2013 February, Adventure Building Challenge

[Legacy_werelynx]

               So I have fixed the issues you told me about. I have uploaded the fixed version to its respective page at the vault.

If you have a little more patience I will try to include everything that was originally intended by the end of this month.

I am sorry I do not currently have enough time to play your modules, guys. On the other hand I have not played NWN for almost 2 months and toolset is just not enough for my NWNaddiction.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_meaglyn]

               @MagicalMaster: Anything you willing to play works for me. Thanks for the interest. I should be getting clobbered by Siege soon. The only 40th level character I've ever been close to was in Black Book '>

@RogueKnight333: No Hurries. Thanks for being willing to try it again.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

rogueknight333 wrote...

Well, I do not think it would have been an altogether unreasonable response to me, or someone else who raised a similar objection, to just say something like "This isn't some heavy role-play module exploring deep philosophical issues. Stop overthinking it so much." But since you are taking my criticism of it seriously...

Well, I'm taking it seriously for a few reasons:

First, based on what I've seen, I respect your opinion.  Doesn't mean we'll agree on everything or that I'll always change something if you mention it, but at a minimum I think it's worth carefully considering your opinion.

Second, this isn't something fundamental to the module or (at the other extreme) something I feel is incredibly nitpicky.  Like complaining about the fact you can't Dev Crit everything or saying how the way I've represented the celestial realm is wrong because of sourcebook X, respectively.  After I finished the fight I wondered if anyone would bring this subject up but decided to leave it alone for the moment.  If I can figure out a reasonable way to change it that doesn't compromise something essential and would make people happier, I don't see a reason not to do it.

Third, human psychology being what it is, we tend to over inflate things we dislike unless we make an extremely concious effort to weigh everything carefully.  If a person sees five things they really like in a module and one thing they really dislike in a module (and we assume they are equally weighted in theory), that one negative likely will outweigh the positives for most people.  In that sense, eliminating things that people dislike is often a better way to make people happier than trying to add new things that people like.

In short, I could say "This isn't some heavy role-play module exploring deep philosophical issues. Stop overthinking it so much" but if it's easy enough to fix and make people more satisified, why not do it?

MagicalMaster wrote...

...I tend to prefer the third option (angel is freed and then flies off or teleports away), since it would give a player a nice sense of having accomplished something. But if it is important to you to preserve some of the tragic element than option two does that (and changes things the least from your original concept). Actually, since there are three victims, it would be possible to implement all three of these if you wanted to.

It's not really important.  Thought process pretty much went like this:

1. Spider needs something to eat.
2. Most obvious answer would be captured angels.
3. How to stop spider from feeding paralyzed angels?
4. Have to kill them
5. Possible that some people may dislike this?
6. Yeah, but war can suck

However, you took the additional step of going from "I wish we didn't have to kill the angels" to "I want to rescue the angels" which I wasn't sure anyone would do.

meaglyn wrote...

@MagicalMaster: Anything you willing to
play works for me. Thanks for the interest. I should be getting
clobbered by Siege soon. The only 40th level character I've ever been
close to was in Black Book '>

Eh, guess I'll go "traditional" dex rogue then.

And yeah, one of the reasons I was interested in making Siege is because there are basically no level 40 modules out there, thought it would be something unique.

P.S. If you wait at least a few hours for v1_03, the third boss will be "happier."
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 10 mars 2013 - 12:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_PLUSH HYENA of DOOM]

               Dashing about like a lunatic at present doing assorted things INCLUDING my second ABC episode and have not had time to test February's Mods yet (including my own) though I still intend to get round to it.

Just a quick note of thanks to those who have provided commentary upon BLACK BOOK which seems grotesquely, underservedly positive for something done so freakishly quickly (with a brick) whilst so many other unpleasant things were distracting me.
All comments processed and examined and hopefully addressed by Episode 2 SILVER SPHERE which should make Starbright and Aurelia's return a somewhat smoother, richer experience... Eugh. Sounds like some sort of disgusting frothy coffee.

