Suggestions on forum names - your help is appreciated!

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               With apologies to SuperFly_2000, carried over from his thread where it didn't belong:

Suggestions for an unambiguos structure of the NwN forum
- constructive critiscm appreciated!

The NWN community has only just arrived here but I think we intend to stay as long as BioWare lets us (thank you, BioWare!). So this would be a good time to make this place our home again and also a home where we can invite new friends to (without them complaining about the mess they trip over in any room). That's why a few of us have been discussing the forum names and structure which admittedly weren't perfect on the old boards and are still not quite unambiguous on the new one. As Stanley Woo says, this OUR forum and if we don't speak up and tell BioWare how they could make it a better place for us, how would they know what we really need?

So here are some suggestions that have already been made and are open for discussion here:

olivier leroux wrote...
Instead of
NWN 1 Modules
NWN 1 Guilds & Registry: Ye Olde Tavern
NWN 1 Persistant Worlds & Multiplayer

we could have, for example
NWN 1 Single Player Modules
NWN 1 Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer: Ye Olde Tavern
NWN 1 Server Admin
(and maybe, if still desired, NWN 1 Guilds).

That way, we'd keep "Ye Olde Tavern" as what it was on the old board, mainly a place to advertise your PW and find participants for multiplayer campaigns while at the same time making it clear for newcomers also in
the title that it's for PW & MP. Noone who can read would have an excuse for posting about these in General Discussion or Modules anymore. And we'd get "Server Admin" back.

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Yep, that seems like the best option for this general discussion.

Shia Luck wrote...
I think this is an admirable suggestion but would firstly go for the inclusion of another forum for Server Admin. i think that is an important forum to have and yet I'd like to see one devoted to the guilds and a place where people can announce special community things/events etc.

My suggested change to oliver's suggestion is that the module forum is not renamed to single player modules as many NWVault modules are SP/MP both and MP in this sense means a few friends playing them together. i think that fits better within the concept of a module forum than it does in a PW forum. I also think totally dropping the 'Ye Olde Tavern' name is going to make things a lot easier also.  In Other words:

NWN Modules
NWN Persistent Worlds
NWN Server Admin
NWN Guilds

Have fun [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Helekanalaith wrote...
I  vote +1 on Shia Luck for forum categorizer! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

A structure such as this would immediately point the players towards the appropriate forums. And while add it I would also make some changes to the other categories, ensuring a better overview of the entire NWN1 section.

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Modules
NWN Persistent Worlds
NWN Server Admin
NWN Guilds
NWN Builders: Toolset
NWN Builders: Scripting
NWN Builders: Custom Content
NWN Builders: Tools and Plugins
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

In this example NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning) would house all the relevant discussions for the official campaigns and the premium modules.

KooKoo88 wrote...
I vote +2 . . .   Hmmm, that makes a total of +3 I think.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png cuz I'm magic and cast magic vote!

B_Harrison wrote...

Agreed, this would be perfect (and much easier on the eye).

AndarianTD wrote...

I'm going to dissent from the consensus and recommend the following, which is a combination of several other suggestions:

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Single Player Modules
NWN Persistent Worlds & Multiplayer: Ye Olde Tavern
NWN Server Admin
NWN Guilds
NWN Builders: Toolset
NWN Builders: Scripting
NWN Builders: Custom Content
NWN Builders: Tools and Plugins
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

Salient points:

• I think the NWN forums should continue to be referred to as "NWN", and not as "NWN 1." I really dislike the idea of renaming the original NWN after the fact. It's NWN, and NWN2 is NWN2.
• I would recommend that the modules forum be specifically identified as a forum for Single Player. In practice, that's what it's traditionally been for. MP modules are few, and if they have to go somewhere I think they have
  
  much more in common with PWs than SP mods.

As Bannor put it, [EDIT OL: Actually it's me who's quoted here but it's still a good point! ]

That way, we'd keep "Ye Olde Tavern" as what it was on the old board, mainly a place to advertise your PW and find participants for multiplayer campaigns while at the same time making it clear for newcomers also in
the title that it's for PW & MP. Noone who can read would have an excuse for posting about these in General Discussion or Modules anymore. And we'd get "Server Admin" back.

Helekanalaith wrote...
Add to that the (forgotten) Dungeon Masters category and we should have this:

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Singleplayer Modules
NWN Multiplayer Modules and Persistent Worlds (Ye New Tavern)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Toolset and Scripting
NWN Custom Content and Tools Development
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

Dropping the builders tag makes sense, as there's no tag for players either. I took out the guilds section too as I'm not entirely sure it serves a purpose there. And look, we have "Ye New Tavern" to reflect the move over to the SocialNetwork and the shift in the purpose of this category.

