Author Topic: Future of the ABC  (Read 2417 times)

Legacy_rogueknight333

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 05:00:48 pm »


               


This wouldn't be possible...




 


It might if some other rule violation were also in play. In any case, giving equal rewards for different degrees of accomplishment is open to essentially the same criticism. I was only using an extreme example to illustrate the point, but that perhaps obfuscated it instead.


 


Under your proposed system we would actually be rewarding people for violating a rule. If, for example, the CC & theme limitations were not an issue (and I expect they would only be so in a limited number of special cases), there would be no reason not to submit late. Submitting late would give more time to polish one's module, with no penalty. One might just as well set the time limit at 1 month+1 week (assuming 1 month was the base limit) to begin with. Why, under your system, would anyone ever submit on time, outside of the few special cases where the other rules were at stake? And in that case are we not also specially discriminating against those who do have some special reason for wanting a couple MB extra, or whatever, in precisely the manner you decry? They would have to submit a week earlier, which given the nature of the challenge, is a very significant difference (far more so, it would seem, than losing a few points). Alternatively someone who has no problem submitting on time would have no reason not to completely ignore the theme or the CC limits. 


 


It would seem a lot simpler to just not have rules than to first declare them and then encourage their violation.


 


As an aside, if there is no special reward for being early, I am not sure we even need a penalty for buggyness. Presumably no one is going to intentionally include bugs. The purpose of penalizing buggyness was to discourage people from rushing their work and submitting early at the expense of quality, which should not be an issue if there is no particular reason to submit early in the first place.


 



 




And if someone is petty enough to be angry that the person above got an EQUAL medal (the best one still) for producing a high quality and interesting ABC module, then I don't think that's an opinion we should be catering to.  We want to encourage people to participate and get a bunch of good submissions.




 



 


Ideally people would participate because they enjoy trying to make modules under the ABC's limitations or find this a convenient opportunity to make something fun or interesting. Any awards, points, etc. would just be gravy, ideally not something to get too worried about. If someone is going to get worked up about them, however, they would have every right to regard it as an injustice (albeit a trivial one) if they make sacrifices to abide by all the rules, only to be treated as equal to someone who did not. I might also note that, so far, you yourself are the only interested party to overreact to the points/awards in the manner you suggest is petty, so if I take your advice on that particular point, it is your opinions I would have to avoid catering to. Needless to say, I would prefer not to commence ignoring you, as I generally find your input interesting and helpful even when I disagree.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_CaveGnome

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 09:40:58 pm »


               

Hello all,


 


I would like to propose an additional theme for a future AB Challenge:


 


 


 


Name: The great voyage.

Description: You (your party) will make a long and arduous journey to a far exotic destination.

The module will capture the travel adventures and finish when the distant goal is reached, or at

a minimum, will focus on a significant part of the endeavour. Travel can be by any means you like

(walking, horse, balloon, boat, eagle, treant, whale, dragon of course, magical transport, etc.).


 


 


 


 


Have a nice day (or night)... and don't take too seriously the points / rewards debate. The


original ABC had just 2 prizes: completion (ABC seed used and module delivered on time) and


honorable mention (delivered) 'B)'


 


 


CG



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grymlorde

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 10:46:59 pm »


               


Have a nice day (or night)... and don't take too seriously the points / rewards debate. The


original ABC had just 2 prizes: completion (ABC seed used and module delivered on time) and


honorable mention (delivered) 'B)'




 


I like the original scoring better.  ':ph34r:'


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2014, 11:33:39 pm »


               Thirded. Will respond more later.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 08:40:32 am »


               


I might also note that, so far, you yourself are the only interested party to overreact to the points/awards in the manner you suggest is petty, so if I take your advice on that particular point, it is your opinions I would have to avoid catering to. Needless to say, I would prefer not to commence ignoring you, as I generally find your input interesting and helpful even when I disagree.