Revisions to BLACK BOOK are liable to involve a total remake of 99% of it, so it'll probably only be available when the first "trilogy" is done and gets its own Vault page. Meanwhile, back to Episode 2... Thanks again. Your input has been useful!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Meaglyn, been busy last day or two with real life and adjusting some stuff in my mod, I'll play yours within the next two to three days tops (hopefully tomorrow).

Werelynx, if we were interested in playing your module, would you suggest we do so now or wait until you finish adding the stuff you originally wanted it to have?

Added Siege of the Heavens v1_03:

- Selenoth the Hungerer is a potentially less depressing encounter
- Adjusted tuning slightly on Selenoth the Hungerer
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_werelynx]

               @MagicalMaster: Well, I would wait if I were you. I need to investigate "the brick method" PHoD mentions. Maybe it will speed up things.
Anyway I'm going back to my den to finish up those lime blancmanges..
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looking quite...>

I think the bash-with-a-brick technique is a canine thing, WL.
I'd think sitting arrogantly atop some wizard's important papers and staring hautily at him would work better for felines.

At least, that's the technique Vampyvet's Craycray uses on me. :-P

Whoa. Wait a minute. Lime? *Lime* blancmange? <he said that>
No one said anything about *lime* blancmange. <he did. Just now>
Deal breaker. <deal with it, mister-I-like-horrid-goo-like-substance>
Nope. Running now. <ahead of you, boss>
Damn your wings :-/ <*raven chuckle*>

<...alarmed>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 13 mars 2013 - 12:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               So, just did Rare Vintage.  Level 1 Human Rogue, 10/18/14/14/8/8 for stats, Point Blank Shot and Toughness.  Liked the storyline in general.

Scattered notes from while playing (not posting these on Vault so as to not sully it):

Please lock doors if they do not go anywhere so we don't go crazy trying every single one.

Silver Goblet owner has no store.

Do you care about typos?  Some missing periods, priest says "I server" a god instead of "served"

Paus Derman at the market has no store. Not being able to buy anything is kind of awful - can't get a crossbow or short bow for my rogue.

Update: he has a store OUTSIDE, but not in his home, though he gives the dialogue option.

Since I couldn't find any quests in town, I explored west since I saw a road leading that way.

Killed some goblins and beetles - no one seemed to care.

Also killed skeletons in crypt since it was marked on map.

Why did the wolves start out neutral - given your statement of "DON'T ATTACK ANYTHING NEUTRAL" I didn't expect them to turn hostile.

Bandits shouldn't be that close to the area transition.  I also lured them to the house guard - intended?

Cool chasm.

Kited the bandits at the cave - giving them longswords that can one shot (non crit) most level 1 characters seems odd (they can do at least 10 damage). The fight is completely luck based.

Respawn in place?

Bandit chief can do 13 damage - this will one shot a fighter with 14 con and Toughness, or 16 con and no toughness.  Respawn galore.

Hit level 2 after killing bandit chief.

I was able to pick the lock inside the warehouse on the metal door - then I got a key from the boss.  That meant to happen?

Just gave up and kept respawning on battle in warehouse - would keep randomly dying within a second by two hits landing.

May want to actually end the module at the end.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 mars 2013 - 07:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_meaglyn]

               @MagicalMaster: Thanks for playing it and the detailed notes. You seem to have hit a few of the known incompletenesses...

MagicalMaster wrote...
Please lock doors if they do not go anywhere so we don't go crazy trying every single one.

The town is incomplete, as I mentioned. I put map pins in for the useful places if you ask one of the barkeeps about the town. Of course you still have to explore enough to see them. Crypt one was supposed to be disabled until you got that quest. Still okay to get the XP and minor loot from killing them.

Not sure exactly how locking them would make a difference. You still have to go up and try it, and try to pick it...
That doesn't seem to make much difference if it then opens to no where or says key required at that point.
But yes, I feel your pain. Sorry about all that walking around...

Since I couldn't find any quests in town, I explored west since I saw a road leading that way.

I mentioned that there was no specific in town quest for rogues and that was going to make it tough to
level up before the bandits. This is part of that. You do want to get the XP for the beetles and goblins anyway.

