Item Creation - Where does Uber Begin?

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I tend to follow the 1st ED. Dungeon Masters guide, and anything over a general +2, is overpowered in my Mods. I have found, playing on several different High powered item servers, as well as some SP mods, that when the items become better than a general +2, then the character building switches from the skills, feats, and abilities, to what gear they have, or plan to get. There is of course nothing wrong with that, if that is how you like to play, I find it lacking in my game play. As an example, I recently dled a higher item mod, with legendary levels, to play. Now the gear is, higher end in my opinion, and with the wal-martish availability, ie, available in stores, and the huge amount of coin dropped both on enter the mod, on death of creatures, I had my 1st lev so geared up that I had no poroblem running through the 10 lev+ areas. Nothing wrong with that, but for me its too uber, cheesey, and lacks the depth that D&D had in my experience, that I wont bother playing it again. In defence of the mod builder, it was stated that a DM was needed for story, etc, however, I would hate to see what a DM could spawn in that would challenge my char at 40th lev+ with the gear available.



So what is reasonable to have, and not be uber in my opinion:

no more than +1 to a stat,

1 extra spell slot

no more than general +2, a +3, or even 4 against a specific race, or moster class is fine.

never resist, or soak more than 5

no more than +5 skill points,

never more than 1 use a day, more likely that it is a charged item, with 10 charges max

no haste,regeneration, or immunityies to crit, death, or mind, sneek, or poison. or the like. never more than immunity to specific spell, and no item ever ever has more than 3 total properties.



               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               +3 Item Worlds would make Ice Storm Godly, after all, your not allowed a save, and I don't think it's level capped either...

So no stats would matter, for the caster that is...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 30 août 2010 - 06:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Sharona Curves wrote...

Genisys wrote...

Is that +15 for all 5 Armor Types?

 
Yes.  It is not uncommon for characters to achieve AC's into the hundreds, however it's a false sense of security at best. *evil grin*

Genisys wrote
Wow Sharon, how do you manage a +15 AC item in your module?

Manage?  I let dynamic spawn scripting handle it for me.  With creatures like the Nosferatu , the Valkyrie , the Minotaur and soooo many others like them balance is managed via module setup rather than a guessing game.

Hacking is always an option... o.O
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               

Genisys wrote...

+3 Item Worlds would make Ice Storm Godly, after all, your not allowed a save, and I don't think it's level capped either...

So no stats would matter, for the caster that is...

Your right, Ice storm is godly, as it is a magic spell, however, since the mod is on hard core rules, a caster casting it close to him, or herself, would be damaged just  as the target. I do have items of 5% immunity to cold, fire and the like, those help, as do items with +1, to+3 save vs., those help too. however If your talking about straight 1 on 1 battles, be it PC vs monster, or PC vs PC, then yes, there is a lack of ballance, as the game was made with the party in mind. I do not focus build for 1 vs, but rather group vs. Though I could also point out, that with a lack of high end gear, the mage who casts ice storm, has just as low end gear as the one he casts it on, if they were to close in, and stick the pointy end of thier sword in the mage, odds are the spell would be disrupted, or in worse case that the spell would kill the mage, and damage but not kill the attacker.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               From my xp perma-haste gives about 2 levels to the PC or creature that has it. It is certainly to be ranked aong with aforementioned things such as unaltered HIPS, Devastating Critical, Epic Dodge, etc... Lots of other uber stuff there. Of course it's all relative which makes the whole argument sort of pointless, and strikes me as a modified sort of Trolling.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ffbj, 30 août 2010 - 11:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Xovian]

               Guess I'll chime in here, as I tend to prefer epic levels of play compared to low levels.

For me, uber is where class abilities are no longer needed. The example someone gave in the thread earlier for PM and Immunity to Critical. Even simply things like immunity to poison and disease, or even Fear (druid/paladin abilities respectively) should never happen on items because it detracts from the pros of taking those classes in the first place. I've always been a firm believer if an ability or feat, or spell ability is given it should be to a far lesser effect of the classes that can get them as a standard ability. No cleric, fighter, rogue should be running around with wands that cast Time Stop or Disjunction. At the same time, no wizard should be walking around with the ability to Dev crit unless they met the feat requirements and got them the old fashioned way, which is not by the equipment they wear. And honestly if they did all that, they are trying to be a jack of all trades and have lost much in the way of their spell casting by doing so. So it is balanced in it's own right that way.

