Siege of the Heavens: Shifting, Premades, and Greater Sanctuary

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Siege of the Heavens is an max level action module with scripted boss fights.  If you're not familiar with it you can find more information here and here.

One of my main goals with this project was to change as little as possible -- wanted to work within the default game mechanics as much as possible given that it's a shorter adventure and I didn't think people would want to learn an entirely new ruleset for it.  Pretty much everything I did was passive benefits or toned things down.  My goal was that you *should* be able to play without reading up on the changes and do just fine if you wanted.

I'm working on the second half (all bosses are designed and work is progressing on implementing them) but I'm still trying to make sure all the mechanical systems are where I want them.  Planning on releasing v1_07 to fix a bug where shapeshifted PCs don't have their items stripped and disabling Greater Sanctuary, but wanted to talk about three specific things quickly first.

Shifting
I didn't touch druid or shifter shapeshifting at all.   Pretty much figured Dragon Shape would probably be viable, most people shapeshifting would be abusing the monk AC bonus, and that it wasn't worth trying to balance all the shapes or something given its niche.  It's not exactly a popular class anyway.

That said, I found myself wondering whether enough people want to be able to play shifters that it would be worth adjusting at least slightly.  I gave it a whirl while testing something else and discovered some interesting things -- for example, something like the Risen Lord form only has about 40 AB versus mobs with 60 AC (but the Risen Lord's AC was generally fine due to how I implemented items).  That would cause issues.  Dragon form seemed fine on its own stat wise but I worry about issues with pathing on some of the more movement intense fights.

Was basically considering doing something like an AB buff and a slight AC buff to all forms but dragon shape that would be dependent on Druid/Shifter level and that would not be activated if monk levels existed.

But I was wondering whether enough people even cared to be worth changing.  And if they did care, if people who tried it had more specific ideas for how to make shapeshifting viable.  I'm not really a fan of shapeshifting in NWN but I'm willing to try to make it more viable for those who like it if I can manage to do so without too much hassle.

Premade Characters
I had someone request that I include multiple premade characters for people to play with if they're not used to building epic characters.  Currently there's a premade fighter, but I could include something like a premade rogue, a premade cleric, and premade wizard if people wanted.  Maybe more, maybe less.  Any opinions?

Greater Sanctuary
This spell can obviously be very abused.  Originally I simply made it a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for boss fights -- if you Greater Sanctuary, the boss simply resets which means you can avoid dying in some cases.  However, this apparently caused more confusion than benefit and thus I'm planning on simply disabling the spell.

If people have other ideas I'd be glad to hear them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               I do not know, but I imagine there would be at least few people interested in playing shifters here since it is a class that tends to be more interesting to play at epic levels. The big problem Shifters have in Siege is that the AB of most forms is just terrible relative to the AC they are up against (Dragon Shape's AB is barely adequate and the rest is worse) and most special powers are not that useful (Dragon breath would be a handy damage dealer I think but not much else comes to mind). Defensively they are not that badly off (especially if combined with monk) so I am not sure that really needs any adjusting. Some sort of AB bonus based on Shifter levels might help make them more viable.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Hmm.  Yeah, AB/damage bonus based on Druid/Shifter level should work -- I suspect they'll still wind up inferior to a pure fighter anyway but they should be viable.  Probably give 2/3 of the AB/damage bonus if monk levels are present.  May give a small AC bump and remove that if monk levels are present.

Another thought -- I previously just ignored familiars/animal companions/summons.  However, I could give them some buffs based on master level, heal them to full when the master heals, and reduce the damage they take from AoE attacks (single target abilities are already set to only target PCs).  Kind of wonder whether it's worth doing, though -- it would really mainly be for druid/rangers since the animal companion is usually considered a big part of those classes.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Another thought -- I previously just ignored familiars/animal companions/summons.  However, I could give them some buffs based on master level...it would really mainly be for druid/rangers since the animal companion is usually considered a big part of those classes.

