To hak or not to hak?

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

_six wrote...

Anyone who cares more about getting more players than realizing their vision has already lost my interest.

What he said.

I'm going to go against the grain here. There's more than one way to share a vision. Many of us used NWN when it didn't have so many haks and CC options, and we still shared (a very good) vision. The quest, the story... that doesn't require a country road that looks nicer than the one in 1.69. The story still works. Also, I feel that if I've shared a vision but no one else is there to enjoy it, it's been something of a waste. I am -certainly- not saying I want to cater to the masses. I don't want to be another Amia or Arelith. But I want someone other than me to enjoy it, and since players literally make and shape the story in a good rp PW... it's pretty nessecary.

Another good point was made, those of us that posted whom are builders, cc makers, dms, etc.... we're really not the average player. I wish all players were more like the hardcore dedicated ones though. >.>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jenna WSI, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bard Simpson]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...

The quest, the story... that doesn't require a country road that looks nicer than the one in 1.69. The story still works.

I definitely agree; the story is of paramount importance to me. While I love beautiful tilesets, and other CC, a good story will always get me. It's like making movies -- an interesting tale with great special effects is something wonderful, but a movie made as an excuse to show special effects doesn't cut it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_B_Harrison]

               Those are very good points, Jen.

But my response would always be - why not have both?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               I want both, but we're cautious before adding on something that may hinder the average player from participating. If the average player has become comfortable with using CC, then there's no problem. Why not exclude those who aren't willing to use CC? Same reason as stated above, a world that needs players to grow and evolve should cater to those players.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jenna WSI, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               Woooohoo! This is what I call having a discussion! Vision... What a word...

You made my shameful only SP heart melt...

Sorry, just passing by but leaving immediately.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Karvon]

               As both a builder and player, I can appreciate both sides of the issue.



There are a lot of really nice haks out there, and a new look - and more options, often help fire the imagination of both players and builders.



I think if you're building a module for use in a DM campaign, or SP/MP mode, then a collection of hak's is going to meet less resistance as you already have your player base.



OTOH, a PW builders have to realize that the more haks you require, particularly if they are a customized collection, the less inclined folks are to DL and take a look. On those days when I have some time to kill and decide to visit some new PWs, unless I've read or heard a lot of good things about a PW requiring a lot of haks, I generally can't be bothered.  Worse yet are those places that give no indication in their server info haks are required and/or where to get them. Those definitely get skipped.



Furthermore, while I concur with the idea of building your own vision of things, that inevitably narrows the field of folks who may pay your work a visit.  In a sense, PWs are online art exhibits. Like tastes in art, tastes in NWN will vary widely.  What one will rave over another will despise, you will never satisfy all tastes.



As for myself, I build what I would enjoy playing, and replaying myself.  If some others happen to find it enjoyable, that's a bonus '>



Karvon
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               Personally I've always been a highly aesthetic person. To feel truly immersed in any setting the visuals and just as (or more) importantly the sound have to demonstrate exactly the emotions I am supposed to be feeling. The job of the writing is to create the emotional content of the module, but it's the look and sound and feel of the setting that have to hammer it home and make me feel it. Of course, there are some situations where this is more important than others, but generally I find the real depth of a story isn't always found explicitly in the writing but in how it directs you to interpret the setting and environment. Anyone who's written fiction knows that pathetic fallasy is most definitely FTW.

Which sort of not exactly brings me to the point that whether or not you decide on extra haks or not, I would most certainly reccomend using custom music. It can totally change the feel of any area or event in a game, and given that unlike haks its an entirely optional extra download for players I find it really sad that it's not used more.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               You mean an override, for the music? So it substitutes something in place of a bioware song?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...

You mean an override, for the music? So it substitutes something in place of a bioware song?

Well what I had in mind would be to simply use additional custom music in your music folder with a custom 2da in override when building the mod. If players don't have the music and 2da file in their respective folders they won't get any music, but there won't be any errors as such and they can still play fine.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               Excellent idea.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

TSMDude wrote...
So depends on what you are doing this for as in player numbers or because you want to do it.
And at this Stage in the NWN World I would say almost all of us are doing it because we love it.

Since as six pointed out, not everyone reads all the way down please rad my last line again.

Just wanted to point out again that this is dependant on every world. A better place is tot alk to PLAYERS than builders, admins, or scripters. Of course we would download it. Our whole team of Staff would most likely.