Yes, I thought that one through. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Drewskie wrote...
Close to perfect now though I'd maybe re-name dungeon master's realm "DM Client", since that's really what it is.

SHOVA wrote...

Server admin and Dungeon Master could be joined into one. While all DMs are not server admins, nearly all server admins are DMs. perhaps it could be called Multiplayer admin and Dming.

Drewskie wrote...
I don't think I'd go that far.  With server admin you will get into hardware topics, OS topics (Linux and such), that should remain seperate from all else...

(In a hurry I copied and pasted the parts of the discussion I thought most relevant, to keep it as clear as possible. Let me know if you think I left something important out and please cut me some slack if it was your post - it 's not my intention to suppress any opinions, I welcome an open discussion here.)

'>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               One other point made by myself is that the NWN modules forum should include both SP and MP capable modules, but not PWs, as they should have their own forum. The major reason for this is that in a discussion of such a module the focus will be the module itself and the only MP aspect that really comes into it is whether or not the module works in MP. Anything else contributed to a thread would be just the same as if an SP player contributed it.



AndarianTD feels that the social aspect of any kind of MP play creates a dividing line between SP modules and MP modules and PWs and so the NWN modules forum should be the NWN Single Player Modules forum and all MP play should be grouped together.



(I hope I have summarised you correctly there AndarianTD. I didn't quote because in my next post I will quote you to argue against you soooo hopefully the summary works acceptably for you? Please correct me if it doesn't. '>  )
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shia Luck]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

I'm also not sure that fairly rare MP/SP hybrid mods like Aielund and
Citadel provide much of a counter-example. Since they're also SP mods,
there's no reason that someone who played them in MP shouldn't be able
to contribute to discussion about them in an SP modules forum.

But this is exactly my reasoning as to why modules which are both MP and SP should be grouped together. in any discussion we will be talking about the module, not the DMing or the PW staff, not the server connection speeds, not the number of players on at any one time, not the level of RP required, not the state of the forums etc.

With your system, Citadel would be included in the module forum as it was originally conceived as SP with MP possibilities, yet Aielund would be in the MP & PW forum because it was designed around a party of 3, yet I imagine the vast majority of people who have played Aielund did so in SP.

AndarianTD wrote...
In several years of participation on the NWN Modules forum (my regular
"hangout" on the Bioboards), I rarely remember discussion of playing
modules in MP as opposed to SP ever coming up at all. It's just not
where the focus of most people who play SP mods seems to be, most of
whom I think do not play NWN MP.

I agree. But I have two points there. The first is the 'MP as opposed to SP ' discussion didn't happen in the years it has been called the 'Modules' forum, which I think supports my point in that MP/SP modules do live quite happily together with SP only modules and there's no need to change the name, and the second is that it is not an 'as opposed to' discussion. In discussing a module like this (e.g. Aielund) both the MP and SP player will be discussing the module.

Thoughts?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Shia Luck, 22 juillet 2010 - 04:38 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               Shia: that's basically a fair summary of my thoughts. My view of the ideal solution would be to give non-PW MP-only modules their own forum, but I think there's likely going to be a limit on how many separate forums the admins are willing to set up.

I definitely see your point about the differences between PWs and MP mods. I think it's fair to say the MP mods are similar to and different from both PWs and SP mods, but in different respects that are likely to have differing degrees of significance to different kinds of players. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

Shia Luck wrote...

But this is exactly my reasoning as to why modules which are both MP and SP should be grouped together. in any discussion we will be talking about the module, not the DMing or the PW staff, not the server connection speeds, not the number of players on at any one time, not the level of RP required, not the state of the forums etc.

With your system, Citadel would be included in the module forum as it was originally conceived as SP with MP possibilities, yet Aielund would be in the MP & PW forum because it was designed around a party of 3...

Not at all. I agree with you that modules that are both SP and MP should be grouped together. Aielund is listed as "SP or MP," and consequently I don't see a reason why discussion of it would not be fully appropriate in an SP modules forum. The fact that it's balanced for a party of three only says that in SP you should take two of the companions.

...yet I imagine the vast majority of people who have played Aielund did so in SP.

Isn't that why discussion of it would be appropriate in an SP modules forum?

