Choosing the right Toolset?

[Legacy_CPK87]

               Hey there,

I posted this on the NWN2 forum, but thought it might be a good idea to put it here as well to hear from both communities.

I'll start by introducing myself;  I am finishing grad school as a Level Designer - I've worked in various editors/engines including Skyrim Creation Kit, Unreal Editor 3, Gears of War Editor, UDK, and HL2 Source.  I used to play NWN1 around 10 years ago (loved the PWs especially), so I am very familiar with the game.  I did mess around in the Toolset a little as well, although I never got very deep into it.  On the other hand, I've never played NWN2.  I have done a fair amount of research on the two different Toolsets, and I seem to have gathered the following info on them (please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, or add anything else I ought to know about them to the list):

- NWN2 Toolset has most of what NWN1 had, plus a bit more
- NWN2 Toolset has a steeper learning curve than NWN1
- NWN2 looks better graphically
- NWN2 is poorly optimized (resource hog, laggy) - has this been improved?
- NWN1 has better animation sets
- NWN2 has poor camera controls, although it seems there are ways to improve them
- NWN1 seems to have a larger developer community
- NWN2 has more advanced AI
- NWN2 has a terrain editor, whereas NWN1 only has tile sets


For my final project, I would like to work in one of the NWN toolsets.  I'm looking to create just a short (around 15-30 minute) level/quest and hope to do some of my own scripting/systems design to make it unique from the standard NWN campaigns.  However, I consider myself pretty much a newbie in both (again, never even touched NWN2 and only scraped the surface of NWN1's Toolset).  

Which Toolset, in your opinions, is best overall for designing a level?  Scripting?  Which one is more flexible for modifying existing systems such as items, stats, spells/feats/skills, characters/enemies, adding new mechanics, etc.?  Are there any other facts about either editor that I ought to know before making a decision?  

I realize that I'm asking this in the NWN1 forum, but please be objective in your responses, as I am more interested in the facts than personal preferences (although both are welcome '>).  Thanks in advance!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par CPK87, 18 janvier 2014 - 11:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               I'd say your assessment is pretty accurate.

Although NWN has older graphics out of the box, it's much easier to build an area, and the community has made a huge amount of custom artwork and scripts, often to very high standards. For build speed and choice of terrain / creatures / placeables / gameplay, it's hard to beat.

Another major reason for NWN's enduring popularity is multiplayer.

Good luck with your project - whichever you choose, you'll find the community here helpful.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               Hmmm, sneaky. Asking the exact same thing (with minor adjustments for specific thread) in both NwN and NwN2 threads. (). Now I may surprise you by saying, it depends. Some of it will come down to personal preference. But there is also the matter of how long before you have to hand in your fully documented project and how many hours do you plan on devoting to this. The answers to these two questions are probably the most important ones you need to answer. This is because NwN is a lot easier to learn. Given that you have limited time to build in, you have to ask yourself if you have enough time to build what you want in NwN2 or not.

As it is well past midnight here in the UK as I write this, I will get back to this thread in the morning with a couple of links for you if you are interested.

TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Given that this is a project for a class and your familiarity with the NWN1 Toolset, I'd advise to stick to that. While your assessment of both toolsets is pretty accurate, NWN2 can be a real monster to figure out. I could never get the hang of it and I've been at this sort of stuff virtually nonstop for 10 years. This being said, if I'm not mistaken, the industry has largely moved away from tileset-based and embraced full-blown terrain editors - you might be better off career-wise working with NWN2.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ShadowM]

               

CPK87 wrote...

Hey there,

I posted this on the NWN2 forum, but thought it might be a good idea to put it here as well to hear from both communities.

I'll start by introducing myself;  I am finishing grad school as a Level Designer - I've worked in various editors/engines including Skyrim Creation Kit, Unreal Editor 3, Gears of War Editor, UDK, and HL2 Source.  I used to play NWN1 around 10 years ago (loved the PWs especially), so I am very familiar with the game.  I did mess around in the Toolset a little as well, although I never got very deep into it.  On the other hand, I've never played NWN2.  I have done a fair amount of research on the two different Toolsets, and I seem to have gathered the following info on them (please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, or add anything else I ought to know about them to the list):

- NWN2 Toolset has most of what NWN1 had, plus a bit more
- NWN2 Toolset has a steeper learning curve than NWN1
- NWN2 looks better graphically
- NWN2 is poorly optimized (resource hog, laggy) - has this been improved?
- NWN1 has better animation sets
- NWN2 has poor camera controls, although it seems there are ways to improve them
- NWN1 seems to have a larger developer community
- NWN2 has more advanced AI
- NWN2 has a terrain editor, whereas NWN1 only has tile sets


For my final project, I would like to work in one of the NWN toolsets.  I'm looking to create just a short (around 15-30 minute) level/quest and hope to do some of my own scripting/systems design to make it unique from the standard NWN campaigns.  However, I consider myself pretty much a newbie in both (again, never even touched NWN2 and only scraped the surface of NWN1's Toolset).  

Which Toolset, in your opinions, is best overall for designing a level?  Scripting?  Which one is more flexible for modifying existing systems such as items, stats, spells/feats/skills, characters/enemies, adding new mechanics, etc.?  Are there any other facts about either editor that I ought to know before making a decision?  

I realize that I'm asking this in the NWN1 forum, but please be objective in your responses, as I am more interested in the facts than personal preferences (although both are welcome '>).  Thanks in advance!

Let see go over each point.
- NWN2 Toolset has most of what NWN1 had, plus a bit more
I think it actually reverse that, nwn2 toolset is waiting on functions still already included in NWN1 toolset
toolset includes scripting and includes mounting, cloaks. I talking out of the box not community functions like nwnx etc..