 


Thankfully that isn't a concern since I am literally acting the complete opposite of the behavior I mentioned.  Consider the following as a concrete example:


 


Player A and player B both make ABC mods.  Player A's module is objectively better in every way.  But they both use a bunch of themes, turn it in on time, abide by CC restrictions, and have no bugs.  Under every scoring system listed so far, player A and B will get the same score/medal, which is the highest possible.


 


If player A gets upset that they both get equal ranking despite his being better, that's being petty.  Both modules were considered good enough to get the best award possible.  Presumably the same situation would occur if player B had 1-2 bugs.  Etc.


 



So the pettiness I'm talking about is someone getting upset that a "lesser" module (that is still a good module) received the same score as their module.  Which, again, is the complete opposite of what I've been saying/proposing this entire time.


 




It would seem a lot simpler to just not have rules than to first declare them and then encourage their violation.




 


I'd have no objection to that.


 




Why, under your system, would anyone ever submit on time, outside of the few special cases where the other rules were at stake? And in that case are we not also specially discriminating against those who do have some special reason for wanting a couple MB extra, or whatever, in precisely the manner you decry? They would have to submit a week earlier, which given the nature of the challenge, is a very significant difference (far more so, it would seem, than losing a few points).




 


Pride.  It's publicly known they couldn't finish the module on time with the quality needed.  People don't like that feeling.


 


And no, we're not specially discriminating against those people.  We're giving *everyone* a mulligan.  Can submit it late, use extra CC, not use themes, OR have some bugs.  Just one of those options.  One freebie.  Go past one and you'd start getting worse medals.


 


I also find it interesting that you're coming at it from the perspective of people planning to break the rules from the start and intentionally planning on turning it late versus having it as a last resort.


 




As an aside, if there is no special reward for being early, I am not sure we even need a penalty for buggyness. Presumably no one is going to intentionally include bugs. The purpose of penalizing buggyness was to discourage people from rushing their work and submitting early at the expense of quality, which should not be an issue if there is no particular reason to submit early in the first place.




 


People won't intentionally include bugs but they very well might not reserve anywhere close to enough time for testing.  Gives them a reason to NOT build up to the last second and hope there aren't bugs.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_werelynx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2014, 08:52:57 am »


               

You are overthinking the scoring. It shouldn't be the contest, but challenge! Like CCC.


Have fun!


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2014, 09:01:51 am »


               


Have fun!




 


Absolutely NOT.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2014, 04:21:05 am »


               
 




I would like to propose an additional theme for a future ABC Challenge:  ...The great voyage...




 


Ok, I can add this to the list for the next cycle. One possible variant on this might be to plan a series of modules over a number of cycles dealing with different stages of the voyage.


 




I like the original scoring better.   ':ph34r:'




 


It would certainly have the advantage of maximal simplicity, and as is becoming apparent, a more complex system is more likely to be controversial, insofar as it has more details to quibble over, and more likely to create perverse incentives as people seek ways to game the system (always a potential problem when dealing with gamers). The disadvantage would be that it is quite rigid. You either abide by the rules (one award) or you do not (the other) with no gradations or flexibility. That was what I was trying to avoid, but it may not be worth it.


 


 




Player A and player B both make ABC mods.  Player A's module is objectively better in every way...




 


How is this relevant at all? Once more, you appear to be assuming (or assuming others will assume) some sort of connection between the points/awards given and the module itself. This makes no sense. The points are awarded to the author, not the module, and evaluate the author's success in submitting a module (or rather modules since it was planned for them to accumulate over multiple cycles for prolific contributors) in accord with the contest rules. They do not evaluate the quality of the module itself, a completely separate issue. If the penalty for buggyness were removed (and though there may be other justifications it was in fact only included for the special reason stated above) there would be no connection whatsoever between the two. If anything one might have some reasons to expect a module submitted late, with extra CC, or whatever, would actually be better than one that was not. If indeed it turns out that people are being so illogical as to make the assumption you expect, surely the obvious solution is simply to clarify the actual significance of the points?

 

Again, I am certainly not committed to the proposition that the points system is particularly good, but all your problems with it seemed to be based on this curious assumption, which does not inspire confidence in your opinions concerning it.