My first thought is that this sounds like it is heading down the path of massive tweaking of everything that you say you want to avoid. On thinking about it, however, I realized that with Drown, Harm and Finger of Death all disabled and Sunburst made less powerful (no blinding) you have left the Druid's arsenal of high level offensive spells a bit decimated, so perhaps they could use some compensating bonus. Offhand I do not see that Rangers really require anything special, except maybe a recommendation to include Outsider as one of their Favored Enemies (since - I believe - that is the only FE doing anything for one in Siege).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

rogueknight333 wrote...

On thinking about it, however, I realized that with Drown, Harm and Finger of Death all disabled and Sunburst made less powerful (no blinding) you have left the Druid's arsenal of high level offensive spells a bit decimated, so perhaps they could use some compensating bonus.

Yeah.  They still have Storm of Vengeance, Firestorms for the bugged 40d6 default, Flamestrike/Ice Storm/Inferno, and Dragon Shape...but in general they don't have the raw casting of mages or the melee buffs of clerics.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Offhand I do not see that Rangers really require anything special, except maybe a recommendation to include Outsider as one of their Favored Enemies (since - I believe - that is the only FE doing anything for one in Siege).

Yeah, Rangers will be fine regardless (and yes, they should definitely pick Outsiders first -- but I'd suspect that should be reasonably obvious if they're building a character for Siege) -- and even if they don't have Outsider at their favored enemy they'll be fine.  They still have the BAB of a Fighter.  Mainly would be for Druids.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 15 octobre 2013 - 04:09 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               I'll just note that I don't play many shifters. But, I started and then gave up on SotH partly because I initially tried playing with a shifter toon. Although, for me, it was the lack of respect for immunities that was frustrating. In other words, part of the fun of playing shifters is choosing an available form based on the opponents one is seeing and the damage they do. If I am fighting someone who does lots of fire damage, that opponent should be forced to change tactics against red dragon (or wyrmling, for that matter) form,  azer chief, etc. But, because so much elemental damage is simulated by magical damage, shifting loses much of its flavor. Ultimately, I spawned in a ring of magical damage immunity and called it even, obviously a sub-optimal approach, but there it is.

(I also had issues with the grinding-away-at-bosses-with-mega-HP aspect of gameplay and what seemed to be an incentive to design toons tweaked to get +1% here or +2% there of some immunity or combat advantage. Not that there is any real problem with that as an approach to video game mechanics, but it didn't end up feeling like NWN to me. Don't misunderstand: SohT is an impressive work and I did appreciate the nicely designed areas and very clever scripting for many encounters. It just may be targeting a different sort of player.)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 17 octobre 2013 - 02:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

I also had issues with the grinding-away-at-bosses-with-mega-HP aspect of gameplay and what seemed to be an incentive to design toons tweaked to get +1% here or +2% there of some immunity or combat advantage.

Two notes about this:

1, I suspect the "grinding-away-at-bosses-with-mega-HP" was largely due to you being a shifter and the very low offense they have in Siege due to terrible AB (only a dragon would be able to hit anything reasonably and even then it's far, far worse than a level 40 fighter -- which is one of the reasons I'm thinking of applying a broad buff to shifters).  The first boss, for example, can be killed in 2 minutes as a weapon master with a 2H.  Same boss might take 6-7 minutes with a dexterity based monk (still has about 50 AB) -- but they'd take almost no damage.  Trading offense for defense does make fights take longer but less chance of you dying.  Trying to do it with a 40 AB shifter, however (non-Dragon Form), would be...incredibly painful and would probably take like 20 minutes or something.

Now, maybe you think even 2ish minutes is a long time for a fight.  However, if that's true, then I really need to compact a lot of stuff into, say, a one minute window!  And not only does that tend to make things more twitch based, but it also does not work well with the round system and means you often don't have enough numbers to make the inherent RNG average out.  How long of a fight are you comfortable with?

