Item Creation - Where does Uber Begin?

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Onion Eater wrote...

It aint about where Uber starts, but where Uber ends.

Meaning, there are two different uses of Uber here.  One, the objective Uber, applies to the limits of the game engine.  I don't think that's what's being discussed, so, we'll move to the second...

The second usage is subjective.  It depends on the the environment.  Perma-haste may be the norm in one land, and entirely overblown in the other.  It all depends on how the balancing is done.  There's a great deal of space to account for personal taste, but if an item is far and away better than most else that's available, then you've hit uber.

That last sentence you state here, is very significant, and right on the money, thanks for that..

It's going to define how I make stuff in the future, everything should be in perspective to close to the other gear that is available to the PC at their current character's level.  Granted, a PC may encounter a +5 powerful weapon, but of course, they shouldn't be able to use it till level 20 or higher, to keep the balance...

Obviously a level 1 with a +5 weapon (remember the story of King Author), is going to be pretty uber, especially if it has more damage on it than just the enchantment bonus damage.

True Uber (Being pushing the game far beyond the normal rules) is not something most people talk about, unless they are trying to make a module like that, or are on a module like that..

Thanks again for that fabulous tip mate..
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Redunct]

               The issue with making items too powerful is the bias it holds to non-gear dependent classes.



I personally try to avoid any module that gives anything past +3, and anything past +3 better be very difficult to acquire.



Haste is and always has been ridiculous. Perm. haste better be something difficult to obtain, and I mean kill the dragon that requires 10 people with a very low chance of dropping.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

Redunct wrote...

The issue with making items too powerful is the bias it holds to non-gear dependent classes.

I personally try to avoid any module that gives anything past +3, and anything past +3 better be very difficult to acquire.

Haste is and always has been ridiculous. Perm. haste better be something difficult to obtain, and I mean kill the dragon that requires 10 people with a very low chance of dropping.

This is feedback for consideration, not meant to be a flame or argumentative..

I have never transcribed to this style of modules, in fact it's one of the reasons I started building my own modules..

Furthermore, one player put it quite nicely when he said:

"Low gear modules only make mages & magic all the more powerful.."

A wizard, even with completely crummy gear, would OWN any other class that didn't have immunities or item properties to be able to endure a mage's power, yes even monks...

Let's face it, a level 40 monk with Improved Spell Resistance X cannot stop a level 40 mage's spell, sorry..
(Especially if they get Dispelled by Mords (-10 SR))  <<<IF that still works since the 1.69 Update..

Uber to me is when one class completely dominates a server or module, unless the module was built specifically for a class, though these tend to be offline modules, I've seen server modules that tipped the balance horrendously in favor of one class or purely melee/ranged combat by nerfing spells horrendously..  Nerfing, however, on the other hand is NOT the answer to balance things in my professional opinion...

Power = Fun, as long as you don't get carried away with it, and you can alway make adjustments as needed, for the game is without a doubt very controllable, even if things get too crazy...

Low level gear in my opinion isn't even worth venturing a module to find..

Case / Point in hand, how many people have cheated in an offline module???  Don't lie...

Finally, I'll say this, high level gear on the other hand can completely nullify classes' power / affectiveness, and even render them a poor choice.  Many modules I've played on have effectively made rogues / monks and other classes extremely hard to play because monsters are so hard and/or the gear is so good, therefore, other classes are increased in power while the weaker classes are weakened in power...

This of course is where uber truly begins & ends, because once you've gone uber it's a lot of work to make it not uber..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 24 août 2010 - 06:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Genisys wrote...

"Low gear modules only make mages & magic all the more powerful.."

Exactly, totally agreee with Genisys.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               I'm of the opinion that anything that negates a large portion of the game mechanics be it positive or negative, is Uber.  I feel that some of these things can be used in moderation.  Being unable to resist, or immune to a very specific thing may have its uses, but it needs to come at a cost.  But to have permanent immunities, it really cuts out a large portion of any module over time.

These may be incomplete, but are as best I can remember.

Item Properties like: True Seeing, Freedom, Mind-Immunity, and Vorpal, some On Hit: among others I’m sure. 

Other things could use a cool down or change to their function: Knockdown, HIPS, Disarm, Pick Pocket, pretty standard complaint points there.

Some feats are over the top: Dev Crit, Epic Dodge, and Improved Evasion come to mind, at least in their default form. 

Damage reduction, soak and immunity are available through other routes than gear or spells, and should be evaluated very carefully.  If you’ve played a dexer, you know about the two hour AFK sessions to defeat something.

class combinations: the mix of PM with RDD for example.