Why did the wolves start out neutral - given your statement of "DON'T ATTACK ANYTHING NEUTRAL" I didn't expect them to turn hostile.

hhm, I said "don't attack neutral people for no reason".  Only those ranger/druid types count wolves as people '>

Bandits shouldn't be that close to the area transition.  I also lured them to the house guard - intended?

Cool chasm.

The bandits are supposed to be an ambush. Did the area transition itself cause you problems? e.g. popping
back through it by accident.

Can't take credit for the chasm, that's _six's work. I liked it too. Not sure the bandits would realisticly want to haul
the crates back and forth across the bridge, but it looks nice...


As to the group of comments related to the boss fights...

It's easy to die in those fights. I have found it's important to level up before the bandits as I said and we talked about how that would be hard for a rogue without the extra XP for one of the side-quests in town.  I'll balance the rogue better with that and some sort of helpful toy. As to respawning in place, don't die '> Or reload instead. I should disable respawn, I suppose. This was a one month effort (actually closer to two weeks) and far from full time, remember. A custom death/respawn system would have come at the expense of completing the main quest.
Plus, I never like respawn anyway...

The bandit chief will not follow you out of the back cave until his men are dead. So you can draw them away and 
make that easier. As I said, I have not played it as a rogue yet (still). But in theory you can pickpocket the needed
quest item from him and not fight at all. Not sure how realistic that is for a first level rogue though.  Maybe a
potion of invisibility...

Luck certainly plays a role (or roll '> in D&D games. But yes, that should be a bit less painful. Reverting to
short swords is not a bad idea.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the time. I've learned a lot from all of this. Some of issues were cut corners and such due to time. But many are first time module builder mistakes which I'll take to heart. That's part of why I put the time into doing the ABC. 

I'm still wading through hell hounds and vrocks in my +6 armor, very different feel from  struggling to survive a single sword blow. '>

Cheers,
Meaglyn
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

meaglyn wrote...

The town is incomplete, as I mentioned. I put map pins in for the useful places if you ask one of the barkeeps about the town. Of course you still have to explore enough to see them. Crypt one was supposed to be disabled until you got that quest. Still okay to get the XP and minor loot from killing them.

Not sure exactly how locking them would make a difference. You still have to go up and try it, and try to pick it...
That doesn't seem to make much difference if it then opens to no where or says key required at that point.
But yes, I feel your pain. Sorry about all that walking around...

True.  Hmm.  Part of the problem is that I explored prior to talking to the barkeep, meaning I found working doors before I had map pins.  Which meant I was wondering about every door.  Might want to just start off with the map pins.

meaglyn wrote...

I mentioned that there was no specific in town quest for rogues and that was going to make it tough to
level up before the bandits. This is part of that. You do want to get the XP for the beetles and goblins anyway.

Yeah, those notes were somewhat stream of consciousness and not really proof-read or carefully considered '>

meaglyn wrote...

hhm, I said "don't attack neutral people for no reason".  Only those ranger/druid types count wolves as people '>

Heh.  Well, maybe I'm at a disadvantage due to knowing something about factions.  If the wolves were set as commoners/merchants/defenders and factions were global, attacking them would make the actual people attack me.

meaglyn wrote...

The bandits are supposed to be an ambush. Did the area transition itself cause you problems? e.g. popping
back through it by accident.

Yes, but also it's just not realistic - they're not hiding, so you'd see them on the road, not have them appear 10 feet away.  If you want to stealth them or something for an ambush, that could work (which means they take longer to approach and you might spot them).

In general, though, spawning stuff practically on top of ranged characters without them being able to react is rather unfair.  Especially for a mage.  A mage not noticing the bandits or blindly running ahead and thus dying = fair.  Transitioning into a zone and OH GOD BANDITS ON ME I DIED = not fair.  It really breaks the immersion as well since the whole idea of an area transition is a game limitation.

meaglyn wrote...

I should disable respawn, I suppose. This was a one month effort (actually closer to two weeks) and far from full time, remember. A custom death/respawn system would have come at the expense of completing the main quest.
Plus, I never like respawn anyway...

Yeah, I understand, just saying even disabling respawn would have been perfectly fine.

meaglyn wrote...