2, the reverse is true.  The module was intentionally made to be doable with characters not tweaked to be optimal.  It is true that because the module isn't faceroll and combats can last longer than 10 seconds that gaining small advantages can help, but they are not required.  The fights ultimately boil down to figuring out what to do and executing it while not dying.  Having 1% more HP won't let you ignore Charion's Flame Barrage, for example.  2% more damage won't let you kill Captain Xer without having to deal with his adds.  The only time output/defense are even remotely tested is Selenoth and even that is tuned exceedingly generously now.  And that only boils down to "Did you even bother freeing the victims?" at this point.

This is partially because I discovered a conumdrum of sorts.  The better players could take their sweet time with the victims and could survive in the final phase anyway.  The less skilled players would try to get on the victims quickly (which was less quickly/effective than the better players when the better players tried) but weren't good enough to survive in the final phase.  It effectively punished worse players twice -- once by the boss healing more and once because those players already had more trouble surviving at the end.

MrZork wrote...

I'll just note that I don't play many shifters. But, I started and then gave up on SotH partly because I initially tried playing with a shifter toon. Although, for me, it was the lack of respect for immunities that was frustrating. In other words, part of the fun of playing shifters is choosing an available form based on the opponents one is seeing and the damage they do. If I am fighting someone who does lots of fire damage, that opponent should be forced to change tactics against red dragon (or wyrmling, for that matter) form, azer chief, etc. But, because so much elemental damage is simulated by magical damage, shifting loses much of its flavor.

What you're describing is precisely why the damage was changed to magical.

Imagine Charion as a Shifter if he did Fire damage as would seem appropriate (so Red Wyrming/Azer Chief/etc).

Q: What should you do when Charion casts Flame Barrage?
A: Ignore it

Q: What should you do when he begins a Cone of Fire?
A: Ignore it.

How about Selenoth (Green Wyrming/Black Wyrmling/etc)?

Q: What should you do when Selenoth casts a web?
A: Ignore it because it doesn't matter if you get trapped in an Acid Cloud

Q: What should you do when Selenoth spits acid?
A: Ignore it

And so on.

NWN throws around 100% immunities like candy on top of an additive immunity system (meaning 50% immunity and 50% immunity gives you 100% immunity rather than 75%).  I would be perfectly fine with Shifters being able to choose forms for a 25% immunity based on what the boss is doing, for example.  But not 100%.  That changes it from "Hey, if I shift intelligently I can make surviving the fight easier" to "Hey, I can ignore most or all of the fight mechanics."

This is also a problem with RDDs and 100% fire immunity, mages with Shadow Shield/Elemental Shield (a mage with full plate/tower shield and Elemental Shield would have 75% immunity to fire), clerics with Negative Energy Protection, feats like Energy Resistance, and probably some more I'm forgetting off-hand.

I'd also point out that the default AI doesn't change tactics based on its enemy -- shift into Red Wyrmling and an enemy mage will happily keep throwing Fireballs at you.  Only enemy players would actually change tactics -- and a typical tactic is to use weapons/spells that bypass the whole issue (like trying to do magical/positive/divine damage since there's no immunities available for those).

MrZork wrote...

Ultimately, I spawned in a ring of magical damage immunity and called it even, obviously a sub-optimal approach, but there it is.

Definitely sub-optimal in that the damage of the abilities was pretty carefully tuned.  I will admit I didn't consider Shifters specifically with tuning but since they have d8 HP and are guaranteed to be wearing armor of some sort and can use a shield I figured they would be fine (since they'll still get immunity bonuses from those when shifted).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 18 octobre 2013 - 02:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               (Sorry I lost track of this thread for a couple days. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.)

First, just a quick note that the peculiar shifter mongrel I concocted was focused on Risen Lord form and, in SotH with the gear there in the module, typically had a fully buffed shifted AB right around 54 (depending on die rolls for empowered bulls, etc.) and AC around 71. With the Siege weapon, he was doing typically 13 fire + another 39 or so from the scythe, and more on the 18-20 / x4 crits. Not that that is impressive or anything, but I am thinking he was in the ball park, AB-wise, at least as long as his major short-term buffs lasted, which was generally a little over 20 rounds.