 

To return to a more relevant example, X and Y each make an ABC module. It is irrelevant to the example which module is better. X submits on time, and in order to do so, makes some sort of sacrifice. Maybe his module is not as good as it could have been with a little more time, maybe he missed out on some sleep staying up late working on it, maybe something else. It does not matter for our purposes what the sacrifice was, just that he made one to abide by the rules. Y submits late instead, avoiding an equivalent sacrifice. We will assume no other rules are relevant in this case: both modules are in accord with the theme and abide by CC limitations. Both get the same award. How is this fair? How is this not a possible cause of resentment for anyone who chooses to take the awards very seriously?

 

 




I'd have no objection to that.





 


Which would amount to doing away with the ABC entirely since by definition it involves making a module in accord with certain rules. What am I missing here?


 


 




Pride.  It's publicly known they couldn't finish the module on time with the quality needed...





 


Or possibly it would mean that they simply chose to take advantage of the extra time that was in fact available, because it made sense to do so. In any case your proposed system would reduce the incentives to submit on time significantly, even if some incentives might still exist.


 




And no, we're not specially discriminating against those people.  We're giving *everyone* a mulligan.  Can submit it late, use extra CC, not use themes, OR have some bugs.  Just one of those options.  One freebie.  Go past one and you'd start getting worse medals.





 


The problem is that the theme/CC limitations are likely to be a problem only in a few special cases, while the time limitations and the need to avoid bugs are likely to be a problem for everyone, including those special cases. These also need to worry about time and thus labor under a double disadvantage. Not automatically a bad thing if the object is to discourage those violations in particular but it seems to work against the stated purpose of your alternative system of being yet more flexible.


 




I also find it interesting that you're coming at it from the perspective of people planning to break the rules from the start and intentionally planning on turning it late versus having it as a last resort.





 


I come at it from that perspective because your proposed system creates incentives to do precisely that. Also because of your own experience with the original system, in which you chose to treat the deadline for an early submission as the real due date, becoming upset when you proved unable to complete your module by that time. Why, with that example in mind, would I not anticipate that at least some people would treat the effective deadline not as the stated due date but as the latest date they can submit without penalty? This is not a hypothetical problem, something of the kind actually happened.



 




You are overthinking the scoring. It shouldn't be the contest, but challenge! Like CCC.


Have fun!




 


I agree with the general sentiment. Perhaps part of our problem is that it is much harder to make a working module in a short time period than to make a single piece of CC (apparently, anyway, judging from the comparative results of ABC & CCC cycles) with the result that the disciplines imposed by the formal rules, such as they are, seem more significant here.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2014, 12:41:23 am »


               

How is this relevant at all?


 


Your original statement: "If someone is going to get worked up about them, however, they would have every right to regard it as an injustice (albeit a trivial one) if they make sacrifices to abide by all the rules, only to be treated as equal to someone who did not."


1. Person A makes sacrifices to abide by all the rules

2. Person B does not

3. Persons A and B get treated equally

4. Person A is unhappy


You view this as reasonable.  Let's follow that general train of thought:


1. Person A makes sacrifices to make an amazing module

2. Person B makes a mediocre module

3. Persons A and B get treated equally

4. Person A is unhappy


Wouldn't that also be an equally reasonable reaction, according to your logic?  That person A sees that their module is much better but got treated equally to player B and is thus upset, thinking they should get a better award?


 




Once more, you appear to be assuming (or assuming others will assume) some sort of connection between the points/awards given and the module itself....If the penalty for buggyness were removed (and though there may be other justifications it was in fact only included for the special reason stated above) there would be no connection whatsoever between the two.




 


As you yourself point out, one of the current criteria is bugginess.


 


Beyond that, which module would you assume is likely to be better quality?


 


1. Using three or more themes, within CC limits, and on time.


2. Using less or no themes, breaking CC limits, late.


 


Odds are #1, there's a correlation between the author's ability to follow rules and be disciplined and their quality of work.  Sure, it's entirely possible that a module with #2's criteria will be better -- but it's much less likely.