The bandit chief will not follow you out of the back cave until his men are dead. So you can draw them away and 
make that easier.

Oh, I did.  Fought the one to the north first, then two from the leader's room, then the leader.

meaglyn wrote...

As I said, I have not played it as a rogue yet (still). But in theory you can pickpocket the needed
quest item from him and not fight at all. Not sure how realistic that is for a first level rogue though.  Maybe a
potion of invisibility...

Didn't have pickpocket but it wouldn't really work anyway - even with 18 Dex you'd only have 8 Pickpocket with a DC of 30.

meaglyn wrote...

Luck certainly plays a role (or roll '> in D&D games. But yes, that should be a bit less painful. Reverting to
short swords is not a bad idea.

Honestly, I'd say daggers for the bandits and slings for the ranged attackers.  Presumably the idea is that getting hit means you have to use healing potions, right, and that getting hit too much will run you out of potions and killl you (or kill you if you don't heal)?  Hit points are simply so low at early levels compared to weapon dice, and the idea is punishing stupid play, not risking random deaths, I'd imagine.

meaglyn wrote...

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the time. I've learned a lot from all of this. Some of issues were cut corners and such due to time. But many are first time module builder mistakes which I'll take to heart. That's part of why I put the time into doing the ABC.

And that's why we're providing said feedback (and why we're not tarnishing the vault page with this stuff for a beta mod).

meaglyn wrote...

I'm still wading through hell hounds and vrocks in my +6 armor, very different feel from  struggling to survive a single sword blow. '>

Slightly different, yes '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               I played the updated version of Rare Vintage so thought I might as well add my notes to Magical Master's. First, the obligatory typo corrections (that I noticed), to get those out of the way:

In the initial conversation with Sir Mandis he says "Come, we need to tell the count," (ends with comma, not period).

In the conversation with the count, one of the conversational paths ends with "Very well. <Unregistered Token>, you must be tired from your journey. Sir Mandos will show to to a room..."

meaglyn wrote...

As to the group of comments related to the boss fights...

It's easy to die in those fights. I have found it's important to level up before the bandits as I said and we talked about how that would be hard for a rogue without the extra XP for one of the side-quests in town.  I'll balance the rogue better with that and some sort of helpful toy. As to respawning in place, don't die '> Or reload instead. I should disable respawn, I suppose. This was a one month effort (actually closer to two weeks) and far from full time, remember. A custom death/respawn system would have come at the expense of completing the main quest.
Plus, I never like respawn anyway...

...Luck certainly plays a role (or roll '> in D&D games. But yes, that should be a bit less painful. Reverting to
short swords is not a bad idea.

I tend to dislike (and not use) a respawn system unless it has been incorporated into the plot somehow so there is a plausible explanation as to why the PC can keep coming back from the dead, while enemies and random victims of violence cannot. And as you say it would not really have been practical to implement something of the sort in this module.

It is certainly true that the D&D rules tend to be pretty brutal to fist level characters, which is why at first level I generally kite and/or keep foes occupied with summoned allies. It is either that or risk dying to the first lucky hit. I imagine this module would indeed be very difficult for a rogue lacking whatever benefits the unimplemented sidequest was supposed to provide. Without traps (or very few traps for rogues who craft the skeleton knuckles from the crypt), and without wands to use through UMD, kiting would be the main trick left to a rogue, and in many cases (especially the final battle), the geography here does not really lend itself to that tactic. I am guessing that as you expand the town you will add a few more stores offering some specialized equipment like that. If not it would be something to consider.

Playing as a druid, however, (as I did on this run-through), I found the difficulty quite manageable. For the most part all I had to do was let my Bear companion loose on any enemies (for the fight at the ruins I used animal empathy and threw the wolf from the other area into the fight too).  In the bigger fights I would thin the enemy ranks for my ursine companion with a sleep spell, and feed him healing potions as necessary. Only had to reload twice (once when I  ran ahead without paying attention and got nailed by a bandit with a bow, and once in the final battle that I was foolishly unprepared for) and even then only because I was playing too quickly and recklessly. I used similar tactics in my first play-through (with a mage), though in that case it was a bit tougher because my pixie familiar was much less likely to survive (though she mostly did well enough with Mage Armor cast on her), but this was compensated for by having that Wand of Sleep that if necessary I could keep using until all enemies collapsed into unconsciousness. Of course I was not able to reach the final fight that time due to a bug, so I have no idea how that would have gone. I suspect badly if I did not get lucky on my first cast of Sleep. In both cases I think I leveled up a bit later than intended as a result of the XP drain from all these associates, but it was worth it.