(The ironic aspect of this was that I picked that shifter to play in SotH because I wanted to see how it performed in a level 40 environment, knowing that it is quite weak until late in the build.)

BTW, I agree that the all-or-none immunities that shifters get would cause balance issues for single-damage-type opponents. That's part of the fun of playing shifters - particularly with elemental damage, they are often effective at nerfing a particular attack. That usually comes at the cost of not being very effective against that same attacker if the attack is part of a build theme with corresponding defenses. E.g., if the Fire Giant Lord get's free Firebrands all day long, then a shifter has a good defense for that, at the cost of not getting much use out of fire breath damage or flaming waraxe or whatever against that opponent. In SotH, I wasn't expecting to do any fire damage to the fire-themed boss. I only shifted to red wyrmling form so that I could more safely observe his tactics, thinking that he would at least have to do something different to hurt my toon. Sadly, no, because he isn't really a fire boss, he's the boss of massive magical damage. :-( My preference would be for the bosses to have their gruesome theme attack, but also have a less gruesome fallback when that isn't working. E.g. the Fire Giant Lord still has his sword and a decent AB, so he isn't helpless against fire-immune PCs.

Anyway, I may roll up a different toon and try SotH again at some point.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 19 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               FYI, currently planning the following for 1_07...

- Greater Sanctuary disabled
- 4 AC per 5 Druid/Ranger level for animal companions
- 1 AB/damage per 4 Druid/Ranger levels for animal companions
- Haste/Mind Spell Immunity for animal companions
- 2 bonus to all stats initially plus an additional 1 bonus every 4 Druid/Ranger levels
- Animal companions take 10% damage from boss abilities and are healed with the healing flask
- All animal companions get Weapon Finesse
- Widget introduced to help control them (the Minion Control script linked in my signature)
- Shapeshifting as a Druid/Shifter gives 1 AB/damage per 3 Druid levels past 4 and 2 AB per 3 Shifter levels along with 1 Natural Armor AC per 4 Druid/Shifter levels
- These bonuses are reduced by 50% for builds that have levels other than Druid/Shifter
- Dragon Shape disabled -- concerned about issues in future boss fights due to size

Still not sure about premade characters.  If people want them, what type of characters do they want?  Someone previously mentioned rogue, for example -- but that could be a 1H dex rogue, a dual-wielding dex rogue, a sword and board dex rogue, a 2H strength rogue, a dual-wielding strength rogue, and a sword and board strength rogue even sticking with "pure 40 rogue" as the general build.

If anyone particularly interested in Shifters wants to help test these changes feel free to shoot me an email at balkothwarcraft at gmail dot com.

MrZork wrote...

First, just a quick note that the peculiar shifter mongrel I concocted was focused on Risen Lord form and, in SotH with the gear there in the module, typically had a fully buffed shifted AB right around 54 (depending on die rolls for empowered bulls, etc.) and AC around 71.  With the Siege weapon, he was doing typically 13 fire + another 39 or so from the scythe, and more on the 18-20 / x4 crits. Not that that is impressive or anything, but I am thinking he was in the ball park, AB-wise, at least as long as his major short-term buffs lasted, which was generally a little over 20 rounds.

Somes like some kind of custom build for Risen Lord specifically?  Probably Druid/Shifter/Cleric?

FWIW, a fighter with a Scythe would have 58 AB and be doing 27 + 6 + 5 + 26 = 64 damage per hit.  The 4 AB bonus alone versus a 60 AC mob (54 vs 60 compared to 58 vs 60) is about a 40% damage improvement.  So overall a pure fighter would be doing about 67% more damage.

The fact that people try to make specific builds around specific forms only makes my job harder in this case for Shifters.  Just created and tested an 8 Druid/10 Shifter/22 WM build focused on Risen Lord.  Got 52 constant AB with buffs and 52 damage per hit with 16-20/x5.  Amusingly enough, the way merging works and the way Siege weapons are designed made wielding a Heavy Flail the best weapon choice for max damage.  Could have also used a 1H Bludgeoning weapon to get 15% more immunity in exchange for less damage done if I wanted.