 




To return to a more relevant example, X and Y each make an ABC module. It is irrelevant to the example which module is better. X submits on time, and in order to do so, makes some sort of sacrifice. Maybe his module is not as good as it could have been with a little more time, maybe he missed out on some sleep staying up late working on it, maybe something else. It does not matter for our purposes what the sacrifice was, just that he made one to abide by the rules. Y submits late instead, avoiding an equivalent sacrifice. We will assume no other rules are relevant in this case: both modules are in accord with the theme and abide by CC limitations. Both get the same award. How is this fair? How is this not a possible cause of resentment for anyone who chooses to take the awards very seriously?



 


It's fair for the same reason a person with 100% on every assignment/exam/lab/etc in a class gets the same grade as someone with an 89.5% average.  Both get As.


 


X *knows* there is a margin of error built into the rules -- he decided his pride in getting it in on time was better than taking the extra time.  That's perfectly fine and B is not getting a *better* award than A.  B simply did well enough to earn the *highest* reward, regardless of how A did.


 



We could also bring in person Z who makes zero sacrifices and simply turns in a module half the size of X and still gets the same award of X.  Shouldn't X be angry at Z as well, for taking the "easy" route of making a small module that was easy to finish in time with no sacrifice?  By your logic he would be, no?


 




Which would amount to doing away with the ABC entirely since by definition it involves making a module in accord with certain rules. What am I missing here?




 


That the rules serve mainly as an inspiration and guide the work.


 


Which assignment would you have rather had in high school history?


 


1. Write a 10 page paper on an important historical event


2. Write a 10 page paper on religious conflict in Medieval England


 


#1 leaves a lot of people thinking "Uh...where do I even start?" whereas #2 leaves people thinking "Okay, I know what I need to write about."


 


In other words, we have rules, but they're not really important.  All that's really important is "Did this player make a good effort toward creating something that fits in with the idea of the ABC?"  Which mainly boils down to


 


1. Short time period


 


That's really it.  Everything else is mainly inspiration for people who don't know what to build -- heck, the original ABC had a "wild card" theme which was "Do anything else you want" which is what Siege of the Heavens came under.


 




Or possibly it would mean that they simply chose to take advantage of the extra time that was in fact available, because it made sense to do so. In any case your proposed system would reduce the incentives to submit on time significantly, even if some incentives might still exist.




 


I think it's a fairly strong incentive considering people are only entering the ABC in the FIRST place to show they can make a module in a short time period.  Failing to get it in on time is a big deal for people trying to demonstrate they're capable of doing precisely that.  Serious question -- have you actually seen anything to indicate anyone specifically would TRY to take advantage of the system?


 


1. CaveGnome got his in on time


2. I went catatonic for a week upon realizing I couldn't have my module in *early* at the quality I wanted


3. No one else even submitted at all, let alone submitted late


 




The problem is that the theme/CC limitations are likely to be a problem only in a few special cases, while the time limitations and the need to avoid bugs are likely to be a problem for everyone, including those special cases. These also need to worry about time and thus labor under a double disadvantage. Not automatically a bad thing if the object is to discourage those violations in particular but it seems to work against the stated purpose of your alternative system of being yet more flexible.




 


I'll admit I'm not overly familiar with CC except for things like hak modifications for altering game mechanics.  But presumably CC in this case is mainly going to be new creature models or new tilesets, no?


 


So in effect we're saying "If you REALLY want to invest the time into gazillions of custom models and tilesets then you have no excuse for being late -- you KNOW what you're getting into here."


 


Kind of a "violate the 10 MB limit at your own peril, it's largely there to protect you from yourself."


 




I come at it from that perspective because your proposed system creates incentives to do precisely that. Also because of your own experience with the original system, in which you chose to treat the deadline for an early submission as the real due date, becoming upset when you proved unable to complete your module by that time. Why, with that example in mind, would I not anticipate that at least some people would treat the effective deadline not as the stated due date but as the latest date they can submit without penalty? This is not a hypothetical problem, something of the kind actually happened.




