Death and Dying Penalty

[Legacy_Genisys]

               TSMDude   your ability to look at things both ways doesn't change your view, you either make the decision to do it one way or the other, THERE IS NO MIDDLE!

You cannot say... for example..

My evil side wants me to hurt people..

But my good side wants me to make friends..

If you hurt people you will have no friends...

If you want friends you have to DO something in order to have them. (e.g. you must be friendly)

I gave you that example to help you SEE that there is no 2 ways about it, you're either choosing to have friends or your pushing your friends away.. Even a stranger can be friendly to those who show them friendliness.  You can implement whatever you like on your server, after all it's your server...

Your player base directly tells you just how good your server is, or just how bad of a server admin / builder you are... though being a builder and an admin are two entirely different things, you shouldn't confuse the part that you as the admin control the builder, so don't let the builder destroy your server!

TREAT THE PLAYERS RIGHT...  That's the bottom line...

Build for the players, or go play offline I say!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

SHOVA wrote...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think you should get some XP for dying, rather than have some taken away. The reason is simple most players do learn something from their PCs death, even if it is a simple leason like don't do that! But they do learn some kind of tactics. In my builds, I like to give 14 XP for death. I also tend to make PCs drop all gear, and all gold, but allow them to try to get it back, or for someone else to pick it up. The main reason being, If a player wants to RP, then chances are they will RP a death as being a terrible experience. If they do not want to rp, then no ammount of scripting can force them to do so, and can, cause players to not want to play.

Drop all gear?   *slaps forhead*   this is what's killing nNWN...   (14 XP omg.. don't strain yourself)

Example: Players walk into a server only to get raped, they leave with a bad taste in their mouth...

Will they come back?

The falling player count continues to say:  NO THEY WON'T!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:33 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_B_Harrison]

               

SHOVA wrote...

If a player wants to RP, then chances are they will RP a death as being a terrible experience. If they do not want to rp, then no ammount of scripting can force them to do so, and can, cause players to not want to play.

Now that's a good point. But it doesn't decrease the value of cool module features, I think, so much as make their inclusion mere bonuses for entertainment purposes.  If you're fortunate enough to play with a group of good roleplayers, you really don't even need a game, but I still prefer NWN in place of a chat client or notepad.

Genisys: I do my best not to be personal, offensive, or confrontational, but even taking into account that I already read your posts with not so much a grain, but a boulder of salt, some of the things you spout repeatedly in these discussion threads is absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that the declining size of the NWN community -- in the past, what, 5 years? -- is directly attributable to the presence of player-loot death systems on some PWs? Do you feel that kind of insight really adds to a discussion?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par B_Harrison, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

B_Harrison wrote...

SHOVA wrote...

If a player wants to RP, then chances are they will RP a death as being a terrible experience. If they do not want to rp, then no ammount of scripting can force them to do so, and can, cause players to not want to play.

Now that's a good point. But it doesn't decrease the value of cool module features, I think, so much as make their inclusion mere bonuses for entertainment purposes.  If you're fortunate enough to play with a group of good roleplayers, you really don't even need a game, but I still prefer NWN in place of a chat client or notepad.

Genisys: I do my best not to be personal, offensive, or confrontational, but even taking into account that I already read your posts with not so much a grain, but a boulder of salt, some of the things you spout repeatedly in these discussion threads is absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that the declining size of the NWN community -- in the past, what, 5 years? -- is directly attributable to the presence of player-loot death systems on some PWs? Do you feel that kind of insight really adds to a discussion?

I'd dare say ben, it's not JUST the death penalties, it's the whole attitude taken toward the PC that tends to fail to meet some builder's eyes..  You can't be unfriendly man, not even to those who can't RP, nor can you inflict hell upon a player and expect them to like it...

