Mulltiple levels of a race when creating a new monster question

[Legacy_Jackrabbit_Slim]

               This may be a total newb question, but what is the advange or disadvantage of giving your monster multiple levels of a race?

For example, I want to design a dungeon full of level 10 skeleton warriors. Whats the difference between a skeleton with 1 level of undead and 9 fighter versus say 5 of each?

In the using the creature wizard I can see feats are assigned differently as well as stats. I guess what i'm asking is what would the extra levels of undead for you? And how and where can you tell what those differences are?

Thanks in advance!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               In terms of combat, BAB and saves.

Undead, for example, get 1 BAB per 2 levels (lowest possibly by default) and get the Wizard save progression (low Fort/Reflex, high Will).

It can technically also affect the HP of monsters (undead theoretically get d12, but you can use whatever value you actually want in the toolset).  Also affects the default challenge rating slightly.

In general, though, a 1 undead/9 fighter would have 9 BAB, 6 Fort, 3 Reflex, and 5 Will while a 5/5 split would have 7 BAB, 5 Fort, 2 Reflex, and 5 Will.

You can assign whatever feats and stats you want regardless, but the above are the more hardcoded aspects (which can still be changed with haks).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               You do not have to use those race levels at all if you do not want to, since you can just give a custom creature levels of player classes (rogue, wizard etc.) that have whatever BAB and save progression is called for (and everything else, hit points, skills, etc., can easily be manually altered). However it can sometimes be convenient to use them because leveling up creatures in these racial "classes" does not give a horde of default feats as is the case with the player classes. For example, if you make a Minotaur NPC and give him 10 levels of Fighter, the toolset will assign him a whole slew of feats you might not want him to have (let's say you want him fighting with a morningstar while the default fighter package is causing him to be assigned all sorts of longsword-specific feats), which you would then need to tediously remove and replace. If instead you gave him ten levels as as "Monstrous", you would have a clean slate to assign whatever feats you liked. But it is not a big deal either way.

For reference, the Base Attack Bonus progression (most important thing it affects) of the racial classes is as follows:

Aberration: Medium
Animal: Medium
Construct: Medium
Humanoid: Medium
Monstrous [Humanoid]: High
Elemental: Medium
Fey: Low
Dragon: High
Undead: Low
Commoner: Low
Beast: Medium
Giant: Medium
Magical Beast: High
Outsider: High
Shapechanger: Medium
Vermin: Medium
Ooze: Medium

For example a creature with ten levels of "Dragon" would have a BAB of 10, one with ten levels of "Giant" would have a BAB of 7, and one with ten levels of "Undead" would have a BAB of 5.

One final point: the "Commoner" class has some special functions, at least if you are using the default Bioware creature scripts. Anyone who kills a creature with levels of "Commoner" will have his alignment shifted toward evil (again, if the commoner in question has the default On Death script), and "commoners" act according to a special AI in combat (IIRC, they just try to run away from enemies unless they are very high-level).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jackrabbit_Slim]

               Thanks to both of you for the knowledge. Where do you get that info from? Is there a chart or list i can use that shows the BAB and saves for each race?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               You can find this information in the "classes.2da" file which in turn should be in the "2dasource" folder in your NWN folder, but if you are not experienced in working with 2da files you might have a hard time making heads or tails of the information they contain. This might help you to do so. However, for most purposes BAB is all you need to know (most everything else can be easily adjusted), and you have a list of that right here. One other point, just in cast this was not clear: this info is about creatures who have taken levels in a racial class which is not necessarily the same as being a member of that race (a separate thing). While it would be logical to have one go with the other, it is not required (e.g., just because a creature is classified as a dragon, there is no need to give it levels in the "Dragon" class if you do not wish to).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jackrabbit_Slim]

               Thanks again rogueknight. That was very helpful. I downloaded a 2da viewer as well as found these charts:

http://nwn2.wikia.co...BAB_progression

http://nwn2.wikia.co...ki/Saving_throw

So i know the high, med and low BAB of each level as well as saving throw progression. I know its NWN2 but im guessing the same applies?

And yes thank you for the racial class clarification. This is the info I was after, racial class stats. I had been making my monsters from the base fighter, wizard etc. Just wanted more info on the stats of making them with the racial classes.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

rogueknight333 wrote...

However, for most purposes BAB is all you need to know (most everything else can be easily adjusted), and you have a list of that right here. One other point, just in cast this was not clear: this info is about creatures who have taken levels in a racial class which is not necessarily the same as being a member of that race (a separate thing). While it would be logical to have one go with the other, it is not required (e.g., just because a creature is classified as a dragon, there is no need to give it levels in the "Dragon" class if you do not wish to).

Technically speaking (and I know you said "most" purposes), you could wind up with a save higher than you want if you use racial classes.  If you want a level 20 Outsider with 10 reflex, for example...he'd have 12 by default.  You'd have to apply a penalty to get the effect you want.

But yes, the PCs have no way of knowing whether that dragon is a level 20 dragon or a level 20 fighter...and because you can tweak the stats, it will never matter.

Jackrabbit_Slim wrote...

Thanks again rogueknight. That was very helpful. I downloaded a 2da viewer as well as found these charts:

Ew, NWN2.

http://nwn.wikia.com...se_attack_bonus

Use that.  Mainly because according to the NWN2 chart BAB is handled very differently in epic levels compared to NWN.

Jackrabbit_Slim wrote...

And yes thank you for the racial class clarification. This is the info I was after, racial class stats. I had been making my monsters from the base fighter, wizard etc. Just wanted more info on the stats of making them with the racial classes.

Personally, I'd suggest you keep doing base fighter/wizard/etc.  Keeps it simpler and I've never found a benefit of using racial classes.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 mars 2013 - 11:18 .