Do you like it rough?

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               I've often thought on the subject of balancing for soloists and players at the same time.

Would it make sense to come up with some sort of character evaluation function?  Then use it to help decide how many of what to spawn?



Just going by body count and level probably wouldn’t be enough.  I expect that a level 20 Ftr/WM/Rog build would be far tougher than a level 20 bard, so throwing the same thing at both would result in one dead bard.  Of course, we all know that mounds of dead bards are great to hide behind.



If this is indeed a useful idea, how complex should the evaluation be?  What all should it take into account?  We would probably need to assign a value via script for each thing we want to evaluate.  It might well be more work than it is worth, but the end result would be nice.  I guess I should look and see if anyone has already done this.  Hopefully this is still reasonably on topic.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               i have a question about roughness... i think it's close enough to the topic at hand.  how does a builder go about managing roughness with the vast level range in nwn (1-40 or even to i guess people are doing 100th level these days)?  (supposing you like it rough, and not just click-and-kill).   it's naturally not as as easy as PnP module geared to 8-12th level characters.

it seems to me roughness has to be a function of level, gear, strategy, build.  if say a 30th level wizard (whose only strategy is to dive bomb) with 20th level gear goes into a 40th level area and gets excessively roughed up, how does one deal with that?  spoilers?  map pins?  signs? handouts? make everything super linear, so there's no chance he could have gotten there unless he was ready for it?  add stores with necessary gear?  just let them log out in tears?

(made some edits for clarification)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 24 août 2010 - 05:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Hey Leo  '>

Nice to see you on the boards..

First off, let me say this, this post has little to do with your server, I am trying to gauge the general communities desires of game play.

Balance is a very difficult thing to obtain, if it is indeed possible...
Even the best builders struggle to obtain a balanced module..

Now as far as making your module appealing to the general public / nwn community, I suppose the above replies to this post should answer most of your questions, undoubtedly.

I think your steering in the wrong direction, gear / level / and build have little to do with how rough it is, unless of course your talking about uber gear, and levels beyond 40, then of course it's going to be difficult to make it rough for the PCs, no doubt..

If I give a monster 4d6 Magical damage, and there is no way for the player to resist it, then yes, that's pretty rough, becuase no character can resist it, but If I stack that with 3 other monsters dealing the damage, then yes, it's going to be very rough...

You have to look at the amount of damage the players are taking (per round), how often they die, and determine where you can make improvements based upon the results, this is where hopping on as a DM comes in, because you can clearly see where the PCs are struggling, and make adjustments as needed..

Roughness has mostly to do with the challenge you present the PCs, spamming uber spells on a party is going to lend toward frustrations if those spells are constantly hurting players significantly, or worse, killing them  consistently, and roughness has a lot to do with the amount of damage a PC takes every round..

If a PC has say, 1000 HP, and they die in just one round from combat wounds (not spells), then I'd say it's time to turn the damage down significantly, if the spells are owning the PCs, it could be high time you add some more Bonus Saving throws, or consider removing the spell from the monster, or maybe reassign it to the big boss or something..  (Bosses are meant to be a great challenge, not his lackeys)

You can make monsters tougher, so the game play isn't click and kill..

Furthermore, parties for the most part are extremely difficult to challenge, and building a module based upon the results of a large party is a very bad Idea I have found, from previous mistakes I made in building, (The Underworld)

I'm sure you can contest to a lot of information here having relevance to your questions, the discussion, and may even help you find solutions to any roughness in your game play..  On an ending note, as a tip, you can turn down the difficulty settings while on as a DM and see if this helps gameplay, if so, you can set it permanently in your ini file.

I hope this was helpful to ya Leo...  

Sincerly, your friend,

Genisys / Guile..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 24 août 2010 - 06:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               hey thanks.  i figured i shouldn't lurk forever.  no, not really, but it was probably too far off topic.

as for me, i play action, i prefer it to be rough.  if i can start a fight, walk out of the room grab a beer and still be alive when i come back in what is supposed to be challenging area...i just feel like a rat clicking on a dispenser for pellets.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 24 août 2010 - 11:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Onion Eater]

               Moderately difficult, but manageable encounters, but in an exceedingly dangerous situation.



Basically, you shouldn't have too much difficulty with any single fight, but when you string 'em all together, finishing an area is as difficult as can be.



Incidentally, one of the best ways I know to achieve this is to limit healing and resting.  Nothin's scarier than finding yourself several layers down in a dungeon, with two cure crits left, and seven HP.  Well, I guess you could have lost all your equipment to a rust monster...  That would be scarier.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Onion Eater wrote...

Moderately difficult, but manageable encounters, but in an exceedingly dangerous situation.

Basically, you shouldn't have too much difficulty with any single fight, but when you string 'em all together, finishing an area is as difficult as can be.

Incidentally, one of the best ways I know to achieve this is to limit healing and resting.  Nothin's scarier than finding yourself several layers down in a dungeon, with two cure crits left, and seven HP.  Well, I guess you could have lost all your equipment to a rust monster...  That would be scarier.

I glady leave any server that inflicts PC Rape or Nerfs Rest, instantly too...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 28 août 2010 - 02:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               good to know you don't like it, but I think its good hint
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 28 août 2010 - 03:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               

Genisys wrote...
I gotta ask the community, how hard do you like your game play?
Also, How rough is too rough for you?

 
Do I like it rough? '>
 
Without a doubt.  No module out there has provided me with the spells , the rhythm , the feats and powers, and of course the extremely modified iprp_damagecost.2da file in order to provide the utter and complete unnecessary roughness this gal has come to appreciate. 

With the lack of such things available to me elsewhere, I simply had to do it on my own.  And what did I realize?  I like it really really . . flesh-ripping, soul-crushingly rough.  Somehow going back to standard NWN/D&D rules just doesn't cut it anymore.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Sharona Curves wrote...