Spells and Spell-Like abilities, stunning fist, for example.  Given to monsters of high level can result in a DC90 40 round stun at 15 attacks/round or whatever.  Who’s going to resist that?  Most of these effects are just way[/i] too long, or at too high an occurrence to avoid.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par tmanfoo, 23 août 2010 - 09:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

tmanfoo wrote...

I'm of the opinion that anything that negates a large portion of the game mechanics be it positive or negative, is Uber.  I feel that some of these things can be used in moderation.  Being unable to resist, or immune to a very specific thing may have its uses, but it needs to come at a cost.  But to have permanent immunities, it really cuts out a large portion of any module over time.

These may be incomplete, but are as best I can remember.

Item Properties like: True Seeing, Freedom, Mind-Immunity, and Vorpal, some On Hit: among others I’m sure. 

Other things could use a cool down or change to their function: Knockdown, HIPS, Disarm, Pick Pocket, pretty standard complaint points there.

Some feats are over the top: Dev Crit, Epic Dodge, and Improved Evasion come to mind, at least in their default form. 

Damage reduction, soak and immunity are available through other routes than gear or spells, and should be evaluated very carefully.  If you’ve played a dexer, you know about the two hour AFK sessions to defeat something.

class combinations: the mix of PM with RDD for example.

Spells and Spell-Like abilities, stunning fist, for example.  Given to monsters of high level can result in a DC90 40 round stun at 15 attacks/round or whatever.  Who’s going to resist that?  Most of these effects are just way[/i] too long, or at too high an occurrence to avoid.

Your post has me chuckling a little here.. did you forget anything?

I trust WOTC / TSR has given classes their special abilities / feats to balance things vs the Magic Department, after all harm / implosion / timestop  and a host of other uber spells, by themselves are far more uber than many of the feat I've seen...

I've got to make a significant statement here to help clarify why some things aren't uber...

Namely because we have what's effectively God Levels, becuase anything over level 20, is pretty much godly, considering the +5 AC / AB system that was originally created, for no monster will be able to stand in +5 gear against a party of level 30's or 40's, add Legendary Levels (41-60) and your talking about the need for some seriously powerful items to keep a remote balance on a module...

I believe there is an important reason why Higher Ground and some of the more Uber (by some people's standards) are so popular, and that is because they are not afraid to turn it up a bit, and custom is really what makes NWN independently better than most games out there...

Can anyone understand where I'm comming from here?  (Like Advanced D&D Rules - Level 100 was mega fun!)

Furthermore, on PVP servers, where they keep gear low, they tend to nerf spells to keep everything within a reasonable and playable fighting balance, the only problem is, more often than not, mages are watered down to cantrips... unfortunately...  I actually played on one PVP server where the items had very minimal properties, and all weapons more or less did the around the same damage, which is difficult but possible to balance out..

One simple item can throw a module out of balance, sometimes, what you think may also be uber, like an item that can cast 4 greater ruins a day, may not be uber at all, well that is until 5 PCs are spamming greater ruin on the boss, then you see the true power of your item come forth..  I love servers who may release an item, temporarially, though they may remove if it proves too powerful, as servers like this show that they can adapt, evolve, and aren't afraid to give the PC's some fun either... after all, uber can sometimes be fun too... '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 23 août 2010 - 10:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_tmanfoo]

               Oh I am sure I've forgotten a whole lot of stuff.  Tabletop campaigns where even the gods fell were fun, castles in the skies.  All good times.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               In my opinion, Uber begins when items make other class feats, skills, or abilities no longer needed for group play.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               

SHOVA wrote...

In my opinion, Uber begins when items make other class feats, skills, or abilities no longer needed for group play.

I agree with Improved Evasion / Epic Dodge / Hide In Plain Sight / Immunity to Crits /& Freedom being too uber, after all, why build a Pale Master if everyone can get Immunity To Crits, or if you hand out HIPs why play Shadow Dancer at all?

When creating items for a module it's easy to make mistakes, truly, while you can remove properties from an item, I'd like to stress players tend to get very upset at this, therefore, at least make the item still desirable by adding something powerful in replacement of losing the property, like 5% - 10% immunity to damage to 1 or multiple Types, or something to that effect, this way the players don't walk away feeling robbed... (Especially if they worked really hard to get the item)

Now if it's a server wide strip, of all items, then it may be paramount to make a good script to replace, say, True Seeing with Skill Bonus - Spot + 12 and you may throw in like Cast Spell (1 use / day) See Invisible, to equal out the loss...