MrZork wrote...

In SotH, I wasn't expecting to do any fire damage to the fire-themed boss. I only shifted to red wyrmling form so that I could more safely observe his tactics, thinking that he would at least have to do something different to hurt my toon. Sadly, no, because he isn't really a fire boss, he's the boss of massive magical damage. :-(

To be fair, all bosses are the boss of massive magical damage '>

In an "ideal" world, I wouldn't object to bosses doing "proper" damage and shifters being able to (and expected to) change forums to counter the type of damage -- potentially multiple times per fight for different attacks.  But in that ideal world we'd be talking like a 25% defensive bonus or something, not 100%.  In this case, making attacks magical damage really only hurts Shifters -- everything generally only has immunity against one damage type anyway (fire or shadow mainly).  And I really am trying to avoid getting into endless tweaking here.

MrZork wrote...

My preference would be for the bosses to have their gruesome theme attack, but also have a less gruesome fallback when that isn't working. E.g. the Fire Giant Lord still has his sword and a decent AB, so he isn't helpless against fire-immune PCs.

That sounds like it would basically reduce fights down to basic hack'n'slash tank'n'spank "Boss just has high HP/AB/damage" for Shifters, no?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
- Dragon Shape disabled -- concerned about issues in future boss fights due to size

I think I understand the issues here, but that would be sort of a shame for some builds, and really unfortunate for pure or near-pure druids. I don't know what all is involved, but you might consider the approach that many modules use for Dragon Knight, where the dragon model used is a smaller one, so that it doesn't get stuck as often. Presumably, the same trick would work in polymorph.2da by changing the appearance entry. Maybe that's only possible for modules with CEP or other HAK packs, though. I don't know if there is a more manageable dragon among the standard NWN resources.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

First, just a quick note that the peculiar shifter mongrel I concocted was focused on Risen Lord form and, in SotH with the gear there in the module, typically had a fully buffed shifted AB right around 54 (depending on die rolls for empowered bulls, etc.) and AC around 71.  With the Siege weapon, he was doing typically 13 fire + another 39 or so from the scythe, and more on the 18-20 / x4 crits. Not that that is impressive or anything, but I am thinking he was in the ball park, AB-wise, at least as long as his major short-term buffs lasted, which was generally a little over 20 rounds.

Somes like some kind of custom build for Risen Lord specifically?  Probably Druid/Shifter/Cleric?

Close. My experimental build was a druid 5/shifter 11/wiz 24. Worse BAB, but I have Moskwa's PnP Tenser's in my override, which is where the temporary AB boost comes from. (I know it isn't standard NWN, but I have it because the PW I play at uses it and it's what made me want to design this build.)

MagicalMaster wrote...
FWIW, a fighter with a Scythe would have 58 AB and be doing 27 + 6 + 5 + 26 = 64 damage per hit.  The 4 AB bonus alone versus a 60 AC mob (54 vs 60 compared to 58 vs 60) is about a 40% damage improvement.  So overall a pure fighter would be doing about 67% more damage.

I totally agree that it's easy to build a toon that does more straight melee damage than the toon I played. If I were looking to play a pure melee character, I wouldn't have bothered with a shifter. However, whether a pure fighter would be doing more overall damage than this toon isn't so clear cut. This toon is also doing reciprocal shield damage when he is hit and has the option to do some casting, as needed and EW if he is leaking HP too fast. Obviously, SotH has nerfed the damage done by shields to the point of uselessness against extreme HP bosses, but the build goal was that it could be an effective option.

BTW, just for my edification, is your example pure fighter a max STR half-orc? Just curious, because I was having a hard time getting that 2H STR damage with a non-half-orc. Or maybe I missed a STR item in the shop...