Personally I've never had an issue with the default abilities of classes even when combined with other classes. It doesn't matter whether a builder removes said abilities or not from their module (ex: Dev Crit, Time Stop, HIPS, or even entire classes such as the Epic Shifter). By removing one you simply replace what is the "next best thing". It's a cycle that will not die and should be excepted and embraced in my opinion. There are many builds, there are a lot of good builds, and there are always a few exceptional builds. Nothing a builder (module wise) does will really change this. You can only change the order of how effective any given (variable) class wise falls in the food chain. The same can be said with highly restrictive rest systems, as it really only hurts the various casters, and gives a green light for more melee eccentric builds.

For me Uber happens when it allows the stepping on of another classes toes, to the extent that the class is no longer desired. Imagine an easily acquired item that allows for Dual-Wield. Makes the Ranger class a lot less desired for obvious reason, and no campaign that desires any semblance of balance should let this happen.

On a fianl note, I consider high end to be anything of +5 (and obviously below).
Anything beyond that range is an artifact, and most artifacts carry some heavy penalties for using them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Xovian, 31 août 2010 - 03:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Moderation / Realism / Balance           ---- Uber / Godly / Out of Balance

So where is the middle?

Unless Moderation / Realism / Balance is the middle

Then..

Low Level Items / Hard Care / Nerfed Spells would be like to the left side of the Middle, where things are underpowered and the game mechanics are changed considerably..

So we have essentially 3 Paradigms?

Low Gear/ Nerfs / Hard Core ---   Moderation / Realism / Balance  --- Uber / Godly / Unbalanced

Low / Mid / High

I see the lines now, more clearly...

To me, the left side is unbearable..
The middle is playble...
The Right Side is more fun...  (For who doesn't enjoy having this uber godly item once in a while?)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 31 août 2010 - 04:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               

Genisys wrote...

So we have essentially 3 Paradigms?

Low Gear/ Nerfs / Hard Core ---   Moderation / Realism / Balance  --- Uber / Godly / Unbalanced

 
I doubt it's actually that clear-cut where there is only 3 paradigms.   Given the above there are many and numerous in between points.  Low gear/Nerfs/Non-hardcore, Low gear/Non-nerfs/Hardcore, Moderation/Realism/Unbalanced, Moderation/Unreal/Unbalanced, Uber/Godly/Balanced, Uber/Non-Godly/Balanced . . . . these are just some of the many paradigms that are possible. Low gear + Nerfing does not always equate to hardcore.  Moderation + Realism is rarely if ever balanced(poor NPCs).  Uber + Godly does not have to be unbalanced.  There are numerous paradigms between and around the above three listed.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               The 3 paradigms are...

Below Normal / Normal / Above Normal

w/ Below & Above being abnormal..

Normal being anything that is based upon:

a) core game rules / mechanics
realism (is realistic / normal)
c) uses moderation as a guide.. (because sometimes fantasy needs moderation)

I was only listing things that could or usually does fall in one of those three paradigms..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 31 août 2010 - 12:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               I'll not say very much here. I will just say that this is very difficult and also depends on a lot of different things.

I think the original poster has a very specific type of modules in mind. Modules that are geared towards powerbuilding, action and PvP.

Most roleplay PW's I play at you would unfortunately have a hard time finding anything magical at all. Only like masterwork version of items (that is +1 to hit, not enhancement +1 which would give +1 both to hit and damage) if you're lucky and that full plate...well..good luck....

It is also not true that low magic worlds make mage/wiz uber good. Try solo with a mage/wiz in such a world and you will see what I mean....usually the death penalties are not nice also....so....

Personally I am really looking for something in between roleplaying in action adhering to what Redunct said pretty much...about +3 as maximum.....and level 20.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 31 août 2010 - 01:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I would not put nerfing with low end magic, As I do not as a rule nerf spells. I do make minor adjustments to spells for better MP play, ie timestop not being server wide. However Low end magic really has nothing at all to do with Hard core rules, as you can play on easy or normal settings just as easy as HCR. Just as you can have godly Items and have Hard core rules. I think where your confusing yourself is with the idea that it must be ballanced, there is no real ballance unless you make every class the same, at which point I would have to ask why? As that is not D&D. The beauty of D&D, and NWN, is that you can tailor it to suit your own play style. Thats why NWN has endured, and hasn't been surpassed by a newer game. In my previous post I stated that I followed the 1st ed DMG for item levels, I also quote it here: "Take the time to have fun with the AD&D rules. Add, create, expand,and extrapolate. Don't just let the game sit there, and do not become a rule lawyer worrying about each piddy detail. If you can't figure out the answer, MAKE IT UP! Whatever you do, Do no fall into the trap that the rules are complete, they are not." That works with Items too, If it works in your world, then It is right. However, be aware that not everyone will agree, or even want to play it. Such is life. As far as trying to lump each style, I think your just going to frustrate those that your lumping. I would say, there are new players, and old ones, Roleplayers and Hack and Slashers, and everything in between, and leave it there. As far as Mods go, take your most powerful Item, figure out what level it is, and use that as the max in the vault discription. Let those that look at DLing it to play decied if it is uber, or lowend, or somewhere in between, Because they will anyway, whether you post it or not.