- NWN2 Toolset has a steeper learning curve than NWN1
I think people mix up steeper learning curve here with lousy interface / setup. I have both toolsets and found out how to work with everything in NWN2 toolset inside a week, but found placement and setup a pain in the butt as did many others. This include scripting boxes, item, monster, placable info boxes all lousy how they set it up. If you have two monitor setup this will help. NWN1 toolset has you locked to one screen in some of the properties which is a negative for nwn1.

- NWN2 looks better graphically
Yes and no. I found that the lighting and placables models and tinting add some nice flexiblity building options, but some of the monster models were just as horrible as some of the lousy monster models of nwn1 and I found some of nwn1 monster models actually better. This not talking community changes.

- NWN1 has better animation sets
I agree there and also nwn1 allows for more animation set to be made nwn2 has a granny system that really hurts custom content makers.

- NWN2 has poor camera controls, although it seems there are ways to improve them
I agree. if it added a first person view would of also been nice.

- NWN1 seems to have a larger developer community
I agree. Mainly because of nwn2 choice of custom content support or lack there of.

- NWN2 has more advanced AI
You have to go into more detail on this one, I pretty much can do the same things in both.

- NWN2 has a terrain editor, whereas NWN1 only has tile sets
Well yes and no. NWN2 uses a tileset base on inside areas and terrain editor for outdoor areas. I agree though this is a plus for nwn2 still with a note that with CC nwn1 can make most themes.


Finally one more thought like Pstemarie said most company use something similar to nwn2 terrain system etc.. and time is a factor too. For a hobby that is more fun I would go with nwn1 :happy:.  Both toolsets are a lot better then others out there and learning on both will be helpful. Hope your final project goes great.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShadowM, 20 janvier 2014 - 05:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_CPK87]

                Thanks for all your replies - I didn't expect to get so many, so I went ahead and started learning NWN2.  I think the trickiest thing to learn will definitely be the scripting, but everything else seems straight forward enough so far.  I can definitely see the differences in preference between the two forums '>.  Anyway, I'd definitely give it some more thought if I had more time to make a decision, but unfortunately I'm on a pretty tight schedule and had to just go with something.  Happy modding!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               I think that's a shame but I respect your decision. If you had waited just a few hours more I had a few things that might have swayed you. Such as

To a large degree you don't actually have to learn to script in NwN because there is a user made tool by Lilac Soul that will create most of the day to day scripts for you. 

For those times when you need to learn some scripting there is a large downloadable scripting resource called the lexicon.

Let's not forget about the toolset either. In NwN you only need a single volume to learn the toolset, in NwN2 this covers 5+ volumes (at least the only one I saw and downloaded). There is a choice of user made toolset manuals in NwN but the one that I am going to opt for is the one made by The Builder's Project. Being magnaminous in defeat I'll also point out that they created a second volume that is applicable to NwN2 as well as NwN one, all about the design of modules.

Still I wish you luck. Personally I couldn't stand the terrain generator when I tried it. One request however. These communities are all about sharing so when you have handed your finished module in and it has been graded/marked please release it so that the rest of us can see what you finally came up with.

TR
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               If time is a big factor, then NWN is definitely the better choice. If my experience is any guide, it can easily take 10 times as long to do equivalent tasks in NWN2 as in 1, meaning one could switch to NWN1 half-way through a project and still come out ahead on time invested. Furthermore, I find that even aside from considerations of time and ease of use it is really only for rather specialized purposes that the NWN2 toolset offers any significant advantages. But good luck with whatever toolset you ultimately end up using.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

Tarot Redhand wrote...

To a large degree you don't actually have to learn to script in NwN because there is a user made tool by Lilac Soul that will create most of the day to day scripts for you.

TR

fwiw, Lilac Souls generated scripts generally work without issue in nwn2 as well. It's a regular tool in the nwn2 toolbox.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_CPK87]

               Well, I have around 3 months of development time to get something done.  Y'all are starting to scare me now, haha. 10 times as long?  I hope that's somewhat exaggerating.  I'm not afraid to take on new editors with short deadlines, as I've been doing that for over a year now, but I hope I'm not overscoping here.  I just seem to be getting some conflicting information between these two forums..    Not that I should be surprised, lol.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par CPK87, 21 janvier 2014 - 02:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               FWIW I know of several authors who had modules in NWN1 and decided to continue the series in NWN2...then decided the NWN2 toolset wasn't worth it and just came back to NWN1.  The small gains just weren't worth the massive increase in time/effort.  If you get a game that's 15% better looking but takes five times as long to make, is it really worth it?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Valthrendir]

               In the past, I have used both toolsets to get custom content in their respective games. In my experience, both toolsets have about the same functionality with only a few notable exceptions:
1) The NWN2 toolset does not use tiles in exterior area design
2) NWN2 runs on the electron engine instead of the aurora engine from NWN1

When making a development choice, a priori, between the two toolsets in question; I would first ask myself in which toolset I would have a better workflow. Moreover, I would look at the limitations the engine (in the case of NWN1, mostly walkmesh related) could have on the design of your module.

If you want to ''sculpt'' exterior areas with a large degree of freedom and feel that this functionality is essential for your creation, I would go with the toolset from NWN2. Another function that NWN2 has included into the toolset, as opposed to NWN1, is the creation of custom visual effects. In NWN1 you would need external resources to create these.

On the other hand, I feel that the toolset from NWN1 offers more control over the ingame environment. If you integrate custom made content (downloaded or modeled yourself), you can make your areas as complex as you like even though a tile system is used.