I agree. But I have two points there. The first is the 'MP as opposed to SP ' discussion didn't happen in the years it has been called the 'Modules' forum, which I think supports my point in that MP/SP modules do live quite happily together with SP only modules and there's no need to change the name, and the second is that it is not an 'as opposed to' discussion. In discussing a module like this (e.g. Aielund) both the MP and SP player will be discussing the module.

Thoughts?

I think that discussion of Aielund (or any other module that isn't MP only) would be appropriate in an SP modules forum. Perhaps I should clarify that I'm suggesting the name "Single Player Modules" for the forum, not "Single-Player Only Modules." To the extent that you're discussing aspects of the module shared in common between both SP and MP, there's no reason why SP-only and SP/MP players wouldn't both be able to participate in it. What I'm talking about are basically MP-Only or DM'd mods, or aspects of an SP/MP module that are of interest only to MP players (such as there may be).

In the end this isn't an issue that I would press too strongly on. But I did want to make a case for the fact that the SP/MP divide is more significant for some players than the preceding discussion had seemed to indicate.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               Good to see it as NWN and not NWN1. I do not own a copy of NWN1..



What is the current list that needs votes?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               As Stanley Woo pointed out in the other threads we should probably move this topic to the social.bioware.com Site Help forum before it gets locked down, too.

I'll try a short summary and a synthesis of the suggestions first, in order to find a version that's more or less based on common consent so we can better present our suggestion to BioWare before the thread is moved.

Because this seems important to some, I'll leave the "1" out of "NWN 1" but be aware that the old boards also listed the game as NWN 1 and that on these forums they also call "Mass Effect" "Mass Effect 1" and "Baldur's Gate" "Baldur's Gate 1" although that's not what's written on the games' covers. You might argue that it's different with NWN because NWN2 was not created by BioWare and because you don't consider it a true successor but the fact remains that BioWare considers it part of its legacy otherwise they wouldn't have invited its community over to BSN. So I think it's highly unlikely that "NWN 1" is going to change into "NWN" here and if we keep insisting on that we might distract from the (admittedly IMHO) more significant suggestions.

I also doubt that BioWare will want to combine their three official Campaigns into one forum but we can try to suggest it.

So, what do you think about this structure?

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Campaigns (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Modules Discussion
NWN Ye Olde Tavern: Persistent Worlds, Guilds & Multiplayer
NWN Builders - Toolset
NWN Builders - Scripting
NWN Custom Content, Tools and Community Expansion Pack (CEP)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Technical Support (Self-help for all versions and expansions) 

In this proposal "Tools and Plugin Developers" was moved to "Custom Content" in order to make room for a forum "Server Admin" without the need to increase the total amount of NWN forums. The suggestion to combine tools and CC is not my own but was discussed and seconded by ChaosInTwilight, Ben Harrison, _six and Tarot Redhand, and so far noone has protested against it.

Regarding SP/MP/PW, I went for a compromise, leaving the Single Player out of Modules but added "Discussion" again and at the same time stressing the "Tavern" and including "Multiplayer" and "Guilds" there. The idea behind it is that "Modules Discussion" is for discussing stand-alone modules only, while "Ye Olde Tavern" is for all things that revolve around the social aspects of the game. Multiplayer could be part of both forums, depending on the question if you're interested in a particular MP module (that's similar in design to SP modules) or in finding players and DMs to play a module with. So "Modules Discussion" doesn't exclude Multiplayer but doesn't explicitly invite it either, the focus would stay on modules and not on SP or MP communities.

Oh, and we could also drop the "Builders" tag before Toolset and Scripting like Helekanalaith suggested (sorry, missed that one) and combine "Toolset" and "Scripting" into "Toolset and Scripting" but maybe there'd no need to further decrease the number of forums and I haven't read a lot of opinions on that yet. I could imagine some scripter being averse to it because it would make finding scripts harder.

Any last thoughts before the move to Site Help?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 23 juillet 2010 - 12:36 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_B_Harrison]

               Just to be clear, what I agreed with/seconded was Helekanalaith's list (which I think he revised later in the thread):

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Modules
NWN Persistent Worlds
NWN Server Admin
NWN Guilds
NWN Builders: Toolset
NWN Builders: Scripting
NWN Builders: Custom Content
NWN Builders: Tools and Plugins
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

I'm not sure I like the idea of the CC forum (the only one I cared about) becoming a 3rd party tools forum and a CEP forum. I'm really not concerned either way, though, so there's no need to include my name in any agreement/opposition when you send it BioWare's way.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par B_Harrison, 23 juillet 2010 - 12:36 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I think there should be a new forum topic, NWN Players Corner, A place to talk about character Builds, Party Tatics, Solo Tatics, Ad the like.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

B_Harrison wrote...
I'm really not concerned either way, though, so there's no need to include my name in any agreement/opposition when you send it BioWare's way.