Permanent Properties are very powerful, this is where Cast Spells X Times / Day can help illeviate the loss of properties to items..

Because Clerics / Druids / Mages can all cast True Seeing it's not going to great affect your module if you hand out true seeing as a spell or a permanent ability, unless it's a PVP module, though, rogues will not be able to get many sneaks off if everything has true seeing either..

One thing I'll stand behind as a builder is, if monsters have it, the players should have it too, the helps keep balance, and that works vica versa, if players get it, the monsters should get it as well.  The only probably notible exception to this would be the amount of damage monsters can deal, because sometimes monsters need to deal more damage to be much harder, especially Bosses. (the end monster / npc that is in control over all the lackey NPCs or Monsters)

While there is no such thing as a perfect module or balance within a module, we all strive to keep it reasonably enjoyable for all, and that's tough to do as well..  Also, temporary spells are a much better solution to giving out something rather than handing out a permanent property on an item.  I personally prefer to limit the use of spells by putting it on items, therefore the PC has to wear the item, rather than putting it on a rod / misc. item / or using potions, for potions more or less means they can use at will, with unlimited uses per day..

Hope you guys enjoyed this post & thread, thank you all for your feedback, it has been much appreciated..
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 25 août 2010 - 05:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TM5000]

               Uber begins when you have too much advantage in your environment.

There is a forge on the server I mentioned in your "do you like it rough" topic that allowed you to create weapons with +20 to everything.  I mean every type of damage you can think of.  You could add immunities to every type of damage (20/-) to items too.  It sounds ridiculous but the baddies on the server were just as difficult to fight, so...  very subjective question.

Normally, I think +5 should be enough.  Your build should do the rest!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TM5000]

               

Genisys wrote...

One thing I'll stand behind as a builder is, if monsters have it, the players should have it too, the helps keep balance, and that works vica versa, if players get it, the monsters should get it as well.

I could not agree more.  This really caught my eye as the server I play on the most had banned Dev Crit (comments withheld) but certain monsters still have it.

Without starting a discussion on the true value of this feat, if it is banned then it is banned.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Redunct]

               

Genisys wrote...

Redunct wrote...

The issue with making items too powerful is the bias it holds to non-gear dependent classes.

I personally try to avoid any module that gives anything past +3, and anything past +3 better be very difficult to acquire.

Haste is and always has been ridiculous. Perm. haste better be something difficult to obtain, and I mean kill the dragon that requires 10 people with a very low chance of dropping.

This is feedback for consideration, not meant to be a flame or argumentative..

I have never transcribed to this style of modules, in fact it's one of the reasons I started building my own modules..

Furthermore, one player put it quite nicely when he said:

"Low gear modules only make mages & magic all the more powerful.."

I don't in what universe exactly magic casters are overpowered but okay.

A wizard, even with completely crummy gear, would OWN any other class that didn't have immunities or item properties to be able to endure a mage's power, yes even monks...

That's has not been my experience across the board between NwN and DnD.

Let's face it, a level 40 monk with Improved Spell Resistance X cannot stop a level 40 mage's spell, sorry..
(Especially if they get Dispelled by Mords (-10 SR))  <<<IF that still works since the 1.69 Update..

The caster shouldn't get much casts off between the improved knockdowns thier gonna have little avoidance for, not to mention thier lack of hitpoints relative to melee. I'm curious how you're arguing for monks when they're just the class that is mostly penalized by over-gearing.

Uber to me is when one class completely dominates a server or module, unless the module was built specifically for a class, though these tend to be offline modules, I've seen server modules that tipped the balance horrendously in favor of one class or purely melee/ranged combat by nerfing spells horrendously..  Nerfing, however, on the other hand is NOT the answer to balance things in my professional opinion...

Um, well okay, but that's not really what we were talking about (unless you mean things like harm or time stop which are fundamentally broken in many situations).

Power = Fun, as long as you don't get carried away with it, and you can alway make adjustments as needed, for the game is without a doubt very controllable, even if things get too crazy...

Low level gear in my opinion isn't even worth venturing a module to find..

Usually one would play a module to advance one's character or the storyline and not so much just gear.

Case / Point in hand, how many people have cheated in an offline module???  Don't lie...

A lot probably, I know I haven't however.

Finally, I'll say this, high level gear on the other hand can completely nullify classes' power / affectiveness, and even render them a poor choice.  Many modules I've played on have effectively made rogues / monks and other classes extremely hard to play because monsters are so hard and/or the gear is so good, therefore, other classes are increased in power while the weaker classes are weakened in power...

