Item Creation - Where does Uber Begin?

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               If we are going with the OC as normal, then we must look at the items for sale in the shops as the template for the common, or Normal. the OC chapter 1 without giving things away, Has nothing higher than +2 With most magic Item being +1  Chapter 2 has +2, with a few higher end items for monks, Chapter 3 has +2 and a few higher items as well, Chapter 4, has a couple of +5 items, but mainly +3 or lower ones. So I submit, Normal is around +3, high end is up to +5 That of course does not mean there are better Items in the OC, just as a sample of what is normal in the stores.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Shova, most of the best items are found on Bosses / Mobs / in Treasure Boxes though right?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               You are correct, Best Items are found in the treasure system, which is level based. However, since the OC is the baseline for Normal, and most people start the OC with a 1st level character, most treasure generated falls under +2, atleast untill 12th lev. The OC could have been completed with a level 14, therefore, common normal treasure is +2ish. Of course the OC only went to 20th level, therefore the point with the expansions is moot. Once what was once called godly, (in old school pnp above level 20) is now the norm, so of course the items had to become tweeked too.



If your playing at level 40, then yeah, your gonna call high end, +5 or better items normal. If you play to the lower levels, then +2 is high.  



Normal to me, would be commonly found, available in shops or as DM reward, since high end magic Items, (they use to be called artifacts) Are being mass produced, Normal is whatever happens to be a round in your game.  



Usualy when Uber discussions come up its all about ballance, the lack of, the desire to make them become ballanced, or worse the lets give everyone everything and no one will complain syndrome. I submit, do not give your players anything more than they need to barely survive, and occasionaly, give them just enough to die horribly.

Why this approach? simple, most people find the strugle to achieve more fun than achieving the thing, even though they do not realize it. Take sports, winning is nice, but playing the game is where the fun is.

Same holds true for adventuring, its the fight to take out whatever, and the thrill of discovery of the the things ill gotten loot, that peaks the interest in the first place, Not the oh lets go kill this cuz it drops this that so many Mods are built by.

As an example, I have played D&D for years, and my PC usualy survived each encounter, earning XP, getting loot, and becomming stronger, Starting out, encounters were a challenging, but never too hard to make it impossible, but sometimes PCs did not make it. Magic loot was low end, and there was very little of it found. Shops could not carry it, as it was so expensive, they could not afford to buy it. Fortunes were made on a +1 dagger. A Tower keep was built on the ransom of a +1, +4 vs giants sword, and that PC was set for is life. Then, a new DM, with a new way of handing out treasure took over, and the game became a joke. The items flooded in, via a magic shop, and then it was kill something, take the magic sword, shield armor, rings and what not from it, then go sell it, and repeat, rerinse, etc. After a few sesions, the game fell apart. Now, I can remember more about the first way than the game after the magic flood. The main reason is because, the magic became mundane. It was no longer mystical, or unknown, or worthy of being quested for.



the magic level of items is a personal taste  your taste is just as right as mine of course. When one uber player tells me all about his new +20 sword of whatchawhosits, I smile and fondly recall a PnP game where it took 10 sesions to identify a dagger that could whistle when the bar maid walked by. Sure it wasn't high end magic, but it was alot more fun than any plain ol +20 supersword.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               I think when it comes to what matters... 

For Server Moduels...

Module only matters about 20%
DMs Matter about 30 %
& The players on the module you will interract with matter about 50%

Because let's face it, there are a lot of different kinds of modules out there, some high some low, and some in the middle somewhere, and even True Uber Servers still exist...

But when it comes down to any given sunday, it's your DM that makes a huge difference..

Furthermore, if no players are on the server, it's chances of ever making it big are slim...

When it comes to single player modules it's all about design, gameplay, story, and how immersive the module is...

The module takes the forefront, while player still remains the major focus, items don't matter as long as everything is balanced and playable for a solo adventure...  Here all the elements that make a module great take precedence over DMs and Players, because there are none, other than that one player checking the module out...

Now, with that said, I'll make my final remark on this post..

I asked for feedback about items, & where uber is for you...

Obviously we all see things differently, some slightly some greatly, NEVERTHELESS... '>

I have learned A LOT by reading all of your responses, thank you all for posting comments and sharing your opinions & remarks...  

Cheers!  

Genisys - Out..  
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_kenween]

               within NWN "Uber" has a specific meaning.

An item is "uber" when creating it requires the use of an editing program outside of the nwntoolset or of the nwn basic program. Programs such as Leto sometimes enable this, but a more powerful erf or bic editor is usually used. An "uber" character is one which can only enter a server where "Enforce Legal character" (ELC) and "Item Level Restrictions" (ILR) are both DISABLED for entry.

The use of a high level bic editor is usually needed to breach ELC and ILR. Builds and items such as these have the capacity to do up to 15,000 or more damage in one hit.