 


Because I literally did the *reverse* of what you're worried about.  I was completely obsessed about getting it in "on time" which to me meant "three days 'early.'"  The shame of not meeting my self-imposed deadline threw me into a catatonic state.


 


I didn't say "Oh well, missed the initial deadline, I still have three days to get it in before I get a penalty," I said "Oh woe is me, all is lost, my shame is eternal, I am a failure for not getting it in on time (aka early)."


 


In conclusion, I'd be fine with a rule system that was "Completion" for


 


1. on time (four weeks to build, two weeks to refine)


2. close to CC limits


3. few bugs


 


Note the lack of the theme as well -- I'd be perfectly fine letting someone who has an idea in mind already participate in the cycle.  And then "honorable mention" for anything else.  We can play "violations" by ear in terms of CC limits and bugs, I think we'll all be able to agree on an egregious violation.


 


All in all, the ABC is about producing a module with reasonable quality in a short building cycle for people to enjoy.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2014, 08:48:50 pm »


               


...Let's follow that general train of thought:


1. Person A makes sacrifices to make an amazing module

2. Person B makes a mediocre module

3. Persons A and B get treated equally

4. Person A is unhappy


Wouldn't that also be an equally reasonable reaction, according to your logic?  That person A sees that their module is much better but got treated equally to player B and is thus upset, thinking they should get a better award?





 


If the matter in which they were being treated equally was an award specifically based on the quality of the module such a reaction would be quite understandable (at least if we leave aside the problem that judging module quality is inevitably going to be based at least to some extent on subjective preferences). If the award were for something else entirely, it would not be.


 

It is certainly possible that there might turn out to be some correlation between module quality and the author's ability to do things like get it in on time. It would not be a reliable correlation, and it still would be a distinct thing from what the points/awards/whatever are based on.

 





X *knows* there is a margin of error built into the rules...We could also bring in person Z who makes zero sacrifices and simply turns in a module half the size of X and still gets the same award of X.  Shouldn't X be angry at Z as well, for taking the "easy" route of making a small module that was easy to finish in time with no sacrifice?  By your logic he would be, no?





 


Z has made a sacrifice of a sort precisely by making a smaller, less ambitious module than he might otherwise have attempted, but it is true that some inequities are inherent in the nature of the process and beyond our power to fix (as I mentioned above, for example, some people, due to their life circumstances, will have more time to work on a module than others, even while nominally operating under the same time limit), and those must simply be accepted as "the breaks" by those choosing to participate. I fail to see why that is a reason for introducing further inequities that can easily be avoided.


 




Serious question -- have you actually seen anything to indicate anyone specifically would TRY to take advantage of the system?





 


I do not think one would have to delve far into the history of online activities to find that there is ample reason, as a general principle, to fear that a system that can be exploited will be, but do I actually need something aside from your own example? At a very specific level you may have done the reverse of what I fear from the award system you proposed (becoming obsessed with being early rather than unconcerned with being late) but more generally you were treating the earliest date with no penalty as the actual due date, and attaching an unanticipated importance to the points being awarded. If it were not for you taking every aspect of every proposed system with such seriousness (and reacting in a seemingly exaggerated way to the incentives of the system actually used), I would be a lot less concerned than I am about making sure any system used will be as equitable as possible and avoid unintended consequences and perverse incentives. You may note that this...


 




All in all, the ABC is about producing a module with reasonable quality in a short building cycle for people to enjoy.  Anything else is just icing on the cake.





 


...is a paraphrase of what everyone else has been saying in response to you:


 




Ideally people would participate because they enjoy trying to make modules under the ABC's limitations or find this a convenient opportunity to make something fun or interesting. Any awards, points, etc. would just be gravy, ideally not something to get too worried about.






 




... and don't take too seriously the points / rewards debate...






 




You are overthinking the scoring. It shouldn't be the contest, but challenge! Like CCC.





 


You are the main party who appears to have a problem seeing the ABC in the manner you agree it should be seen.