Good luck.



               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Good Point Shova, then hard core may be considered Above Normal, easy being below normal then..

However, SuperFly, PVP may be in the Action Category, but often PVP must be highly controlled & balanced..

Often PVP servers may use a below normal systematic approach with game mechanics to obtain balance...

However you retain balance by systems / items or what have you, balance highly effects what is normal and what is not, for even uber items, like Sharon said, can be controlled to a point that they are in fact normal in comparison to say + 5 weapon, which is a normal weapon by the OC / Original Game Standards..  And low items can be normal, if used against normal monsters / creatures...

When you step out of the OC / Original NWN Game Standards then your module may shift in one of the abnormal directions... Low or High (below or above normal gameplay..)

I'm not saying anything is bad, nor is anything being applied towards my taste, I'm observing things, that's all..

The builder has ultimate control and the environment they create will effect gameplay one way or another, depending upon how they change things, what item properties they add, and what adjustments they make...

I'd dare say there is another Paradigm, and that being completely outside of the base rules, where a scripter may  cause things to happen via scripting which the rules are thrown out the window, no rules are followed, or there has been editing to 2das which completely break the above normal paradigm..

An example of this is where a Builder makes a script that assigns damage and all of the PCs are not allowed a save, here we have forced effects, it's no longer in the below normal / normal / above normal categories, but would be another type of environment all together..

Another example is when things stop being legit, and start being completely Uber, where 2das allow for bending the rules far above normal, where a blank dagger with no properties would deal 20d100 damage or more..  This kind of Uber would not be legitimate gameplay & a new system created by the designer, furthermore, it wouldn't even be realistic..  All of the prior Paradigms are remotely realistic or controllable..

Uncontrolled / Unrealistic / Uber  would be examples of the 4th Paragrim, I don't have a name for it though, we can call it simply Truely Uber and the above normal uber would be called Uber-Legit..

I definitely feel there is a distinct difference between Uber Legit and True Uber, for True Uber is often unrealistic, while Uber Legit, can in fact be realistic and well within the standard rules of gameplay...  (level 41 - 60 would be considered Uber Legit, though it's a non-standard adoption of a new rule set, it follows along the lines of a systematic approach to normal)

Subraces would be considered above normal, until subraces were given extreme amounts of bonuses, like +12 or higher, or the ability to cast powerful spells / unlimited uses per day (Like Greater Ruin)...

Spell systems which far exceed normal rule sets can fall in either Uber Legit or True Uber, depending upon how realistic it remains..  For adding Resistance or Damage Immunity to a module can balance more powerful items or spells, but Unrealistic Power unchecked is not balanceable in any way...

For you cannot really balance a weapon that does 13,000 damage, not really...

I don't really enjoy True Uber game play, and even Uber Legit can be unappealling to me if it's not properly done..

And for the sake of continuing this rather lenghty and indepth discussion, we are talking about What is Uber to you?

Everyone has good points of view, nobody should be knocked for their ideas / views, for we may all look at the apple and decide what we want to do with it as we see fit, and building in nwn is all about the builder's & player's taste, therefore, what may appeal to some, may not appeal to others, while some may  like a lot of different styles of gameplay...

I like how one player put it, they like RP sometimes, but may get bored of it, then goes to play Action untill they get bored of it, then goes and plays Story Modules for a while... Variety is nice, no doubt..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 31 août 2010 - 02:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               I've often wondered exactly what is normal, what it is to be normal, or how something can be described as normal.  More often than not, I look at what I am told is "normal" and I thank the lucky stars that I do not fit into that Paradigm. or am able to think / go beyond that which is normal. 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               I think 'normal' would be classified as not belonging to any extreme.  So I guess that would be True Neutral.  But TN in itself is an extreme, so normal must be halfway between TN and every other alignment.  Oh no, I’ve gone & DIV/0.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               lol guys, that's a pretty funny take on normal...

But there is a normal in NWN and the d20 System...

It's more or less the base system... +5 AC / +5 AB (or Enchantment Bonus), as far as items are concerned...  That's normal - by the OC Standards..

Then there was HOU which introduced +7 items?

So, normal just got wierd..

Well True Neutral is an Alignment, and Chaotic Neutral would be more "Normal" by the human standards...  (If you know what I mean)

Then there are the extremes like Governments which are Lawful Neutral, they are not guided by Good obviously, they are guided by greed & power, even borderline Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil, but they write the laws which dictate what is and is not legal, though usually for gain?

It's all madness I say...  '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 31 août 2010 - 09:35 .