MagicalMaster wrote...
The fact that people try to make specific builds around specific forms only makes my job harder in this case for Shifters.  Just created and tested an 8 Druid/10 Shifter/22 WM build focused on Risen Lord.  Got 52 constant AB with buffs and 52 damage per hit with 16-20/x5.  Amusingly enough, the way merging works and the way Siege weapons are designed made wielding a Heavy Flail the best weapon choice for max damage.  Could have also used a 1H Bludgeoning weapon to get 15% more immunity in exchange for less damage done if I wanted.

I was using a shield along with the dwarven waraxe, which I think equaled the highest bonuses for 1H weapons. Initially, I flail or quarterstaff, but decided that more defense was going to be needed. And, the bonus damage from any SotH weapon should stack with the +5 scythe's piercing-slashing damage.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
My preference would be for the bosses to have their gruesome theme attack, but also have a less gruesome fallback when that isn't working. E.g. the Fire Giant Lord still has his sword and a decent AB, so he isn't helpless against fire-immune PCs.

That sounds like it would basically reduce fights down to basic hack'n'slash tank'n'spank "Boss just has high HP/AB/damage" for Shifters, no?

Not sure what you mean here. Depending on how broad your definitions are, all bosses are subject to that categorization, except possibly casters who actually use an interesting variety of spells, which is somewhat rare, presumably due to the complexity of the needed AI scripting. All I am saying is that the boss needn't always rely on doing the same damage against every opponent and having a toon with some variability in his defensive abilities is an advantage against one-trick-pony bosses, as it should be.

If you mean that a shifter's resistance or immunity to a given elemental damage with a given form would make most bosses monotonous melee bosses, I can see that point. However, it's going to be difficult to avoid having players engage in repetitious behavior when fighting 10,000 HP bosses, whether the boss melees or has a spell-like ability that he uses repeatedly.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Re: Patch notes -- some of those values are being adjusted for the Druid/Shifter bonuses, so don't take those as a final verdict or something.

MrZork wrote...

I think I understand the issues here, but that would be sort of a shame for some builds, and really unfortunate for pure or near-pure druids.

How so?

Part of the problem with Dragon Shape (in addition to size issues) is that it overshadows (get it?) the other feats and renders them irrelevant.  I'm buffing the bejeezus out of the other forms which means both Animal Form and Elemental Form should work very well for Druids instead of needing Dragon Shape to not completely suck while shifted.

In general power terms, the main/only reason I'm buffing animal companions is to help pure or near-pure Druids so they'll also have that.

MrZork wrote...

I don't know what all is involved, but you might consider the approach that many modules use for Dragon Knight, where the dragon model used is a smaller one, so that it doesn't get stuck as often. Presumably, the same trick would work in polymorph.2da by changing the appearance entry. Maybe that's only possible for modules with CEP or other HAK packs, though. I don't know if there is a more manageable dragon among the standard NWN resources.

I would be happy to do something like this if it is possible, but I believe it is not possible without changing the polymorph.2da.  All standard dragons are the same general size as far as I know.

MrZork wrote...

This toon is also doing reciprocal shield damage when he is hit and has the option to do some casting, as needed and EW if he is leaking HP too fast. Obviously, SotH has nerfed the damage done by shields to the point of uselessness against extreme HP bosses, but the build goal was that it could be an effective option.

I think you're vastly underestimating the power of the damage shields.  A level 24 wizard would reflect 14.5 average damage per hit -- if a boss is hitting you, say, four times a round (assume misses from Improved Invisibility) that's an extra 58 damage per round.  Four rounds of that is basically equivalent to a maximized IGMS -- so effectively dealing an extra maximized IGMS every four rounds with a level four spell (five if extended).

MrZork wrote...

BTW, just for my edification, is your example pure fighter a max STR half-orc? Just curious, because I was having a hard time getting that 2H STR damage with a non-half-orc. Or maybe I missed a STR item in the shop...

No, I always tune around human builds.

17 base Str
10 from leveling
7 from Great Str
34 total (12 modifier)
+2 from ring/ring/gloves/belt
+4 from helm
46 total (18 modifier)

18 Str modifier with Scythe = 27 damage
6 damage from EWD
5 damage from base scythe damage
26 damage from bonus damage dice
64 damage total

MrZork wrote...