 


Since I cannot be certain that no one will take any awards system with unwonted seriousness, its comparative unimportance does not absolve me of the responsibility of implementing as fair and reasonable a system as I am able. I am not yet certain exactly what that would be, though I am mulling over a few ideas. Given the negative results of the experiment with the points (which gave you incentives to act in a manner completely opposite to that intended, and that so far as I know was not particularly helpful to anyone), I certainly cannot see continuing that, at least not without substantial modifications.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2014, 05:49:54 am »


               


...is a paraphrase of what everyone else has been saying in response to you:




 


No, it's a paraphrase of what we've been saying to *you.*


 


You're the one who wanted to come up with this point system in the first place (with good intentions, don't get me wrong).

You're the one who wanted to put in penalties for various reasons.

You're the one who doesn't want to cut any slack within those penalties.

You're the one who is assuming people will try to exploit the system.


 


I was completely fine with the original non-point system (hell, I didn't even think would be an "award" for participating in the first place).


I've been trying to make the "rules" more flexible and forgiving.


I've been assuming the people who would participate in this aren't the type of people to try to exploit the system.


 


If you recall, you yourself asked:


 


"Which would amount to doing away with the ABC entirely since by definition it involves making a module in accord with certain rules. What am I missing here?"


 


in response to the comments CaveGnome/Werelynx/I made.  We don't care about having a strict set of rules.  We don't really care about having any rules at all.


 


I'm very concerned about the system of rules if we *have* a system, but I don't care about having a system of rules in the first place.


 




If the matter in which they were being treated equally was an award specifically based on the quality of the module such a reaction would be quite understandable (at least if we leave aside the problem that judging module quality is inevitably going to be based at least to some extent on subjective preferences). If the award were for something else entirely, it would not be.




 


Part of the current criteria IS (or was) based on the quality of the module.  And even if it wasn't, one could easily imagine a situation where player A submits a superb module using one less theme than player B's module and receives a worse score as a result.  And in our situation player A could very easily be upset with how the contest rules are set up and feel it was an injustice that his module (or he specifically as you want to insist) received a worse score despite the sacrifices they made in building their module.


 


In other words, people can easily be upset because they feel the scoring system isn't fair or accurate and it would be entirely understandable by your logic.  You keep focusing on player A being "better" than player B in terms of following the rules and A being upset that B got an equal award...but player A could also be upset about the rules because he DIDN'T get a better award despite having a better module (with both players following the rules).  Or, more succinctly, people can always find some injustice to be upset about if they want.  And by focusing so hard on putting some players on a pedestal above others you're making it more likely for some players on the pedestal already to wonder why they're not getting a better award than OTHERS on the pedestal.


 


Hence why CaveGnome/Werelynx/myself/etc want it to be more along the lines of "Did you produce something for the ABC?  Great!" or having forgiving rules if we have them.


 




Z has made a sacrifice of a sort precisely by making a smaller, less ambitious module than he might otherwise have attempted, but it is true that some inequities are inherent in the nature of the process and beyond our power to fix (as I mentioned above, for example, some people, due to their life circumstances, will have more time to work on a module than others, even while nominally operating under the same time limit), and those must simply be accepted as "the breaks" by those choosing to participate. I fail to see why that is a reason for introducing further inequities that can easily be avoided.




 


No, Z DIDN'T make a sacrifice.  He's just being lazy and exploiting the rules as you think everyone wants to do '<img'>


 


It would be like me producing a 3 area simple module thrown together in like 3-4 hours of work for the next ABC module that nevertheless meets all the requirements and gets a perfect score while others slave away for a month and a half to produce high quality modules that receive the same score.  To quote you...


 


"How is this fair? How is this not a possible cause of resentment for anyone who chooses to take the awards very seriously?"


 


By your own logic, don't you think some people would be resentful if I got a perfect score for an awful module that still followed all the rules?  Wouldn't I be making a mockery out of the system?


 



Given the negative results of the experiment with the points (which gave you incentives to act in a manner completely opposite to that intended, and that so far as I know was not particularly helpful to anyone), I certainly cannot see continuing that, at least not without substantial modifications.


 


I think we're completely agreed on that, at least.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_rogueknight333

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2014, 08:50:28 pm »


               


You're the one who wanted to come up with this point system in the first place...