As a side note, my druid's reward for clearing out the crypt was to be given a Mace +1 he could not actually use. Not a problem l since I was fighting with a sling anyway (to the extent that what I was doing could be described as fighting, rather than "watching my bear snack on bandits'), and I could sell it for a decent amount of otherwise rare gold, but I suspect being given a useless item (except for sale) was not intended.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Heh. Well, maybe I'm at a disadvantage due to knowing something about factions. If the wolves were set as commoners/merchants/defenders and factions were global, attacking them would make the actual people attack me.

Yes, global factions can be the source of all sorts of bugs. I think builders would be well-advised to make setting all factions to not be global one of the first things they do when making a module, unless they have clear and specific reasons for wanting them to be. On the subject of wolves, I encountered some oddities concerning them. On my first run-through I found only one, hostile wolf. On my second, I came across two wolves (maybe the bear being there caused a larger encounter spawn?), who were not hostile to me but who were fighting each other (one eventually got killed). I am guessing you are using some sort of system that causes these animals to become hostile to non-druids? If so you might want to modify it so the wolves do not turn hostile to each other either (not that it was exactly a problem, but it seemed kind of strange).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_meaglyn]

               

rogueknight333 wrote...

I tend to dislike (and not use) a respawn system unless it has been incorporated into the plot somehow so there is a plausible explanation as to why the PC can keep coming back from the dead, while enemies and random victims of violence cannot. And as you say it would not really have been practical to implement something of the sort in this module.

I just disabled the respawn. I think I'll add an autosave when you start across the bridge and maybe right
before the ambush (on leaving the hills area) . That would serve both as a safety for people who forget to
save often and a heads up.

It is certainly true that the D&D rules tend to be pretty brutal to fist level characters, which is why at first level I generally kite and/or keep foes occupied with summoned allies. It is either that or risk dying to the first lucky hit. I imagine this module would indeed be very difficult for a rogue lacking whatever benefits the unimplemented sidequest was supposed to provide. Without traps (or very few traps for rogues who craft the skeleton knuckles from the crypt), and without wands to use through UMD, kiting would be the main trick left to a rogue, and in many cases (especially the final battle), the geography here does not really lend itself to that tactic. I am guessing that as you expand the town you will add a few more stores offering some specialized equipment like that. If not it would be something to consider.

Working on the rogue quest now. There will be a blackmarket-ish store.  That could have traps. I'm not a big fan of  rogues running around dropping traps as a method of combat so I want to come up with some other help for that class. I may just let the rogue have the sleep wand (which btw I've crippled down to 5 charges).

Ideally I'd like a stealthy rogue to be able to pickpocket the letter and avoid having to fight the bandits. Not sure if that's going to work though. You'd still want to get into the chest for the loot too.

Playing as a druid, however, (as I did on this run-through), I found the difficulty quite manageable. For the most part all I had to do was let my Bear companion loose on any enemies (for the fight at the ruins I used animal empathy and threw the wolf from the other area into the fight too).  In the bigger fights I would thin the enemy ranks for my ursine companion with a sleep spell, and feed him healing potions as necessary. Only had to reload twice (once when I  ran ahead without paying attention and got nailed by a bandit with a bow, and once in the final battle that I was foolishly unprepared for) and even then only because I was playing too quickly and recklessly. I used similar tactics in my first play-through (with a mage), though in that case it was a bit tougher because my pixie familiar was much less likely to survive (though she mostly did well enough with Mage Armor cast on her), but this was compensated for by having that Wand of Sleep that if necessary I could keep using until all enemies collapsed into unconsciousness. Of course I was not able to reach the final fight that time due to a bug, so I have no idea how that would have gone. I suspect badly if I did not get lucky on my first cast of Sleep. In both cases I think I leveled up a bit later than intended as a result of the XP drain from all these associates, but it was worth it.