If you inflict players with absurd things, they will get frustrated and leave, and that's the bottom line...  Furthermore, if all the servers agree that it's good to have this or that, and all the players hate it, who wins?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:52 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_B_Harrison]

               I understand that stance completely, but you seem to be assuming a great deal about all players of NWN, and then judging a builder's design decisions based on that - declaring any builder who doesn't meet your perception of the entire game's player base's sole, objective playing preference as some sort of destructive deviant.

Understand that losing a character to IC death within a roleplaying environment can be one of the most rewarding and enjoyable playing experiences for some people. Likewise, some players choose a torturously risky and hostile game world in which they have to struggle for their character to win and survive - similarly, I assume, those players find such environments highly rewarding and enjoyable. I don't think TSMDude's intention was for us all to spew contempt and accusations at anyone whose opinion differs, but rather to outline and discuss our preferences.

I can provide examples of many players who share my opinion on this, and in game occurences that demonstrate the validity of my personal view. TSMDude, an admin himself, can no doubt do the same for his personal take on it. I don't want to challenge you unfairly, but, well... where are your legions of players, captured utterly by the objectively correct design decisions you've made on your server, and fanatically dedicated to NWN as a result of your understanding of their wishes? How many are there?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par B_Harrison, 08 septembre 2010 - 09:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               I think it's reasonable and normal to find another person's server rules annoying or without enough justification, taking into account your own beliefs. I find it incredibly prejudicial to start saying decisions are "asinine" or "stOOpid" if you disagree with losing your XP or gear. To then vote 1 on NWVault is the height of egotestical arrogance. I know Genisys used to vote that way. I rather hope it was just a figure of speech from Eradrain because the alternative system of a quest to rescue your friend he(?) suggests is a great one. The gaining XP through dying suggestion by Shova has the same thought behind it I think. A quest to get back to the realm of the living means game experience and XP, no?

At The Reviewer's Guild we cannot mark a module down because we disagree with a design decision. We can comment on it, but not reduce the score, and that is because some people will like that system. If it has bugs or the design decision is not well realised in game, then we can start reducing the score.

I also really like Ben's suggestions of unconciousness, captured etc, tho it can be a lot of work for a builder and it sounds like it would work better SP more so than MP. In MP you have your friends to raise you, unless it's TPK.

...but I think any internet server has to recognise that TPK can happen from lag and perma death or permanent stat penalties feel unfair to me in that case.

Yet my opinion is death has to carry some penalty else there is no challenge in the fight.

Even if you are a player who hates RPing, having areas in a PW that are too difficult to solo and which carry a penalty for dying gives you a reason to party together. (And if you don't want to party with anyhone else ever, there is no reason to be playing MP.) Having a reason to party together, whether it is OOC, or IC RP, is a good thing.

................

Genisys wrote...

Drop all gear?   *slaps forhead*   this is what's killing nNWN... ...

Example: Players walk into a server only to get raped, they leave with a bad taste in their mouth...

Will they come back?

...NO THEY WON'T!

Two points.
1: NWN is not all about gear. I know you love your gear, not everyone cares quite so much.
2: That is not a definiton of rape.

Genisys wrote...

 Furthermore, if all the servers agree that it's good to have this or that, and all the players hate it, who wins?

Half your arguments concern the way you have to please all players, which is not actually going to be possible, and yet often you're assuming all players are like you, no?. The quoted argument is only relevent if ALL servers act the same way. The fact that people are different means this will never happen. It's ok to be different. It's ok for people to disagree, it's ok for people to be undecided and it's ok for people to change their minds. That's the purpose of debate, no?

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Everyone has a right to their opinion, even if they are wrong, of that I've never been wrong.

How you view each person's opinion will ultimately determine who you are, not just for yourself, but for others as well, for how you view yourself is important in relations to how others see you.  I observed some very interesting remarks, though I can't agree with some of them, I don't think anyone is wrong or stOOpid, I may think a concept is stOOpid, but humans by nature are not stupid, so I have learned.

