Author Topic: Level-up packages  (Read 714 times)

Legacy_Grani

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Level-up packages
« on: December 22, 2012, 03:02:43 pm »


               I have several questions regarding the level-up packages...

1. Are toolset packages that can be applied to NPCs like "standard druid" the same that the player can select for their PC? Or is there some difference between them?

2. Is it OK to use base class packages (warrior, barbarian, ranger, etc) for leveling up henchmen or would they be underpowered on higher levels?

3. Can prestige class packages be used in the same way?


Thanks.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 05:50:53 pm »


               

Grani wrote...

1. Are toolset packages that can be applied to NPCs like "standard druid" the same that the player can select for their PC? Or is there some difference between them?


They can be used, yes.

Grani wrote...

2. Is it OK to use base class packages (warrior, barbarian, ranger, etc) for leveling up henchmen or would they be underpowered on higher levels?


All of the standard packages are pretty bad.  But that's probably "only" a difference of being 30-50% worse.

That said, you can also set up packages that don't suck if you want.

Grani wrote...

3. Can prestige class packages be used in the same way?


Not 100% sure, but I'd assume yes.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 08:40:11 pm »


               Thanks for the answer.
Well, if the default ones are rather bad, are there any others for download? I know I could do them myself, but I can bet they would suck even more than Bioware's ones in this case.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 09:25:09 pm »


               Um, never checked, but I could whip some up if you'd like, I imagine.  From what I looked into a bit ago it seemed fairly simple provided it's one class, never tried to do anything multi-class.

Something important, though, is knowing what the max level will be.  For example, if the max level in your mod is level 23 and the henchman is a fighter, having him pick up Epic Weapon Focus at level 21 would be an extremely good idea instead of Great Strength I.  If the cap is 40, though, then you'd want him to grab Great Strength I and get EWF with a fighter bonus feat.

It'll make him stronger in the long run, if that makes sense, at a slight cost to short term power.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 22 décembre 2012 - 09:25 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Grani

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Level-up packages
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 09:34:09 pm »


               Level range in my module is 1-40, since it's kind of a "PW lite" and henchman always is at the level of his PC companion, so package for "long term" build seems to be a better idea overall.

Generally, I wanted henchmen of all classes available (no multiclassing, though) or at least base classes if prestige singleclassing is off limits for some reason, but I know it would be too much trouble...

So if you could and wanted to help, I'd be very glad to have at least a warrior, a druid and a wizard. '<img'>
Thanks.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 09:50:39 pm »


               Any important feat/spell changes I should know about?

"Standard" fighter focusing on strength?  What starting stats should I expect?  What weapon do you want him to use?

Do you want me to pick up heavy armor for the druid?  Is he focused on spellcasting, shifting, or a mix?

What Spell Foci are worth getting (if any) on your world?  Is Spell Penetration worth taking?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 09:57:05 pm »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Any important feat/spell changes I should know about?

"Standard" fighter focusing on strength?  What starting stats should I expect?  What weapon do you want him to use?

Do you want me to pick up heavy armor for the druid?  Is he focused on spellcasting, shifting, or a mix?

What Spell Foci are worth getting (if any) on your world?  Is Spell Penetration worth taking?



No feat or spell changes for these three classes. Starting stats are the ones determined by the toolset when creating a level 1 character in this class. I think I'd go with a short sword and small shield for a warrior (he's a halfling). Druid could focus on spellcasting and I think I'd pass on heavy armor. I don't think there are any specific spell foci more useful than others in my module, as for the spell penetration feat, I can see it being useful.

Edit: Right, warrior focusing on strength, sorry I missed it. ^^"
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Grani, 22 décembre 2012 - 10:01 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_CalSailX

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Level-up packages
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 02:14:03 am »


               Now just my two cents, but a few well thought out level up packages for henchmen would be a welcome addition to the vault in a area of content that is almost barren.

Think of it folks take your killer PC char and see how he/she does as a henchman/woman in a module. As a module builder I myself would be willing to slip a OOC dialog line in with credits for
a hench that rocks.