Yes, the extra bodies help a lot. That's why Sir Mandis was originally supposed to be available as a henchman
for the ruins.  How did you get the wolf to stay across the area transition? Everytime I use animal empathy on one of the wolves and change areas it goes away.

Levelling up before the bandits is not as important if you are mage or other person with summoned help...

As a side note, my druid's reward for clearing out the crypt was to be given a Mace +1 he could not actually use. Not a problem l since I was fighting with a sling anyway (to the extent that what I was doing could be described as fighting, rather than "watching my bear snack on bandits'), and I could sell it for a decent amount of otherwise rare gold, but I suspect being given a useless item (except for sale) was not intended.

Every one gets that for that quest. I think I've sold it every time. Paladin and Cleric too. The chance for a real suit
of armor and real sword (for the Paladin anyway) and shield is too much to pass up. I didn't want him just to hand over a pile of gold. I fixed the store too so you can use it at night if you follow the guy home.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Heh. Well, maybe I'm at a disadvantage due to knowing something about factions. If the wolves were set as commoners/merchants/defenders and factions were global, attacking them would make the actual people attack me.

Not in this case. The wolves are in a different faction and it's non-global (although I did forget to turn off global
on all the other factions that would not have bitten you here).  I really did mean don't attack neutral "people".
And that mostly because it can break the plot if you take out the wrong person.

Yes, global factions can be the source of all sorts of bugs. I think builders would be well-advised to make setting all factions to not be global one of the first things they do when making a module, unless they have clear and specific reasons for wanting them to be. On the subject of wolves, I encountered some oddities concerning them. On my first run-through I found only one, hostile wolf. On my second, I came across two wolves (maybe the bear being there caused a larger encounter spawn?), who were not hostile to me but who were fighting each other (one eventually got killed). I am guessing you are using some sort of system that causes these animals to become hostile to non-druids? If so you might want to modify it so the wolves do not turn hostile to each other either (not that it was exactly a problem, but it seemed kind of strange).

I changed the logic in between your playings. They start off neutral to everyone, but will likely turn hostile for a non-ranger/non-druid. And yes, I noticed them fighting each other too. I can clean that up easily enough since they are in their own faction.  

Thanks for the notes!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par meaglyn, 15 mars 2013 - 01:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Word of warning: was testing some stuff in Siege and discovered two things -

The current "final" boss (encounter with three enemies) is more difficult than intended for wizards/sorcerers and has a bug that can happen very rarely (bug isn't crippling, just annoying). Working on fixing some stuff for sorcerer/wizard specifically to improve that and other things along with fixing the annoying bug.

Should have v1_04 released tonight or tomorrow.

rogueknight333 wrote...

I played the updated version of Rare Vintage so thought I might as well add my notes to Magical Master's. First, the obligatory typo corrections (that I noticed), to get those out of the way:

I noticed quite a few more typos than that but wasn't sure if Meaglyn wanted a listing of every typo yet (since that's probably lower on the priority list).

rogueknight333 wrote...

It is certainly true that the D&D rules tend to be pretty brutal to fist level characters, which is why at first level I generally kite and/or keep foes occupied with summoned allies. It is either that or risk dying to the first lucky hit.

This can be avoided by reducing the damage of enemies while keeping their AB somewhat reasonable.  Meaning if you get hit you have time to react and heal (but if your AC is low you'll get hit a lot and may run out of healing).  I honestly don't think any level 1 enemy should do more than 1-2 damage per hit for physical attacks (since they can also crit, are unlimited, and apply to Attacks of Opportunity).

rogueknight333 wrote...

I imagine this module would indeed be very difficult for a rogue lacking whatever benefits the unimplemented sidequest was supposed to provide. Without traps (or very few traps for rogues who craft the skeleton knuckles from the crypt), and without wands to use through UMD, kiting would be the main trick left to a rogue, and in many cases (especially the final battle), the geography here does not really lend itself to that tactic.