 


As frequently stated, this was done precisely to make a rule system more flexible and forgiving than the alternatives, something you claim to also want. The alternative it was replacing, and that you now apparently advocate returning to was: one award if a module is completed in accord with all the rules that are being applied, a lesser award if it is not. This has other advantages but it is the opposite of flexible and forgiving. Which extreme do you propose to advocate today? It will be difficult to go to both.


 




You're the one who is assuming people will try to exploit the system.





 


My position is that it is reasonable to take into account the possibility that people might try to exploit the system. By your logic someone who straps on a seatbelt before driving off in a car or who puts on a helmet before getting on a motorcycle is assuming he is going to be in an accident, rather than taking a prudent precaution against something that is not expected but still very well could happen.

 




If you recall, you yourself asked:


 


"Which would amount to doing away with the ABC entirely since by definition it involves making a module in accord with certain rules. What am I missing here?"


 


in response to the comments CaveGnome/Werelynx/I made.  We don't care about having a strict set of rules.  We don't really care about having any rules at all.





 


The remark you quote was in response to a very specific statement by you (and in response to no one else) whose meaning seemed in need of clarification. You appear to be trying to take it out of context in such a way as to utterly distort its actual significance. As for whether it is you or I who has more badly misunderstood the statements made by other parties, I shall leave it to the parties in question to clarify, supposing they see any point in doing so. If in fact there is, as you claim, a general consensus that my attempts to organize the ABC serve no purpose whatsoever, I am certainly capable of ceasing them, saying nothing more on the subject, and doing nothing further, and would thereby be spared a great deal of trouble.


 


Alternatively, if I am not to take your statement about not needing "any rules at all" quite so literally, and you merely mean to say something like, "The details are not that important, don't worry about them," than obsessing over all sorts of petty details as you have been doing seems a poor way of making that point. Your own behavior is the most obvious obstacle standing in the way of my adopting the attitude to the rules you claim to want.


 




Part of the current criteria IS (or was) based on the quality of the module...





 


A very small part, which can easily be eliminated if (as is apparently the case) it is a source of trouble. As for everything you say after this point, I have difficulty making any sort of sense of it. Once again, you are talking about people worrying about the relative quality of modules in a context where that is not relevant. It is as if Student A should object to Student B's athletic scholarship on the grounds that A has better grades: it is an athletic scholarship, so grades do not matter (or not very much anyway - some scholarships of the kind do demand B meet certain minimum standards in terms of grades). The relevant point is that B is a good athlete. One might perhaps argue for doing away with athletic scholarships altogether, but expecting people with no athletic ability to be awarded such scholarships just like those who do would be bizarre.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 10:24:45 pm »


               


As frequently stated, this was done precisely to make a rule system more flexible and forgiving than the alternatives, something you claim to also want. The alternative it was replacing, and that you now apparently advocate returning to was: one award if a module is completed in accord with all the rules that are being applied, a lesser award if it is not. This has other advantages but it is the opposite of flexible and forgiving. Which extreme do you propose to advocate today? It will be difficult to go to both.




 


Do you realize that your system was in fact still "one award if a module is completed in accord with all the rules that are being applied, a lesser award if it is not?"


 



Either you get full points or you don't.  Getting a 399 compared to 400 (if we assume, say, 400 points for full credit) is a massive difference, getting 398 compared to 399 is irrelevant, you've already broken out of the full points award.


 



The only way to make it flexible and forgiving would be something like if anything over 380 got the best award, anything over 360 got the next best award, etc.  Don't quibble over the exact numbers.  That way a minor mistake or two could be forgiven -- but you seem stridently opposed to such an idea.  In your system quite literally *zero* mistakes are forgiven (with the exception of bugs that don't make the module "seriously buggy"), they all cost you points (everything from not enough themes to extra CC to lateness).