The knowledge of what "uber" really is important to nwn because there is an active community which plays according to these rules & specifications. Uber is not just some "overpowered" quality. it is a specific set of restrictions.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par kenween, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               Ive played on many different pws in my time.  



perma-haste is uber, as i understood it, because it could be difficult to balance a pw.  The guy that i chatted with on this said perma-haste made some areas way to easy that were balanced for party play without perma-haste.  Interesting enough, this same guy made the top level of one of his Crafting items (it was an amazing crafting system, but it goes back to 2004ish.. so i cant remember the name of it) and it was only one item (mitts).  We had to figure it out ourselves what the properties were, so these items were very rare on the server.



I also played on a server where +10 enchant was the cap per item.  What was Uber about that was, again, the crafting system (a totally diffferent one).  THis one allowed you to take tokens which were earned from tasks and quests every level and use the tokens to make your own gear.  Never really seen a good whip for your whipmaster?  No problem!  You can make your own +10 with stuff on it.  The over the top uber was you could remake the items over and over again if you messed up (there was a token retrieval system).  



Dev crit ONLY on players is uber.  Dev crit on monsters and/or bosses isnt.  There are lots who hate dev crit, but there is nothing like the rush of fighting mobs of monsters, knowing that if you roll a 1, you're dead!  All of a sudden PM's become huge (or if you play PRC, clerics become the master class  '> ).  



There is so much to this that we could go on for months and never come to a consensus.  Oh well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               If you are using standard bioware monsters (not advisable), then yes, many things could easily be construed as uber, without a doubt a +7 weapon would be like extremely powerful against the standard monsters...

Haste improves a character's power considerable, is it uber?  That depends on the monsters you are using..

Many builders know, you gotta start beefing the monsters up at level 16-40, or a party of players, because they have better gear now & backup, will just push the monsters over, and it won't matter if the PCs have haste on, not really...

I had a poster remark about my Underworld module, that it was all about the items...  This is mostly true (but it's a party module mainly & requires a party, flat out), however, I'd like to say something in reponse to that, and have other people hear it..  If you were level 40 and you got naked, could you take the level 40 monters in your module?  If the answer is no, then your module is item dependent too..

Heck, even in the Oiriginal Campaign, ITEMS ARE VERY NECESSARY!    '>

So, basically, what I'm saying is, all modules are more or less Item dependent, unless of course +2 is the highest level item in the module, however +2 is weak compared to a spell that gives +5 AB &  +5 Magical Damage (and there are more buff spells), or the spell that can enchant a weapon for a +5 Enchantment Bonus (with a long duration), therefore trying to control items by reducing them only solidifies the power of magic all the more.. 

Even if the spell changes to weapons are temporary, players will STILL avoid any and all restrictions you put on them and find a way to win... and trust me from experience, they will call for help when they want to win bad enough..  And they will win, but then again, thats the whole point of the game, to have fun and win.. (at least sometimes)  So when a large party learns there is strength in #s, then your low level item & low level module will be laughed at by large parties I assure you, no module can handle a 10 player party, unless it's using custom spawn in scripts to spawn in a mass amount of monsters based upon the # of players in the party present in the area..

Balance isn't tough, it's about controlling how easy things are, and how hard they are, and that lays 80% with the monsters, not the gear the PC have available, and you can always raise the DC on things should they have a lot of skill points to use...  '>

I hope this helps you in some way mate..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_avado]

               LOL I agree! You just crank the AC or DC! I remember a little frost gobly king that, for a lv 30 quest, there were very few lv 30 melee characters (heck lv 35 had a time ) that could touch him! Now you need to get the players thinking, but the answer makes the rest of the mod even less challenging cuz once you figure out how to take this dude out (and i did with a lv 20 character, though getting the lv 20 to him was a trick), even the end bosses become "easy".

I think the mod developer must understand there is no perfect! One incident comes to mind where the creators of the mod added PRC so they could beef up the areas (and it was a party server to begin with). Their logic was - make things so tough that you had to party! Well, there are some smart dudes out there! I learned from a dude that was so good that he soloed these "hard" areas and he even took out the main boss with one shot cuz they forgot one little thing! Yes, it was all alot of flukes, but the reality was, he soloed the end area and took out the boss that was thought to need a full party to beat. How do you balance that? You dont.

There must come a point (and i am speaking from what must be as i have never had the interest in hosting a pw) where you just say "SO WHAT!" I remember farming an area for some really cool gear and i got a pm from the owner (known to me) to keep it quiet as he didnt want the word getting out. On a server where +5 was top, with potential of +7 from one spot, i had an inventory of 15 +5 bastard swords! Would have totally killed the economy if that got out.

Or you give the dragon the spell Heal to use to keep the fight going, thinking this is fair, right? Then the cleric buffs and then casts Silence on himself. Then the cleric TANKS and his ONLY job is to keep the silence aura on the dragon.

So, what happens is, you get all paranoid about every possible combo and you make the boss immune to it all and now there is no game cuz when you have no options, it is boring.