Indeed.  No traps/wands and the fact I had a good chance of being one-shot (even with 14 con and Toughness) meant all I did was kite with a Heavy Crossbow.  Except that doesn't really work in the Bandit's Cave without zoning out and doesn't work at all in the final battle.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Playing as a druid, however, (as I did on this run-through), I found the difficulty quite manageable. For the most part all I had to do was let my Bear companion loose on any enemies (for the fight at the ruins I used animal empathy and threw the wolf from the other area into the fight too).

Were you healing the companion via dialogue constantly, out of curiosity?

meaglyn wrote...

Working on the rogue quest now. There will be a blackmarket-ish store.  That could have traps. I'm not a big fan of  rogues running around dropping traps as a method of combat so I want to come up with some other help for that class. I may just let the rogue have the sleep wand (which btw I've crippled down to 5 charges).

If you do the sleep wand, that still brings up the problem of a rogue not having enough UMD.  According to the Wiki, having 1-4 UMD lets you use items up to 1000 gold, and the Wand of Sleep is valued at 1501.  Meaning you'd need to have 12 charisma AND maxed UMD to be able to use it at level 1.  At level two, you'd just need 10 charisma.  But if you have 9 or less charisma, you'd never be able to use it.

Rogues also run into the issue of not having Weapon Finesse until level 3, meaning they need to use a ranged weapon or have higher base strength.

meaglyn wrote...

Ideally I'd like a stealthy rogue to be able to pickpocket the letter and avoid having to fight the bandits. Not sure if that's going to work though. You'd still want to get into the chest for the loot too.

Not possible unless you give them an item to increase Pickpocketing by 15-20.  DC is 30 for a hostile creature.  A rogue with 18 dex would only have 8 skill at level 1, 9 skill at level 2.  So even on a natural 20, you'd still be 1 short (and it's very likely you'd be spotted by the bandit).

"Stealing the item is a simple skill test against the target's difficulty class. The base DC for a neutral or tolerant creature is 20, and 30 for a hostile creature. This roll is modified by armor check penalties. The targeted creature then makes an opposed Spot check against the character's Pick Pocket check. Hostile creatures have a +10 bonus to their Spot checks in this test."

meaglyn wrote...

Every one gets that for that quest. I think I've sold it every time. Paladin and Cleric too. The chance for a real suit
of armor and real sword (for the Paladin anyway) and shield is too much to pass up. I didn't want him just to hand over a pile of gold.

Still, being given a "useless" item seems less than ideal.  Could let the person take an item of their choosing from a chest that then despawns (see the Ogre Mage quest in Snow Hunt if you want an easy example).

meaglyn wrote...

Not in this case. The wolves are in a different faction and it's non-global (although I did forget to turn off global
on all the other factions that would not have bitten you here).  I really did mean don't attack neutral "people".
And that mostly because it can break the plot if you take out the wrong person.

I'd suggest making that clearer, because I suspect most people will assume that means "neutral = don't attack."

meaglyn wrote...

I changed the logic in between your playings. They start off neutral to everyone, but will likely turn hostile for a non-ranger/non-druid. And yes, I noticed them fighting each other too. I can clean that up easily enough since they are in their own faction.

I assumed they were SUPPOSED to be fighting each other for dominance or something.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 15 mars 2013 - 09:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

meaglyn wrote...

...How did you get the wolf to stay across the area transition? Everytime I use animal empathy on one of the wolves and change areas it goes away.

I did not do anything special, and I am not sure why you would have that problem. It is possible the wolf is scripted to move to some waypoint or wander around the area of his initial spawn or something, and so he normally tries to go back there, but in my case this was preempted by the combat AI (we ran into the two treacherous wine-transporters almost immediately upon entering that area, and the wolf charged them). That is just a guess as to what might have happened, I do not really know.

MagicalMaster wrote...

rogueknight333 wrote...

It is certainly true that the D&D rules tend to be pretty brutal to fist level characters, which is why at first level I generally kite and/or keep foes occupied with summoned allies. It is either that or risk dying to the first lucky hit.