Genisys wrote...
I gotta ask the community, how hard do you like your game play?
Also, How rough is too rough for you?

 
Do I like it rough? '>
 
Without a doubt.  No module out there has provided me with the spells , the rhythm , the feats and powers, and of course the extremely modified iprp_damagecost.2da file in order to provide the utter and complete unnecessary roughness this gal has come to appreciate. 

With the lack of such things available to me elsewhere, I simply had to do it on my own.  And what did I realize?  I like it really really . . flesh-ripping, soul-crushingly rough.  Somehow going back to standard NWN/D&D rules just doesn't cut it anymore.

Yeah, I gotta hand it to ya Sharon, your not alone in that category, I think that's why many servers are pretty popular..

I on the other hand, can't take it when it's uber hard, e.g., the monsters never miss, and you rarely hit...
Gameplay like that turns me off fast, however, having to heal because the monsters are punching really hard isn't so bad, as long as I can breath in between heals... '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               I prefer MP with perma-death and resting restrictions, so in that sense I like it rough. But in a game like that, where each encounter can be your last and you can't retreat to saved games, it's best to find ways to make the game challenging other than combat. Good riddles and puzzles, role playing quandries, and failable quests are a much better source of difficulty than just throwing together a bunch of hard encounters.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Puzzles / Riddles / Role Play Quandries / Etc. don't present a test of character's combat worthiness, not really, they are something to make you stand there, scratch your head, and go hmmm, what do I do next?

Rough applies to combat, for the subject of this discussion anyway.

Hard-Core / Perma-Death & Resting Restrictions don't make it hard, they make it annoying..
(I mean, who wants to spend hours building / shopping / looting and only to lose all that time to an overwhelming encounter?)  >.>

Throwing together a bunch of hard encounters is NOT as easy as it sounds, you don't want to kill the PCs in one hit after all, and you do want to challenge a player without overwhelming or underwhelming them, in fact it's a science really....   Just look at how technical making one monsters can be.... woosh!  Then there is all that time spent playtesting to ensure quality, I mean heck, I think its' harder to build a good encounter than it is to do most other things, other than long scripted systems... (Like a forge or something)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 28 août 2010 - 07:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               not sure if it's helpful to the discussion -- the rougher the module is, the more structured it has to be and the less freedom the player will have.  if i say such and such is going to be very rough, it's in relation to what i expect that person has and is; and if that person doesn't have what i expect them -- nay, demand them -- to have, then they will be pwned.  so what i'm saying is: to like it rough, one has to accept that there will be overwhelming, and sometimes unpleasant, moments.  those are the learning experiences.   everything else is not rough.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 28 août 2010 - 08:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Urk]

               Can't help you then. I find hack 'n slash quite dull, especially in an environment with unlimited respawns. My gaming group fancy themselves PnP style role players so we run a old-school DMed campaign. Combat worthiness is not the measure of play. To us respawning is just as "lame" as perma-death is "annoying" to you. There's no real tension... no "stakes"... if death is just a quick nap. When building to a PnP environment combat must by necessity become more of a background to the action than the core of it. This means scaling back encounters so spellcasters can conserve their spells and fighters aren't dragging the whole party back to town every other fight because they're low on hit points.

BTW, while in SP play I can see the head scratching thing becoming irksome, you might want to give it another look in MP settings. As a rule role players are a pretty smart lot. My experience is that if you have 3 or more NWNers on the board working together it rarely takes them long to come up with a reasonable plan of action and it's awesome because it forces the players to interact (and maybe earn a little bonus RP XP). It can create some really fun moments.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Urk, 28 août 2010 - 08:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Urk wrote...

Can't help you then. I find hack 'n slash quite dull, especially in an environment with unlimited respawns. My gaming group fancy themselves PnP style role players so we run a old-school DMed campaign. Combat worthiness is not the measure of play. To us respawning is just as "lame" as perma-death is "annoying" to you. There's no real tension... no "stakes"... if death is just a quick nap. When building to a PnP environment combat must by necessity become more of a background to the action than the core of it. This means scaling back encounters so spellcasters can conserve their spells and fighters aren't dragging the whole party back to town every other fight because they're low on hit points.

BTW, while in SP play I can see the head scratching thing becoming irksome, you might want to give it another look in MP settings. As a rule role players are a pretty smart lot. My experience is that if you have 3 or more NWNers on the board working together it rarely takes them long to come up with a reasonable plan of action and it's awesome because it forces the players to interact (and maybe earn a little bonus RP XP). It can create some really fun moments.

Fair enough..

Everyone has their own style of play, in fact, that's what makes D&D / NWN so great, is you can shape the game to you or your group's taste, therefore what may be liked by one, may be hated by others, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy your taste, after all, we are all different people...  (Chocolate FTW!)

I'm just saying, puzzles / tricks / & RP for that matter, aren't really "rough", though they may be "tough", but not "rough".

'>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TM5000]

               It depends on the mood I am in.  '>

I split my time online between PvP type and hardcore RP servers because I get tired of one whan I have had too much and switch!  Server choices are quite limited these days though...

Not arena servers.  That just isn't fun to me.

I played on a server up until a few months ago that had such ridiculously over powered weapons/items that at level 40, a caster had no chance of beating a melee of the same level.  There was a regular player base and regular trips to the ultimate baddy on the server which almost required you to be a Fighter/Bard/RDD.   I didnt see anyone else survive there.  It was awesome.

So for me nothing is too rough.  I just like a little tenderness once in a while.

Added for sharts and giggles: 
Best hardcore server - LOTR ver 20
Best RP server - Arelith
               
               

               

                     Modifié par TM5000, 30 août 2010 - 01:58 .