And, the bonus damage from any SotH weapon should stack with the +5 scythe's piercing-slashing damage.

Not quite -- if you use a Scythe, for example, you have...

1d12 piercing
1d12 slashing
1d12 magic
1d12 divine

The +5 enhancement damage will NOT stack with the 1d12 slashing.  They're both considered the same type (Slashing) and only one actually applies.

If you use a bludgeoning weapon that has Bludgeoning/Piercing as the damage bonus types you would get extra damage -- but I believe the only weapon with that is the Morningstar.  Incidentally, I am now changing it to Piercing/Slashing to keep it in line with the other weapons.

MrZork wrote...

Depending on how broad your definitions are, all bosses are subject to that categorization, except possibly casters who actually use an interesting variety of spells, which is somewhat rare, presumably due to the complexity of the needed AI scripting.

I mean that ultimately boss mechanics ultimately boil down to "react" in some form.  For example, looking at Charion the Untamed you have melee swings (Reaction: eventually drink healing potion -- pretty minor in general), Flame Barrage (Reaction: spam healing potion to survive), and Cone of Fire (Reaction: move out or die).

If you make him do Fire Damage and give Fire Immunity, then you eliminate two of the reactions and all you do is sit there meleeing him and occasionally drinking the healing potion (and melee damage in general is not very high -- because I can't assume people will have tank type characters).

MrZork wrote...

However, it's going to be difficult to avoid having players engage in repetitious behavior when fighting 10,000 HP bosses, whether the boss melees or has a spell-like ability that he uses repeatedly.

Well, one, you always have repetitous behavior if you define "meleeing the boss for a round" to be a behavior.  The question becomes "how much repetition is bad?"  Charion, for example, operates on a cycle of Flame Barrage -> Cone of Fire -> Exhausted -> repeat cycle.  If you make him killable by every character by the end of Exhausted, then high damage characters are going to kill him before you even see every mechanic.  Weapon Masters/Mages/proabbly more can kill him in about two cycles and characters with lower offense but better defense will take longer.

In other words, the cost of mechanics being less deadly is having to do them more.  In addition, repetition also shows you can do a mechanic consistently.  Imagine if Charion did one Cone of Fire at the start of the fight and then instantly died if you succeeded in dodging it.  Dodging one Cone of Fire does not demonstrate you can consistently execute the mechanic -- obviously Cone of Fire is a simple mechanic (first boss) but hopefully you get my drift.

At the same time, taking 20 minutes to kill Charion and going through 20 cycles because you have 30 AB or something is also not good -- but even a dex monk (low AB/damage) can kill him in like 6-7 minutes as I recall.  And that's with the worst offense I'm expecting.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Been playing druid & shifter shapes quite a bit in the past so don't know if any of this has been mentioned but if so, consider it just a confirmation of what everyone else already knows.

Dragon shape

Shifter is the wrong class for dragon focus. The breath weapon enhancement of shifter levels pales in comparison to the combat effectiveness of an integrated divine enhancment.

Use druid/cleric/ with a monk dump at 40 to get the AC boni along with the monk progression.  So that will be a WIS-heavy spread by necessity.  Naked, a fully buffed dragon AB reaches 69.  But that is somewhat deceiving because it must occur as a claw attack on the first attack.  Neither Haste nor Divine Power will impart the "full attack" AB that is associated with combat that uses standard weapons.  So, if the dragon bites on the first attack, only 64 AB is reached.  The randomness of creature weapon attacks makes it virtually impossible to predict the bounds of the bonus but the monk progression persists.  AC reaches 79 buffed naked. (No, I didn't forget to factor in size in these combat-debugged figures).

The only limiting factor of a divine-enhanced dragon shape is not AB, but rather DR penetration. At most a dragon can pierce +6 DR.  It's only on the claw attacks where this can be applied, so bites against say, a 30/+7 DR skin will do little except for the huge amount of damage intrinsic to a 60-ish STR attack.  So... for those environments with lots of high DR blueprints to contend with...