This can be avoided by reducing the damage of enemies while keeping their AB somewhat reasonable.  Meaning if you get hit you have time to react and heal (but if your AC is low you'll get hit a lot and may run out of healing).  I honestly don't think any level 1 enemy should do more than 1-2 damage per hit for physical attacks (since they can also crit, are unlimited, and apply to Attacks of Opportunity).

In theory that seems reasonable, but if you make the main challenge for your Level 1 characters fighting rats (a monster who only does 1 damage per hit), you will get complaints about how cliched and boring that is. You can also run into story-logic problems where people wonder why the bandits or goblins or whatever they are fighting are equipped with rusty daggers when there is no apparent reason why they would not have access to better equipment than that. In any case, whether it is a good idea or not, most modules for 1st-level characters seem to be designed in the expectation that one will not be able to survive without a bit of luck, and just assume players will respawn/reload if they do not get that luck (and then when one gets out of that low-level "instant death" zone, they mostly go to the other extreme and make things far too easy, but that is a whole other topic). I do not myself like having to reload, or to respawn unless the respawn system has been incorporated into the plot in a reasonable way (which I try to do in my own modules), since I find these immersion-breaking meta-gaming actions, but I think most players (and builders) just accept the occasional necessity  as an element of the game, and do not worry about them until the frequency starts to seem excessive.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Were you healing the companion via dialogue constantly, out of curiosity?

I am not sure what you mean by "constantly." I would normally top off the bear's hitpoints through dialgoue after a significant episode of fighting was done (or rest if I had taken HP losses too or used spells), and in the final fight I fed him a couple healing potions while the fight was going on (only time that expedient was actually needed).

MagicalMaster wrote...
If you do the sleep wand, that still brings up the problem of a rogue not having enough UMD.  According to the Wiki, having 1-4 UMD lets you use items up to 1000 gold, and the Wand of Sleep is valued at 1501.  Meaning you'd need to have 12 charisma AND maxed UMD to be able to use it at level 1.  At level two, you'd just need 10 charisma.  But if you have 9 or less charisma, you'd never be able to use it.

It is not that simple, since the value of a wand goes down as the number of charges does (if you alter the number of charges in the toolset, you will not see the price visibly change there, but it does), and that value of 1501 just applies to a wand with the full 50.  I do not know off the top of my head what number of charges would constitute the cutoff point, but I know that I have played Level 1 rogues with 8 (and even 6) charisma who were perfectly able to use Wands of Sleep with less than the maximum charge on them. And you are also not taking into account the ability to increase effective UMD by using a Potion of Eagle's Splendor or something of that nature.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_meaglyn]

               

MagicalMaster wrote:

I noticed quite a few more typos than that but wasn't sure if Meaglyn wanted a listing of every typo yet (since that's probably lower on the priority list).

Meaglyn would be fine with a PM with that if you're willing '> I find that I can only really proof read things on paper with a pen in hand. I haven't found a good way to solve that with creature variables, journals entries, conversations and so on...

Not possible unless you give them an item to increase Pickpocketing by 15-20.  DC is 30 for a hostile creature.  A rogue with 18 dex would only have 8 skill at level 1, 9 skill at level 2.  So even on a natural 20, you'd still be 1 short (and it's very likely you'd be spotted by the bandit).

"Stealing the item is a simple skill test against the target's difficulty class. The base DC for a neutral or tolerant creature is 20, and 30 for a hostile creature. This roll is modified by armor check penalties. The targeted creature then makes an opposed Spot check against the character's Pick Pocket check. Hostile creatures have a +10 bonus to their Spot checks in this test."

Where is this from?  Looks like useful information, and there's probably more where that came from...

Maybe I'll make the neutral until perception... I'l play around with this part. 

I assumed they were SUPPOSED to be fighting each other for dominance or something.

Nah, I was just playing with animal AI.  I had the same thought the first time I saw them fighting. I bit me once because one died before I could kill it and I really wanted the XP...

Thanks again for the notes. I'm in the process of a big update to complete the extra side quests and make the town more interesting. 

Cheers,
Meaglyn