Yet the OP asked about normal players. And ins everal placeson tis forum people have wondered how to gte a player base. I know we dealt with low numbers and finally hit our spurts and started getting the love. Yet there was some anxious times in there and we lost several key Staff who have known returned as our numbers have risen.

It stinks to try and Play to an audience but building a module and building a PW are different in that aspect. A SP Module is designed to be played a few times and can have some really cool surprises. A PW can but sooner or later you have to change some things up or people will just know. It would be like running through the OC 30 times.

I am not saying one is easier or harder. Both have very distinct challenges. Some similiar and soem completly different and in the end it comes down to what you want to do and your Players want to do.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               One download, one game.
I'm just a SP player here, and kind of simple minded as well, so, hold on your fire.
I'ld go for the hak way because it's easier, truer, stronger, and when playing the module, as hak prevails on override as far as I know anything, the player is gonna play and watch the story just as the author wanted it to be. Otherwise, it's like reading Moby Dick re-written by Michael Jackson. Many recent modules I played chose going that way. The true way. The author's way. I'm sure it's more work, making sure you were able to check until the last minute on every most recent modder's creation which just came out, and use it in your own hak, but it's much more of a personal work at the end. And that's what I like about a book, someone else's universe. Talking to mine.
I'm out. Don't shoot. Sorry for the trouble.
Just some player's toughts.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...

...

There's a few new tilesets (worms, wild woods) that I've been drooling over.. but I'm not sure how much work the average player really wants to put into testing a server. Thanks for the imput.

Just thought I would point out that it's a tileset by "_Six" and not "Worm"... unless there is something I don't know and _Six is also Worm...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

jmlzemaggo wrote...
the player is gonna play and watch the story just as the author wanted it to be. [...] And that's what I like about a book, someone else's universe.

There lies the difference between SP mod and most PWs, jml. '>

Lord Sullivan wrote...
Just thought I would point out that
it's a tileset by "_Six" and not "Worm"... unless there is something I
don't know and _Six is also Worm...

I read that as an enumeration: a few new tilesets, e.g. (those by) worms, wild woods (by _six) etc.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...

_six wrote...

Anyone who cares more about getting more players than realizing their vision has already lost my interest.

I'm going to go against the grain here. There's more than one way to share a vision. Many of us used NWN when it didn't have so many haks and CC options, and we still shared (a very good) vision. The quest, the story... that doesn't require a country road that looks nicer than the one in 1.69. The story still works.

I understand what you're saying, but two points. One of them is that you did also write that...

There's a few new tilesets (worms, wild woods) that I've been drooling over.. but I'm not sure how much work the average player really wants to put into testing a server. Thanks for the imput.

So you've already established as part of the context of your question that at least to some extent, you're developing a vision that involves using better visual custom content. Otherwise, these tilesets wouldn't be making you drool and you wouldn't be thinking of using them. And to share a vision that involves better visuals, you need better visuals.

A perhaps more subtle point about storytelling, though, is that you can't really separate it from style -- which in turn you can't really separate from medium. Gaming is a visual, audible, and interactive medium, and to excel at telling a story in such a medium you have to make these all a part of the process. They're not just "eye-candy," and they're not separate from the process of telling a good story. Rather, good use of them is part and parcel of the process of telling a good story. It's not just a matter of getting fancier-looking ones, but choosing the right ones for the right context and scene. It's a matter of setting a mood and creating an immersive experience in which everything is chosen to work together to make the story vivid and compelling.

And sometimes, that does require a country road that looks better than the one in 1.69. Or at least, one that better creates the right kind of mood for what your story needs there and at that moment to create a more compelling experience. That's why I don't hesitate to look for a broad selection of quality custom content for my own work. I'm sure it scares off many players, since Sanctum of the Archmage is one of the hak-heaviest of the NWN SP mods. But I think of that as the price for being able to tell my story and to realize its vision in the best possible way: with quality sound, music and visuals, and custom scripting, carefully chosen and developed for the purpose.

Also, I feel that if I've shared a vision but no one else is there to enjoy it, it's been something of a waste. I am -certainly- not saying I want to cater to the masses. I don't want to be another Amia or Arelith. But I want someone other than me to enjoy it, and since players literally make and shape the story in a good rp PW... it's pretty nessecary.

That's a fair point, and I grant that things may be somewhat different for a PW than for an SP mod. But at least as I've seen it, I don't think that it's a tradeoff that has to be made. If your work develops a reputation for being worth the investment, players will come to you. But that can only happen if you set the bar high enough.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:43 .