Point taken, but I wasn't going to mention any names to BioWare. This is just between us, to get an idea if and how many community members agree with the suggestions. And I was just deducting from your post in the link above where you agreed with ChaosInTwilight's presumption the "Tools" forum might not be necessary anymore and you didn't talk about CEP there. I'm aware that the inclusion of CEP into CC is not uncontroversial and it's not my idea either. As far as I'm concerned, I'd happily include a separate CEP forum in the suggestion.

But it's really hard to find the best solution and determine majorities when only a small part of the community is even taking part in the discussion and still less are willing to compromise. I don't know, I'm beginning to wonder why I even bother and invest my time if in the end noone wants anything to do with it and it will look as if I'm the only one who cares and the suggestions are all my own...

To tell you the truth I feel a bit resigned right now. '>

If I'm not the only one who cares surely someone else will take over from here, if not I guess it wasn't all that important. *shrugs*
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Campaigns (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Modules Discussion
NWN Ye Olde Tavern: Persistent Worlds, Guilds & Multiplayer
NWN Builders - Toolset
NWN Builders - Scripting
NWN Custom Content and Tools
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN ]Server Admin
NWN Technical Support (Self-help for all versions and expansions) 


I like it like this with the section Custom Content and Tools having a Sticky section for CEP Help and CEP Updates. I think it would go a long way to making things easier in the transtion.

Thanks oliver for doing this. And spelling Campaigns right.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par TSMDude, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               hmm just my humble comments
Persistant world ARE modules, so why separating them from modules?
Guilds are no longer relevant with all the social tools we have now (Groups, projects, blogs etc)
Toolset and scripting could go together
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jez_fr, 23 juillet 2010 - 04:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               

olivier leroux wrote...

B_Harrison wrote...
I'm really not concerned either way, though, so there's no need to include my name in any agreement/opposition when you send it BioWare's way.

Point taken, but I wasn't going to mention any names to BioWare. This is just between us, to get an idea if and how many community members agree with the suggestions. And I was just deducting from your post in the link above where you agreed with ChaosInTwilight's presumption the "Tools" forum might not be necessary anymore and you didn't talk about CEP there. I'm aware that the inclusion of CEP into CC is not uncontroversial and it's not my idea either. As far as I'm concerned, I'd happily include a separate CEP forum in the suggestion.

But it's really hard to find the best solution and determine majorities when only a small part of the community is even taking part in the discussion and still less are willing to compromise. I don't know, I'm beginning to wonder why I even bother and invest my time if in the end noone wants anything to do with it and it will look as if I'm the only one who cares and the suggestions are all my own...

To tell you the truth I feel a bit resigned right now. '>

If I'm not the only one who cares surely someone else will take over from here, if not I guess it wasn't all that important. *shrugs*

Take it easy Olivier =)
I do care about that, but that's not THAT important. Our migration is still very new, I bet many interested people still aren't aware of the move, and the topic has only 1 day. Wait a little, give the mummies time to unstick from their old crypts and move here =)
In the worst case, we can work with what it is, it just won't be perfect. No big deal '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               Well, it's actually been discussed for fives days or so and this thread is only the continuation of the discussion. I admit it's not a long time but the thing is this thread will probably be locked down very soon, since Stanley Woo said discussions like this are better suited for social.bioware.com Site Help. I'm doubtful that more NWN community members will take part in the discussion once it's migrated there where most won't notice it anymore.

Be that as it may, I've somehow run out of steam and right now I don't feel like pursueing this any further. I prefer to focus my energy on projects where I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm most probably overreacting but that just goes to show I took this matter too seriously.
'>

I'm still supporting any endeavours to make the forum names less ambiguos but I won't be the one to start a new thread about it. Anyway, thank you for your kind words, Jez and TSMDude!
'>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Helekanalaith wrote...
Add to that the (forgotten) Dungeon Masters
category and we should have this:

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Singleplayer Modules
NWN Multiplayer Modules and Persistent
Worlds (Ye New Tavern)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Toolset and Scripting
NWN Custom Content and Tools
Development
NWN
Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

+1
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 23 juillet 2010 - 06:03 .