Just my two cents
               
               

               

                     Modifié par avado, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_kenween]

               for the most recent replies about just how hard a mod and monsters can be made ---



i think the best solution is to have dms login and possess player and monster builds and fight the players toe to toe. NWN's AI is really good but it's very exciting for a player to try to kill a "human" opponent (and they shud die a lot too).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Saying you make weapons +5 or armor +5 with buffs is not an argument since you can easily nerf those spells to +3 max which is what I did in my campaign.  So for mine artifacts are in the +5 - +7 range, that's the best you can get.  I have a few exceptions such as special weapons for many classes which gain in power as you do.  For instance a 40th lvl barbarian can get a sword that does +10 xtra damage lvl/4, in the hands of a 4th level barb it would do 1 xtra damage, though he could not use the weapon with ILR he would have to be at least 10th to use it.



It's actually one of the best things about the game.  You can craft it to your liking and you decide what uber is since it's all relative.   I recall early on in my Second God War map some people where suprised you got gifted with a +1 weapon at the start.  Later on someone commented they thought that was too much for a starting character but then after playing in the world for a while they realized you really needed it just to survive.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               +5 AC / AB to +7 (AB but not AC) is fine in my book...

In fact, the most balanced module I ever played on was a +5 main items, and some +6 to +8 artifacts, but even these were greatly balanced, and AC items above +5 were restricted to 1 or 2 types of item, like platemail & shield

I love your idea bout the weapons by class, especially the barbarian one, it lends to an amount of epic realism, for let's face it, barbarians kind of get the shaft if you use +12 Ability Score Bonuses from all items....

+1 lol, to me a +4 or higher would be too much, but that's just me.. +1 is NOT going to tip the scales in the PC's favor horrendously, a +4 on the other hand would definitely make you 4 levels higher and that's pretty powerful, but not uber..

10 Base AC - Most monsters will have 12 - 20 AC at level 0-4, so +1 will not make you OWN anything, not really...

+2 or +3 may make you hit more consistently, and for some that is uber...  (I totally dissagree with this thinking)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               i'd add re. uber items: that it depends on if you want to have pvp as an integral part of your module/world. if not sky is the limit for uber imho -- it's totally arbitrary, esp. with the great work being done by the nwnx folks (with the caveat i'm an action sort).  if you want pvp... i'd wager uber is +8ish, all else being equal.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par pope_leo, 05 septembre 2010 - 11:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

kenween wrote...

for the most recent replies about just how hard a mod and monsters can be made ---

i think the best solution is to have dms login and possess player and monster builds and fight the players toe to toe. NWN's AI is really good but it's very exciting for a player to try to kill a "human" opponent (and they shud die a lot too).

This is something one of our players suggested and we loved it and did it.

We made dragons ONLY spawn in when a DM is online to possess them. It added a whole new dimension to Dragons and it is a right of honor to have the name Wyrmslayer added to yours.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Xovian]

               

avado wrote...
Dev crit ONLY on players is uber.  Dev crit on monsters and/or bosses isnt.  There are lots who hate dev crit, but there is nothing like the rush of fighting mobs of monsters, knowing that if you roll a 1, you're dead!  All of a sudden PM's become huge.....  

There is so much to this that we could go on for months and never come to a consensus.  Oh well.

I agree with this. Restricting class abilities only changes what the "next best thing" is.
If npc's also possess such abilites it isn't hard to balance, and tends to keep people on their toes, or if nothing else, ere on the side of caution.

As a builder I look for an array of options, and try to make them as "fair" as possible.
An example of this was by adding claduep's random item code to the onspawn scripts of various npc's I've made.
I even set it where it was based on CR (an epic module still in the works), if the CR is lower then 50 the npc has a chance to get random immunities, abilities and just about anything else under the sun. All completely randomly, and it also keeps things fresh this way, cause it prevents the ability to play the same game twice.

I've recently adjusted my AI to also get in and stay in combat even after resurrection spells.
Just because you kill an NPC, doesn't mean their friends won't bring em back, and that alone can add quite a challenge to a module, especially when they will not stand around idle as what would happen with the default scripts.

Spells of course, at least the more powerful variants (harm/drown) can be a problem. The solution is easy enough and there are several ways to do it. Either alter the spell as some servers do, add immunitys for certain creatures, or even have the ability be useable vs the players. It keeps things in an equalibrium by using various methods.

As posted above, a DM can always make things more challenging, but there are also various ways for builders to make things a bit harder when and as needed too.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

pope_leo wrote...

i'd add re. uber items: that it depends on if you want to have pvp as an integral part of your module/world. if not sky is the limit for uber imho -- it's totally arbitrary, esp. with the great work being done by the nwnx folks (with the caveat i'm an action sort).  if you want pvp... i'd wager uber is +8ish, all else being equal.

So True Leo '>

everything below +8 isn't really uber, and it's fairly equal in respects to gameplay, +8 is definitely where uber begins for me...




: Core i5 750 Club :
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .