Return of the freezing creatures!

[Legacy_Jedijax]

               For those of you who don't know of my predicament, here's a recap: Whenever a creature spawns (hostile or otherwise) my NWN freeze-frames for a moment. The freezing period lasts longer when there are lots of creatures. Even if the creatures are already spawned, when my character moves so they go out of sight completely, as they get into sight again, there's a small fraction of the freezing.

I've made extensive tests without haks and overrides, I've tried every trick mentioned in the forums regarding Windows 7, I re-thermalized my CPU and GPU, and prayed... a lot...

Anyway, I came to the conclusion it was the crappy ATI 3870 videocard I had, so I sold my soul and a testicle in order to get me a MSI Nvidia GTS250 Twin Frozr, probably the best version of such a model... AND THE FRAKING FREEZE CONTINUES!!!

During my tests, though the addition of haks and override tends to make the freezing more obvious, I discovered a clean install of NWN still freezes, so it most probably has nothing to do with haks, overrides, or even graphic settings. I disabled my Creative Soundblaster card, canceled every background applications and services, but the freezing just won't go away.

I know many posters have tried to help me in the past, but I beg you, with muy muy hummility... could anyone give me an "out of the box" fix? I've tried everything people have recommended up to now, but nothing seems to work.... I mean it, please... I beg you...

I run a 2.4 gigs Intel quad core duo extreme system, with the aforementioned, new, MSI Nvidia GTS250 Twin Frozr edition 1 gig videocard, on a P5E3 Asus motherboard and dual channeled 2 gigs of DDR3 RAM in two cards.

ANY insight will be most appreciated. I'm sorry to post this again, but I'm desperate!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               I believe I have an idea of what your talking about.

My system is similar to yours except I have a dual core as oppose to a Quad
and I have a ATI HD 4870.

When I used to have an older system with a low end gaming graphic card, the issue
you have used to be quite more noticable, but now it is rare in my case and the duration
is much quicker then it use to be.

I don't believe there is a real way around it, but I can tell you what I noticed that has help
suppress it as much as possible through my own experience.

1- I always make sure that all my harddrives partitions are defraged
2- I always have two harddrives, one as the main dirve that contains the OS install
    and one for everything else such as Programs/Applications/Games and personal files, etc...
    Basically, I hardly install any programs on the main drive's windows "\\Program Files" directory
    but instead install them in a dedicated partition on the second drive.
3- I make sure that I purchase high performace harddrives

This has helped me get rid of that issue 99% and I also noticed an increase in performance
for a number of other applications and games. But note that my ATI HD 4870 is a great performing
card also.

I doubt that your suffering from a Multi-CPU issue where one has to set CPU affinity, but it's
worth looking in to. In my case I have a Dula-Core and never ajust affinity as I check it out
once with no noticable difference in performance.

The rare cases that it still occurs in my case is when there quite a bit happening in my screen
and I'm also in a lower view angle that brings more into view OR very far up that again, brings
more in to view. But it is extremly rare in my case.

I believe that this happens as there is probably a few harddrive reads happening at the same time
or extremly quickly one after the other at that moment.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Calvinthesneak]

               I trust you've used the MaxMemorySetting in [Game Options] in your nwnplayer.ini?

That helps for one.

Generally I've found such lag is actually the conversion of ASCII MDL's to BINARY MDL's. Graphics speed and a quick HDD and good RAM help. You may be bottlenecking you though.

Polycounts and details of custom models has increased over time, more to render.

For an Nvidia card, in the control panel, make sure Extension Limit is: ON and Threaded Optimization is OFF
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Calvinthesneak, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Balduvard]

               I have always figured that this has been a "loading into memory" issue associated with either the speed at which something is being read from (the speed the hard drive accesses data at) or the speed at which something is being read into (either video or system memory). I get this issue on my computer that runs a X800XL with an AMD 3200XP+, but it is mostly pronounced in large spawns (8-12 creatures with parties of 6-10 players running full buff visual effects).  Out of everything, I find that anything involving a horse model is absolutely terrible for this issue (as FunkySwerve has put it, they're polybombs).



What Lord Sullivan has mentioned in this regard seems fitting: the speed at which your hard drive can access the data could translate into the speed with which your game can use the data that is read. After considering this and the fact that my computer is old enough to still be running PATA/133 drives that are probably in need of some defragging again, such a source of slowdown would not come as surprising to me.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               For my own edification (another ATI user), when you guys run into these potential read problems, do you automatically swap in a spare set of cables?  I've already purchased a brand new set that were supposedly ultra ultra high-speed and then resorted back to the originals when the latency became unbearable.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:40 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jedijax]

               Wow, lots of messages!

Lord Sullivan: I don't remember if it was you or Inayity, but someone mentioned something about i/o transit from and to  hdd, which actually made sense to me, although he/you wouldn't discuss it any further. Regarding the defrag options, I'm on Windows 7 32 bits, which actually takes care of such issues, and even then, I run analysis for defrag regularly, only to find there is no need for such according to the Auslogiks tool. On the other hand, I had the exact same idea regarding two HDD, one ofr system and one for programs, but since NWN was actually THE ONLY program installed in one of the HD's and it still lagged, well, I gave up on the idea, as configuring certain programs to work correctly in a separate disc from the one running the system is a pain, and I have noticed no real improvement in performance, on any of the PC's I've had/upgraded. Both my HDD's are Seagate running at 7800 revs, quite the standard, and the earlier ones were exactly the same brand and speed, although their capacity was smaller. Are you talking 10000 revs or SSD's?
The multi-thread thingie doesn't seem to affect me, though I have the affinity at -2 just in case. I'm presently defragging the disk with the game, just in case...

Calvin: Indeed, I included all of the suggestions you made in my previous thread, but the added line to the ini didn't change a thing. Although I think you may be right regarding the ASCII conversion, it still doesn't explain why the game freezes even when the override is empty and I use no haks. I'm thinking about turning all of my stuff into binaries... as painful and long as it may be, but the fact remains, the game freezes in a clean install...
Lord Sullivan seems to lean towards the HDD's being the problem, but you also mention RAM; do you think 2 gigs DDR3 isn't enough? Should I upgrade to 4? I would like to get such clear, seeing as I already cried my heart out just for the GTS 250 (Down here, I had to cough up about 300 dollars for it... yep, damnable country...), and I would just suicide if I had to give my other testicle to get another 2 gigs of RAM or (God preserve me!) a 10000 revs HDD or a Solid State.
I have the Threaded Optimization OFF in the control panel, but the Extension Limit you mention I can't find; where is it?

(To be continued...)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jedijax, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jedijax]

               Balduvard: A most insightful post; I know exactly what you mean, and something I forgot to mention is the freezing has reduced since I changed the ATI 3870 for the GTS 250, but not that much, and even though I get about 60 fps in non-populated areas, when there are many characters present, it drops to the same 16-21 fps it used to in the older videocard. The freezing seems to be slightly shorter when creatures come into view, rather than when they spawn, but having more than 5 creatures spawning at once makes it quite apparent!
So, you lean towards thinking this is mainly a Hard Drive issue?


Update: I defragmented and optimized the disks, but nothing changed.
I'm guessing we're actually coming to something here: Is it the card? Is it the RAM? Is it the HDD?... and where the hell have the Nvidia 200 series gone to? By the time I get desperate enough to sell my kidneys to get a GTX 295 there will be none left!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jedijax, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               Well, what I've said is according to my personal experience on the matter, but I can't say for sure that the
harddrive(s) is/are the issue.

And no, I'm not suggesting 10000 RPM harddrive nor SSDs, I'm mainly talking about common 7200 RPM
harddrives as there are different models where performance differ. For instance, one of my harddrives is
a Seagate 320 Gb 7200 rpm 16 Mb cache which was at one time the only single harddrive in my PC and
the issue you speak was noticeable and happened quite regularly, but that harddrive was the cheapest
one of the 320 GB models from Seagate at the time. Now a few months ago I purchased another Seagate
of 160 GB and still the cheapest of their models but of their most recent tech though which they improved
a bit on.

That however, does not mean it's a whole lot better then the previous one, but I use it as the OS harddrive.
As a second Harddrive, I purchased a Western Digital Caviar Black 500 Gb 7200 rpm which is Western Digitals
performance series harddrives. The combination of the two which perform rather well greatly ensures
a stable performance ratio.

I have a similar setup in another computer with both Seagates 160 Gb and 320 Gb, the 320 being that
older harddrive a previously mentioned as the "Apps" Harddirve. That PC also has a NVidia 9800 GT ECO
I recently purchased brand new and again, that issue has not been present as of yet as I played for about
30 minutes or so when I installed the 9800 GT to have a feel of the performance of that card.

So, I'm not sure what else it could be. NOTE that if one of your harddrives is degrading in performance
can also be a possible cause. Other then that. I'm confident you don't need more RAM as 2GB
is more then enough for NWN in particular but even for the new ****e... I know that I have no RAM
size/quantity problem with any application to this day whit anything that is the latest.

As a last note... Sure having a great performance graphic card helps, but good/high performance
harddrive(s )is also important, but that is always with the consideration that nothing else in a system as developed issues, such as the motherboard or any component on it OR  the CPU, the RAM, the PSU...

Out of curiousity, how big is your monitor and at what resolution are you playing?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lord Sullivan, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Q: Any creature, or just mounted/from CEP one? Some monsters have too much polygons and this behaviour is actually normal.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               

Jedijax wrote...
The multi-thread thingie doesn't seem to affect me, though I have the affinity at -2 just in case. I'm presently defragging the disk with the game, just in case...

-2 disable this feature, so its not surprising it doesn't do anything '>
Try with a value of 0 (means only 1 cpu) instead, or 255 (like mine, don't ask why lol)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jedijax]

               Lord Sullivan: Completely agree with you. Somehow, it makes sense the issue may be HDD related, specially since the freezing is particularly limited to creatures or, as I have recently noted, ITEMS IN CONTAINERS. Whenever I open a chest for the first time, or even the inventory, just as I begin playing, the same freezing occurs. It stands to reason, since there are practically no graphics or polygons involved, the issue is related to data transmission, most probably from disk transit. Actually, the first disk configuration you mentioned is pretty similar to mine, so perhaps such is the issue, although I bought the HDD's about six months ago, the main one having 468 gigs; the other one really doesn't matter, since it is now empty, and I don't use it yet for the reasons I previously mentioned.
The monitor in which I first noticed the problem was a 17" HP that supported the usual 75 htz, but right now I'm on a Samsung LCD, since aside from playing NWN, the PC is my ultimate media center. Thing is, the only app giving me any trouble is, yes, my beloved NWN 1. I mean, NWN 2 (which I just can't seem to like, even after all these years of trying) runs smoothly with every graphic option maxed out, the Nvidia control panel even overriding some of them, going beyond the game's capabilities...

ShadoOw: It's every creature, although Inayiti some time ago actually showed me most simple models like the old woman/man and the beggar do not present any issues, which is baffling, 'cause if the problem were the polygon count and detail of models, there would be no freezing on a clean install when other creature types come into view. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, this problem wasn't present when I first played the game, many years ago, it was something that came unexpectedly about two years ago, and I don't know what could have caused it.

Jez_fr: Actually I've played at "0" value for multi-thread affinity, and -1, and 1, and 2, but I find no significant change. However, I haven't tried the 255 you mentioned... gonna try it right now!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jedijax, 18 novembre 2010 - 07:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               Well you can try 0 to 3, each number represent one of your CPU. Maybe the 1st is faulty and not the others. Worth a try anyways.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jez_fr, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:05 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jedijax]

                I tried the 255 value and things got weird, or rather slow. The only value I haven't tried is 3, so I guess that's the last choice regarding the affinity setting.

Regarding the HDD some of us are suspecting of being the problem, here are the specs, so any insight on this particular woud be appreciated.

ST3500418AS ATA Device
    Manufacturer    Seagate
    Form Factor    3.5"
    SATA type    SATA-II 3.0Gb/s
    Device type    Fixed
    ATA Standard    ATA8-ACS
    48-bit LBA    Supported
    Serial Number    5VM583X8
    Interface    SATA
    Capacity    488GB
    Real size    500,107,862,016 bytes
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jedijax, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:22 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               If you don't have issue with other softwares, I doubt thats a hardware issue.

My personal guess is it's a graphic driver issue, but since you have not much choice or things to do about drivers, I would try the following:

- Run DXdiag (Ctrl + R, type dxdiag on Seven), and see if it shows any errors, look at all drivers and dll dates, see if some does not seem way too old, run all tests. You can also post the dxdiag here, another pair of eyes can help. (DXdiag is the first thing to do when running into game's trouble)



If that doesn't show anything, what *I* would do is the following:

- get your graphic and audio drivers in WHQL version, get a fresh Direct X (since you're on Seven there may also be DirectX updates that insures compatibility with older DX version, might help), get also .Net framework 1.0, 2.0, and 3.5 (not just the last one).



- unplug from internet (don't forget this one)

- disable windows auto restore features (or other software you may have that does that)

- disable your anti virus or anti malware

(all this is to insure nothing will somehow mess with your software updating)



Now, restart in Safe Mode (hit F8 just before windows loading screen), and remember to restart in Safe Mode everytime you will restart ( I know that's pain) until update is completed.



In that order, do the following:

- uninstall all .Net framework, then install the fresh ones.

- uninstall Dirext X, and then install the fresh one and its eventual add-on

- uninstall the graphic card and audio drivers, restart in safe mode, and install the new ones.



Restart windows, configure your desktop as usual.

Before runing NWN, run its Config utility.

Run NWN and see nothing changed lol. No I'm kidding, until you've done all that, you can't be sure it isn't a driver related issue, so just be a real jedi and do it. At the very least, your Windows will be cleaner '>



               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               Jez_fr

It can't be a graphic driver issue as the issue the OP is talking about as to do with "Script firing"

As in "When a player character steps in a encounter trigger that spawn creatures" and also in is case
as he/she mentioned "When the player character opens a chest that spawns Items in the chest (On Open script)". It's always when a script is fired.

Along the years I've accepted that NWN is just coded this way, but having higher performing
computer hardware does help with this. For instance, on one of my older socket 478 pentium 4 1.7 Ghz with ATI 9200SE 128 MB AGP 8X and 384 MB of Rambus memory, this issue was regular
and common. You can use the beginning of Chapter 2 of the NWN OC when you first open the door
of the room your start in that spawns a good inventory of NPCs in the next room and you'll probably
have an idea of the issue discussed here.

For me now, that Chapter 2 beginning is whole lot smoother and NPCs spawn in with very little
hesitation and/or resistance, but I can still notice a little that the issue is still present in that split
second but its nothing to complain about in my case.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lord Sullivan, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:26 .