This of course is where uber truly begins & ends, because once you've gone uber it's a lot of work to make it not uber..

So... you agree with me then? I'm confused. Anything past  +3 will do what you said.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               Our building team uses the following guidelines for item creation:

Item Restrictions Normal:

Ability Bonus: +10
AC Bonus: +15
Arcane Spell Failure: No Restriction
Attack Bonus: 15
Bonus Feats: 3 Feats
Bonus Spell Slots: 6 Slots
Cast Spells: 5 Spells(Limit Level 15)
Damage Bonus: Up to 100 Damage Limit 3 Types
Damage Reduction: +10/50
Damage Resistance: 50/- Total resistance with up to 3 Types
Enhancement Bonus: +15
Immunity Damage: 150% with MAX 50% per / Limit 5 Types
Immunity Misc: 2 Types
Immunity Specific Spells: 5 Spells
Immunity Spell Schools: 1 School
Immunity Spell Levels: 3 or Lower
On Hit: DC20
On Hit: Cast Spell: No Limits
Regeneration: +6
Saving Throw Bonus: +10
Skill Bonus: +40 MAX+15/Per / Limit 5 Skills
Spell Resistance: 40
Turn Resistance: +10
Vampiric Regeneration: +6

Item Restrictions Artifacts:

Ability Bonus: +20
AC Bonus: +20
Arcane Spell Failure: No Restrictions
Attack Bonus: +20
Bonus Feats: 5Feats
Bonus Spell Slots: 12 Slots
Cast Spells: 10 Spells(Limit Level 30)
Damage Bonus: Up to 200 Damage Limit 6 Types
Damage Reduction:+15/50
Damage Resistance: 100/- Total resistance with up to 6 Types
Enhancement Bonus: +20
Immunity Damage: 250% with MAX 75% per / Limit 5 Types
Immunity Misc: 4 Types
Immunity Specific Spells: 10 Spells
Immunity Spell Schools: 2 Schools
Immunity Spell Levels: 6 or Lower
On Hit: DC26
On Hit: Cast Spell: No Limits
Regeneration: +10
Saving Throw Bonus: +20
Skill Bonus: +80 MAX+25/Per / Limit 5 Skills
Spell Resistance: 60
Turn Resistance: +20
Vampiric Regeneration: +10

Notice I called the above just a guideline. 
Our builders are free to enhance or expand upon these if their visionary item(s) require such uber exploration.

Genisys wrote...
What properties do you feel are too Uber, in your opinion?

Immunities are probably the top priority when I consider an item uber.  Spell and Damage Resistance would probably be the others I tend to watch for from our building team to ensure nothing is keeping players and NPCs from getting to the point where both take little damage and both stand toe-to-toe forever.  The boring dance is something we try to avoid.  Most other properties can be countered in someway.

Genisys wrote...
When does an items start to become uber (Too Powerful), in your Opinion?

For me, I'd have to say somewhere between normal and artifacts on the above scale.

Genisys wrote...
How can an item have more luster without being too powerful?

By luster, I am going to assume you mean more appealing?  In that case a well thought out item with properties that are enhanced by a lengthy description  seem to hold special meaning for myself.

Genisys wrote...
Where is the best place to put (for PCs to get) the items you create?

I have always thought that there is no one good spot.  If all the good items are on Bosses and none are for sale, your gold economy suffers as PCs will have hoards of gold and nothing to spend it on.  You also run the risk of those PCs who have a hard time defeating your bosses not being able to gather the goodies like other more well adjusted power-gamers.  My favorite spot though for items is hidden locations.  There ain;t nothing like walking along, having your search mode on and finding an artifact.  Very Cool!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Genisys]

               Wow Sharon, how do you manage a +15 AC item in your module?

Is that +15 for all 5 Armor Types?



And to:  Redunct

Are you saying +4 is uber in your book?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Genisys, 30 août 2010 - 02:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Sharona Curves]

               

Genisys wrote...

Is that +15 for all 5 Armor Types?

 
Yes.  It is not uncommon for characters to achieve AC's into the hundreds, however it's a false sense of security at best. *evil grin*

Genisys wrote
Wow Sharon, how do you manage a +15 AC item in your module?

Manage?  I let dynamic spawn scripting handle it for me.  With creatures like the Nosferatu , the Valkyrie , the Minotaur and soooo many others like them balance is managed via module setup rather than a guessing game.