server is to please everyone or have large numbers of players. The whole point of my previous post is that it is ok to host a server that only a few people like. If they like it and you all have fun, what is the problem?

So, to answer the original poster and the remaks made by SHia, it's not the penalty that matters, nor does death matter, but if players don't like it, and you hear a lot of people complain about it, doesn't that mean something?

Sorry, but that is not answering either me or the OP. It is changing the question. The thread is called "Death and dying penalty", no?

Your argument so far has been "if you don't have players you have got something wrong in your design." (To put it philosophically, in this context you are assuming a connection between a strict death penalty and a lack of players on a server yet presenting no proof of this. 1: you assume the question and move straight onto how to solve the consequences in a circular argument. 2: The point of the thread is to debate the question. 3: The very fact that people on this thread are arguing for different types of death penalty means different people like different things therefore "lack of players=too strict death penalty" is a false assumption.

I suppopse there may be a point in carrying on this debate, maybe to prove I'm correct, or to prove your wrong, but honestly, I don't care to.   Personally, I don't care what people think about me anymore, and yes that was hard to learn.  I started focusing on my business, and now the only thing that matters is getting and KEEPING customers.

If you can apply business to NWN, you would see why players are the customers, they are ultimately who you want to please & ultimately why you would host an online game, to invite and have players. 

Like your argument goes, otherwise just play offline, or on a LAN game, no need to please anyone..

I for one love the NWN game, but it's a lot of work to build a module, so if your gonna take the time, why not make a good one players will love?  Online or Offline..

If your going to host a server, all rules aside, if the players aren't having fun, they will just leave.

If anyone thinks restrictive gameplay is fun, or enforcing rules on everyone, which aren't player friendly, then continue to adhere to your chosen decisions, and in the end, only the player count will tell the true story..

As far as my old server(s) "Underworld" / "Evermeet" / or "Axis", these were great lessons for me, it's not every day your going to run into a builder who has built 3 server modules, and then some more.  Single Player modules are a lot different from Server Modules, by far.  I have experience as a builder / dm / player, and in D&D, so why question my knowledge base?  I could be wrong, but why argue with me, it's going to be hard to persuade me to think your way, when in truth, I've learned for myself a lot about the game and players.

You're going out of your way to prove everything I say as either false, innacurate, or implying something to the likes of one or both.  Therefore, are we debating, or are you just wanting to flat out argue or show everyone I don't know anything?  Lol, I highly doubt that I know nothing, nor do I think my opinion(s) are way off base either as you go out of your way to imply. ^

Ultimately, I made a few points in my earlier post, and those are, if you build for all the different kinds of players, you will be diversified, not deworsified, which is indicative to those servers that go out of their way to create "Systems" which are neither fun nor do they really make a world more fantasty like.

You can tell when someone is building by what they "think" is correct, or when someone is building for the players, there is a significant difference, and the players can sense it very easilly.  What ultimately makes or breaks it for players is their sense that the module was designed for them, and not tailored to meet the builder's desires.  There is a fine line between building the module to your taste and building for the players.  The only question you have to ask yourself is:

Who are you building for?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               My world is PnP style. Perma-Death. You die... you're dead. Unless someone in the party cares about you enough to raise you (which happens quite often, BTW; NWN players are a pretty generous lot). Is that enough of a death penalty?



I never have a great deal of trouble finding players, but I definitely draw from the old-school RPers. Munchkins HATE my game.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               

B_Harrison wrote...

And I'd much rather play with 4 friends (who happened to be excellent roleplayers) than 24 strangers who neither grasped nor cared about any degree of art or individuality.

Oh amen to that. Times 100.

Eradrain wrote...

If the player does not have something he
wants, then he will be stuck there until his friends can perform a
DM-quest to get him out.

Seems like you'd be screwed if there's no one logged in to help you out....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               I have found repeatedly that most places do not enjoy nor
encourage individuality.  I wish they
did, but in my case, they don't.

 

IMO: I really like the idea of perm death.  I feel it should be an option.  For PvP, it should be optional, as in a
"Duel to the Death."  I think if
you want to play hardcore then great; no meta-gaming, no gold from other
characters, no handouts from non-hardcore players, etc.  Basically the server would have to be split
into ‘wants to PvP,’ ‘wants to HC,’ and ‘wants to EZ-Mode.’  Any and all of these are fine with me, and I like
to play them all.  I can even see the
desire to play combinations of all of them, perhaps more.  As it is, a NWN server really doesn’t have
the population to make a dozen different groups for these 3 categories, then
more to support alignment, race, sex, class & social affiliations. 

 

As a result, we get worlds worlds split any number of ways,
or more that I’ve not even mentioned.