As far as shooting back any rebuttals in this thing some may want to make a debate out of, I'd like to say this, I'm not interested in fighting over words or clashing my views with others, simply pointless.

I will say this though, for the sake of the NWN community we would all be well served by coming to the realization & agreement of what is important & good to the players, for what they think matters more than what one person in control thinks..

Case / Point In Hand...

WOTC / Research & Development In Charge of Magic: The Gathering..

So where is MTG now?

And, then there was NWN...

So where is NWN now?  (1/2 of what it use to be?  1/4?  1/8th?  1/10th?)

The game has how many modules?  It's not like you can't play one 40 times and not get bored..
Because some are just that damn good..

Then there are all those other modules which, with all their realism, fail to deliver the main thing..

Fun..   (hollar if you hear me)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 08 septembre 2010 - 10:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               I like the perma death idea, from my (action) point of view rather as challenge for good builders/players. However to make it real, you must really balance your monsters.

In past I wanted to apply perma death to all players (note Action server), but then other builders persuaded me, its bad idea. So I came with voluntionary perma-death. I made special death script that didnt allowed to respawn to player with "HC" in name. (However I allowed resing for them)

Also HG uses the same system, but not sure about resing.

This way those who wants will take that challenge and then they have to count with lags, etc. and normal players will still be unaffected. Also you actually don't need any support. If you want to play this way, you can in every module out there. The reason I made that support was to allow other players see who is the highest level HC character.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 08 septembre 2010 - 10:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I like the perma death idea, from my (action) point of view rather as challenge for good builders/players. However to make it real, you must really balance your monsters.

In past I wanted to apply perma death to all players (note Action server), but then other builders persuaded me, its bad idea. So I came with voluntionary perma-death. I made special death script that didnt allowed to respawn to player with "HC" in name. (However I allowed resing for them)

Also HG uses the same system, but not sure about resing.

This way those who wants will take that challenge and then they have to count with lags, etc. and normal players will still be unaffected. Also you actually don't need any support. If you want to play this way, you can in every module out there. The reason I made that support was to allow other players see who is the highest level HC character.

The best solution to a problem in my opinion, and yes I believe it's a problem, forcing bad things on a PC that is.
(From a builder's point of view, and from a player's perspective too)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

Genisys wrote...

Everyone has a right to their opinion, even if they are wrong, of that I've never been wrong.

Try:  Everyone has a right to an opinion, even if I'm wrong

Have fun '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_VPJ]

               

Genisys wrote...

The best solution to a problem in my opinion, and yes I believe it's a problem, forcing bad things on a PC that is.
(From a builder's point of view, and from a player's perspective too)

You're forgetting an even simpler solution.  Don't play mods or PWs that you don't like and stop insisting that everyone do things your way.

Much easier and much better.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Dark Defiance]

               

avado wrote...

Very admirable dude!  Most admins ive seen have a "this is my server, take it or leave it" attitude, and end up playing with themselves and 4 other "friends"!  LOL  

To me, its a Game.  I dont mind loosing gold nor xp, but stats?  Yes, in real life, if you could come back from being dead, you probably would be "weaker", but this is a GAME so im not into that.

Hey, I play with about 4 friends and that's because right now its a private server. ;-)

I agree, this is all a game and a game is supposed to be fun. If I'm not having fun why am I playing?

I don't use and can't stand perma-death. That seems to be more for the hardcore roleplayers who are used to PnP. Now you could just reroll the character with a different name and start over. Ouch, now I have to start from the beginning again. To me it's like if Super Mario only had one life. We would have all died on World 1-1 and ended up going through the all the local plumber unions in Brooklyn just to save the Princess.

I use xp/gold penalities with a twist: The new cap for gold is 100k. Players tend to be a little more cautious running into dungeons because of that. If you die, you lose the standard NWN xp, but a "grave" is left where you died. You can go back to reclaim half the gold, and all the xp. The players will then seek out help (generally) to get the grave back. I feel that helps promote parties.