Doing level up packages isn't for everyone... but it's something that might be rewarding for the right person. It's a hole I've yet to see filled by CC in any meaningful way.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_CalSailX

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Level-up packages
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 02:50:27 am »


               I'd be happy as a clam to see a ready made set of packages for a rogue, cleric, or  tank. Special place in my heart and module for a bard package... will kick the AI to use what I can!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 04:00:02 am »


               

CalSailX wrote...

Special place in my heart and module for a bard package... will kick the AI to use what I can!


Yeah, the problem is getting the AI to use some feats/spells intelligently : /

I could make a pretty good bard package, but the AI might not handle it well.

P.S. "Bard" is way too generic.  If you'd like a good bard build you'd need to be more specific.  Pure bard or multiclass?  Strength or dex based?  Ranged or melee?

P.P.S. I'll look into some of the other stuff over the next few days.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 03:39:26 am »


                I agree with CalSailX that the apparent absence of custom level-up packages (unless they are hidden somewhere I could not find) is an unfortunate lack among all the available NWN CC, possibly explained by there being limited overlap between CC makers and Powerbuilders. I remember looking around for such a thing a few years ago, when I became disgusted by the worthlessness of Bioware's packages, and not being able to find much of anything. Eventually I made my own. The hakpak for my own module (Chapter Two, link in signature) includes custom packages for a bard, cleric, monk, sorcerer, rogue/paladin, rogue/blackguard, and figther/dwarven defender. I suppose anyone who wants could use/modify these, though if someone does keep in mind that:

1) They were designed for specific NPC characters in a specific environment. For example not all bards would be interested in taking Weapon Finesse and Martial Weapon Proficiency, as mine does.

2) They were intended to produce hopefully interesting and useful, but by no means perfectly optimized henchmen.

In general, someone making custom packages, or calling for others to do so, should be aware that one could not perfectly reproduce most PC builds. It is impossible to use skill-dumping with henchman packages, for example (or at least I was not able to find a way to do this): henchman spend all availabe skill points each time they level-up. Thus at least one tool PC power-builds make routine use of would not work in this context. It appears henchmen also cannot cast meta-magicked spells (at least not without complicated workarounds), meaning that it would be pointless to give a henchman feats like Empower or Extend Magic, etc., useful as these can be to PC casters. There are also (as Magical Master suggests) many spells and abilities that would be very useful to a PC but of which the AIs controlling henchmen will make no or very poor use (unless you also want to revamp the AI, a much more difficult undertaking). When selecting spells for my cleric and sorcerer packages, for example, my chief criterion was "spells that the AI will (maybe, hopefully) not use in a completely idiotic manner." Were I selecting spells for a PC build I expect I would have generated a very different list.

To clarify a point raised above, it is perfectly possible to make henchmen with prestige classes (and using either the standard or customized packages for these), BUT you need the henchman to meet the normal prerequisites for the prestige class in question (I think, though maybe someone with greater expertise knows a way around this), meaning that you could not have a single-classed prestige class henchman: he would need to start as one of the base classes until he had obtained the minimum BAB, feats, etc. needed to qualify for the prestige class, and could not take more than 30 levels in it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par rogueknight333, 24 décembre 2012 - 03:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Grani

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Level-up packages
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2012, 01:11:23 pm »


               Thanks for all the explanations.

Well, I had a thought of another workaround, though it's only a dry idea. Would it be possible to simply use standard packages but somehow "artificially" empower the henchmen so that they wouldn't... well, suck?
I'm aware of the fact that this power-up would need to change with level (I guess it would need to be bigger when henchmen is on higher levels, since the lower level he is, the less he sucks for his level) but I dunno what could this power-up be and how to implement it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Grani, 25 décembre 2012 - 01:12 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2012, 06:26:05 pm »


               Depends on the class.

Strictly speaking, for example, the default recommend Fighter does fairly well (it's less terrible than most packages) and figuring out a way to give him a few extra AB/AC/damage immunity or whatever wouldn't be too tricky.

Trying to artificially empower a sorcerer (or any caster) is another matter.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2013, 12:03:59 pm »


               I just wanted to give a link to what I found very helpful for henchman levelling:
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=1111

It also contains several custom packages, one for each base class, so that's pretty much what I was looking for.