 

I think the best route is to determine 1-3 ways of play
& stick with it.  You cannot make
everyone happy 100% of the time.  If people
are not happy, they will find another place to play.  If we make robust consistent worlds, then
people will always be there.  The death
& dying penalty should be appropriate to your world as you decide it should
be.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par tmanfoo, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Shia Luck wrote...
...your arguments concern the way you have to please all players, which is not actually going to be possible, and yet often you're assuming all players are like you, no?. The quoted argument is only relevent if ALL servers act the same way. The fact that people are different means this will never happen. It's ok to be different. It's ok for people to disagree, it's ok for people to be undecided and it's ok for people to change their minds.That's the purpose of debate, no?

Genisys wrote...

...why argue with me, it's going to be hard to persuade me to think your way...

You're going out of your way to prove everything I say as either false, innacurate, or implying something to the likes of one or both.  Therefore, are we debating, or are you just wanting to flat out argue or show everyone I don't know anything?

Did you even read my post? Everyone else on this thread is debating the pros and cons of death and different dying penalties. You have already stated that this question is not important to you

Genisys wrote...
So, to answer the original poster and the remaks made by SHia, it's not the penalty that matters, nor does death matter, but if players don't like it, and you hear a lot of people complain about it, doesn't that mean something?

Repeatedly spamming this thread with the same argument based on the same assumptions and which is still off-topic doesn't prove anything except your disregard for other people and their right to express their opinion.

Genisys wrote...
Ultimately, I made a few points in my earlier post, and those are, if you build for all the different kinds of players, you will be diversified, not deworsified, which is indicative to those servers that go out of their way to create "Systems" which are neither fun nor do they really make a world more fantasty like.

Please explain a death and dying system that will be liked by ALL different kinds of players. In this thread players have said they like: perma death, instant respawn, losing a level, a small xp penalty, an xp award, losing equipment and not losing equipment.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               Introducing a new respawn system.



When you die you lose all your equipment, you permadeath, you then get a brand new pc who looks just like you with all your old gear who gains 50 xp then loses a level and then clones himself to go make you a chicken wrap with hot sauce and ranch then commits Seppuku. Afterwards he is arisen again as a zombie and dances a Irish Jig.



This happens over a 15 hour period.



Just kidding and Shia, I see your point even if Guile does not.



In all honesty though this has been a great read for the most part. I agree with several posters and vehemntly disagree with some as well.



Not having a penalty cheapens death and I for one will lean towards using Axe Murderer's as well. Thank you for the link as choices seems the best way to go.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

avado wrote...

While i never considered perma death at all, ever, i dont think it has any place in an online game, ever.  There are internet spikes, laggs, server resets (yes, i have lost xp and items too to server resets, though that was years ago) have all been culprits to deaths, NONE of which has anything to do with the player.  I remember i did look at some servers that allowed you 5 respawns or something and that was as far as i got.  Who has time to waste exploring with a new build to loose it to a lag?  not i.  If you do, good for you.

Fallout Online - if you die, you will be respawned automatically after some time to place miles aways. If you die in random encounter area your equip is lost forever. If you die in city, your equip is stolen by PK that killed you. Yea, this full loot after death is the cause there are PKers on max lvl which shoot on sight killing you with one blow, if you have nothing, they are at least pleased they annoyed you or disallowed you to do something. Then there are special exploiters that using various techniques to kill you in protected city (where they get killed too by guards mostly). In that case their friends will loot you from all you have. This is soo stupid and guess reason why there are playing only Polands and Russians PKing each others...

Also I heard that full loot was in Ultima Online too, but guess only some servers, as that is similar to NWN.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Urk wrote...

I never have a great deal of trouble finding players, but I definitely draw from the old-school RPers. Munchkins HATE my game.

I dont think muchking hate your server because of death system. For us, its exactly what draggs us to play some server, the more stupid and harsh rules the better feeling you get when you own those rules, making highest level on that server or getting richest character etc. I guess you have some "stupid" (from munchkin point of view) RP/OOC rules etc. Thats what keeps us away. BTW what is your server name???
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Wensleydale]

               I like perma-death just fine, provided the module/server isn't ridiculously hard. Reloading your game 14 times in a row will get stale pretty quickly. I find respawning on the spot with no penalty whatsoever does trivialise dying. I mean, it's death we're talking about here. And death is serious business.



As far as penalties go, I can live with losing a little XP or a little gold. Taking my hard-earned magical doohickies off me? That's a bridge too far. Transporting me to some sort of Fugue Plane is all well and good, provided there's a relatively expedient means of returning to the location of my demise. Forcing me to travel 84 light years across monster-infested terrain in my underclothes will not endear me to you or your creation.



Just my two cents.