Just my 2 coppers.

-DD
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

B_Harrison wrote...

TSMDude wrote...

It is why if you are deciding to HOST a world and Admin it you need to elarn that your view is not the right one.

Your Player Base idea is.

I can't speak for Valyn, but I suspect his opinion on that would be the same as mine; that a better situation would be for an admin's PW vision to attract (and keep) players who share the same vision. Perhaps some admins see themselves as simply catering to the whims of whichever players happen to remain on their servers, and I can respect that to a point, but it's certainly not how all of us design gameworlds.

And I'd much rather play with 4 friends (who happened to be excellent roleplayers) than 24 strangers who neither grasped nor cared about any degree of art or individuality.

I agree but TSM was not my vision and a world that needed help. With thier base dwindling or becoming a action server were PCs were annoyed not to be Epic in a month, the current Host asked us to help. But that of course is a different thread and story.

I love the TSM Player Base and we try and keep it true to its orginal vision but I do of course have my own side world for the 4 friends for us to play in so to speak for our own PnP....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               In single player mods I never respawn unless death and resurrection is deeply embedded in the module, offering new insights and experiences. Or when it's a Monty Haul module and I don't care about losing gold and xp but I'm eager to continue playing. Generally though I assume my PC has died - which would be the end of it all - and therefor I choose to just ignore this tragic event and reload a savegame to change the course of the story. As a sidenote, even though I usually don't use the Respawn button, I don't like it when I notice respawning just means your PCs will stand up again and continue fighting as if nothing happened and there's no penalty or death temple whatsoever. That takes the challenge out of combats and I'll start to wonder why there are combats in the mod anyway.

On PWs, I can live with reasonable xp and gold penalties. If you can regain the xp by defeating, let's say 5-10 creatures of your level, that's fine. If you have to defeat 20-50, that's a very hard punishment that might quench a player's thirst for adventures. What I'm very sceptical of are systems that punish players by stealing their time. Having to retrace a long way to get back where you died or having to wait for other players' help (unless the server is full of people who will rush to your aid in no time) are good reasons for me to leave a server and spend my time elsewhere.

I like the idea that the penalty for dying is also connected with some kind of reward or consolation, even if it's just the opportunity to see different areas, talk to different people etc. What Eradrain described could work for me if it's well done. Another idea (probably more on the Action side) would be the chance to gain something special as a recompensation, or at least win back what you lost through death - with the risk of drawing a blank or something even worse. Anyway, for me it all depends on how it's done and how much creativity was at work. Something utterly horrible for my PC could turn out something pretty cool for my playing experience. If you blend death and penalties with stories, quests, intrigueing or funny conversations, spectacular effects etc. I will even praise you for 'punishing' my PC. If it just feels like bland OOC punishment I won't. Taking away a point of CON, for example, would only be okay if there was more to it than just a degradation of my stats and a worsening of my chances to be successful. And there should be a way to regain it, something exciting that doesn't feel like a chore.

BTW, I acknowledge if respawning is embedded in a PW's setting. There should be a good IC explanation as to why it is possible and what it actually means. In the D&D universe, at least as far as CRPGs are concerned, resurrections are a much too common occurence for my taste. I don't like permadeath though. Permadeath is not for me. But treating death as unconciousness or similar approaches would get the thumbs up from this player.
'>

Where I'm coming from:
I'm hesitant to use the common labels to define my preferences. Terms like "Action" and "(Hardcore) Roleplay" are often conceived as diametrically opposed and used by one side to express their dislike of the other. I refuse to take sides because I cherish both aspects of the game when they're not overdone. But if you insist, perhaps you could say I'm a casual and curious Action player with a dislike for grinding and a strong love for unrestricted Roleplay and well thought-out settings.