 


I think the fundamental difference here is you seem to be viewing this from the angle "Hey, I still let you submit something despite not following the rules perfectly for a lesser award" but that ALREADY existed in the old system.  All you're adding is distinguishing among the lesser awards -- but even that causes problems because a person who uses 2 themes and submits on time will receive less points than a person with 3 themes who submits 4 days late.  Technically the second player broke the rules while the first did not but the second player got a better score.


 



If in fact there is, as you claim, a general consensus that my attempts to organize the ABC serve no purpose whatsoever, I am certainly capable of ceasing them, saying nothing more on the subject, and doing nothing further, and would thereby be spared a great deal of trouble.

 


Alternatively, if I am not to take your statement about not needing "any rules at all" quite so literally, and you merely mean to say something like, "The details are not that important, don't worry about them," than obsessing over all sorts of petty details as you have been doing seems a poor way of making that point. Your own behavior is the most obvious obstacle standing in the way of my adopting the attitude to the rules you claim to want.




 


Here's the point I believe the three of us were trying to make:


 


1. The main benefit of the ABC is providing a general structure for building


2. This structure mainly consists of a time limit, theme(s), and CC limit


3. That structure is important but as general guidelines rather than hard and fast rules


4. If someone wants to use 10% more CC than the limit, it's not important.  If someone wants to use 10 times the limit, then we can talk


5. The ultimate goal is to encourage builders to produce modules that actually get released through a short building period rather than sit in limbo and (usually) eventually die.


 


As a result, we all greatly appreciate your efforts regarding #2 in trying to figure out an appropriate time limit, themes to use, and reasonable CC limits.  But we don't want to discourage people from participating if they feel they're going to need to bend one of the rules slightly.  Yes, it's technically a 1 point difference between using CC correctly and using an extra MB.  But it's the equivalent of everyone else getting a gold medal and you getting a silver.  The quantitative difference might be small but the qualitative difference is massive.


 


To phrase it more succinctly: we want rules as general guidelines, not as things to be strictly enforced (again, look at the whole "Wild Card" theme of the original ABC).


 




As for everything you say after this point, I have difficulty making any sort of sense of it. Once again, you are talking about people worrying about the relative quality of modules in a context where that is not relevant. It is as if Student A should object to Student B's athletic scholarship on the grounds that A has better grades: it is an athletic scholarship, so grades do not matter (or not very much anyway - some scholarships of the kind do demand B meet certain minimum standards in terms of grades). The relevant point is that B is a good athlete. One might perhaps argue for doing away with athletic scholarships altogether, but expecting people with no athletic ability to be awarded such scholarships just like those who do would be bizarre.




 


Let's use your metaphor, then.


 



Imagine a scholarship to a school is based on fulfilling at least three out of four things: at least a 3.0 GPA, being on an athletic team, being an officer of a university club, and volunteering for at least 15 hours a week.  Student A has all four things while student B is not an officer of a university club.  According to your logic, Student A is within his rights of feeling an injustice has been done because he and student B are being treated the same scholarship wise (even though the cutoff for the scholarship only requires 3 out of the 4 things).


 


Before I continue, do you agree that this is a fair representation of your position?  That A feels he should get something more than B in this situation?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2014, 04:57:59 pm »


               

And why won't you let the actual players to rate the modules?


 


Remove the CC limits and keep just time. If someone manages to make his module withing given time, why matter he used 500MB of custom content? Make a starter CC content to be enough for anyone who want to make some module and you don't have to mess with it anymore.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2712
  • Karma: +0/-0
Future of the ABC
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2014, 05:58:22 pm »


               


And why won't you let the actual players to rate the modules?




 


They can on the Vault where it's uploaded.  This is more a gold star for participating in the ABC.


 




Remove the CC limits and keep just time. If someone manages to make his module withing given time, why matter he used 500MB of custom content? Make a starter CC content to be enough for anyone who want to make some module and you don't have to mess with it anymore.




 


Two main reasons I can think of off-hand:


 


1, using CC can be a trap for less experienced builders who wind up going down the rabbit hole and spend half the time picking out CC and implementing it rather than actually building.


 


2, most people probably don't want to download 500 MB of CC for a 30-60 minute module (which most ABC modules have been so far).