Experiencing the world is more important to me than my character builds, as long as I'm able to survive and continue exploring. But I care about my characters' personality. I also like things that are frowned upon on some servers, like running through towns occasionally. And I love to roleplay should the occasion arise (actually you can always find a roleplay explanation for the supposedly OOC things you just did '> ). My interest is more in atmosphere than in stats and equipment but that doesn't mean I want powerful stuff taken away from me when I need it for surviving my expeditions deeper into the PW. I want to be able to see more of it than just the local inn...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 09 septembre 2010 - 01:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

I think it's reasonable and normal to find another person's server rules annoying or without enough justification, taking into account your own beliefs.

Since when did the penalty of death become a rule?

I find it incredibly prejudicial to start saying decisions are "asinine" or "stOOpid" if you disagree with losing your XP or gear. To then vote 1 on NWVault is the height of egotestical arrogance. I know Genisys used to vote that way.

Your talking about 2 entirely different things here, one which applies to this thread, and one which is about something that happened on the nwvault.ign.com, um, how long ago?   If you got something against me that's fine, but that doesn't mean your right here either...

Yet my opinion is death has to carry some penalty else there is no challenge in the fight.

The challenge isn't found in failure, the challenge is found in trying, regaurdless if you fail or succeed.

(And if you don't want to party with anyhone else ever, there is no reason to be playing MP.)

Many players I've met are not very sociable, that doesn't mean they can't play in a world without being penalized for not having a party member with them, nor should Multi-Player be 100% about partying either...

Half your arguments concern the way you have to please all players,
which is not actually going to be possible, and yet often you're
assuming all players are like you, no?

I didn't say you have to please them, but I did say you need to consider them, if nobody like a setting (like hard core for example) it is not kissing the player's behind to turn off hardcore, though, if you like it and leave it on, but your the only person on the server and you can't understand why nobody is playing on your server, then that's not any player's fault.

I was trying to be factual, and though I may have said asinine & stOOpid about a few "ideas" they were not directed at any one person in particular, I just don't like the ideas...

Furthermore, how do you know what is possible untill you try?

I assumed nothing, I have observed players as a Server Admin / DM & listened to countless players say things about different aspects of the game, therefore a person can come to learn what many & in some cases most players do not like and more importantly what they do like.  I definitely do not think all players are like me, nor do I think they are all the same, but I do know what many players do not like, and that helps me to understand many fellow players.

If you read the Dungeons & Dragons advanced books, the quickest thing you learn what is very important about being a good DM, and that is captivating your audiences attention & HOLDING IT...  There is nothing fantastical or fun about dying or death penalties, in fact you read that if you overchallenge the PCs you can correct that...  In fact, as a DM you have the power to do anything you want, but if you abuse that power you will HEAR the complaints, and if your hearing complaining and you turn a deaf ear to it, then what?  I'll let you deduce the answer to that one..

I like to maintain a good balance between challenging & fun, but not to allow the PCs to be overchallenged to the point that they have to chug heals left and right to stay standing...  (A mistake I made in my first module)  If ONE player likes this style of play, that's ok, but that doesn't mean all players will like that style of play, in fact, it's best to consider the others who don't otherwise your only catering your module to a select handful of players, and that would be a mistake.

So, to answer the original poster and the remaks made by SHia, it's not the penalty that matters, nor does death matter, but if players don't like it, and you hear a lot of people complain about it, doesn't that mean something?

Surely we can see the meaning of player's actions.  If a player is farming a boss & area over and over, as I've seen some do repeatedly, that doesn't mean we pull out the DM rule book and lay it across their head sideways, it means we need to do something to change WHY the player is doing this...

For you can put out the fire all you want, but if you don't stop and look at the source of the problem, you will never see the critical question WHY...  Therefore I'll leave this thread with this...

You can't beat a player and expect them to be happy about it, you simply can't, and if players aren't happy they will just leave, and that's the bottom line...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 09 septembre 2010 - 06:42 .