...shifter divine Risen Lord is the better answer.

Risen Lord/Epic Minotaur

Once again, cleric boosts will make the AB levels respectable around 60-ish, and the defensive buffs will more than compensate for the lost Monk AC.  Since the monk progression only works with unarmed shapes, there is no combat effectiveness penalty.  Assuming that the elevated DR environment provides weapon enhancements for non-shifter classes to deal with it, so will the Risen Lord.  The +5 scythe is over-ridden by whatever the MH weapon props are.  And it doesn't matter what weapon is equipped as long as the proficiences are there to equip them.  

The build itself should be a DEX build, to allow Dodge and any other DEX-focused feats deemed helpful.  Only enough WIS is required for Cleric 15 i.e. WIS 18 with all the rest going into DEX.  IIRC DEX reaches somewhere around 26-28, though it's been a while.

The main issue with RL is avoiding being turned by pallies, clerics or BGs with class levels  that are no lower than the RL level -5 (IIRC, been awhile since I calculated this).  In that case, the player needs to stay on the safe side (not knowing how strong the turning class might be) and shift into a secondary shape that also does not over-ride DEX.  That would be Epic Minotaur with 11 shifter levels, enough for a RL build.  Naturally, if the focus was in scythe, there will be a substantial AB drop-off in the re-shift, but the cleric buffs will remain in effect. 


The secondary problem si that RL cannot heal itself... not without some custom potions designed to inflict negative energy on the user, anyway.  That's where the shift to Epic Minotaur comes in again. That might be a nifty addition to the content, one I have not seen yet. 

The class is called "SHIFTER", right?  Not "PERMANENT RACE EXPLOITER". '>

edit: The wiz/druid/mnk dragon sounds decent in theory, but in practice, not all that effective.  First off you'll need to be splitting between INT & WIS enough that DCs will suffer and with only 24 wiz levels, spells easily resisted... at least that's been my experience on a few servers... boss SRs through the roof making spellcasting, in general, ineffective.  The damage shields work to a point but there are always those green/black dragons to contend with and other acid-resistance types.   The Epic warding works great for the duration which is relatively short, but a wiz will be using True Strike until expended just to hit anything in melee.  I'll pass on this build, myself.

As to the Greater Sanctuary, I was wondering if you could customize the spell similar to standard Sanctuary, with a Will save but in a way that the DC increases with casting level instead of (or along with) spell level.  That way, it would be somewhat problematic for non-casting classes to get an assured "autohide" but still have a chance with repeated casting by, say,some item or scroll.  The illustrious dice roll in action. Just an idea to pass along, MM.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 24 octobre 2013 - 11:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

The secondary problem si that RL cannot heal itself... not without some custom potions designed to inflict negative energy on the user, anyway.  That's where the shift to Epic Minotaur comes in again. That might be a nifty addition to the content, one I have not seen yet.

I modified the Healing Potion in Siege of the Heavens so that it will heal anyone who uses it, regardless if they're undead, for that exact reason.

HipMaestro wrote...

The class is called "SHIFTER", right?  Not "PERMANENT RACE EXPLOITER". '>

Sadly, most of shifting turns into "Pick one form of one feat and focus everything around it" to be effective.  One of the reasons I'm trying to do a rather universal buff is so that you can use any form you want (with the catch that, since I'm not redoing all of the forms, the forms will all be roughly equal with no real advantages).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
I think I understand the issues here, but that would be sort of a shame for some builds, and really unfortunate for pure or near-pure druids.

How so?

You're right. I wasn't taking into consideration the modifications you proposed to the other forms. With the extra AB and AC, those forms should do where before dragon shape was needed to be in the game, combat-wise.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

This toon is also doing reciprocal shield damage when he is hit and has the option to do some casting, as needed and EW if he is leaking HP too fast. Obviously, SotH has nerfed the damage done by shields to the point of uselessness against extreme HP bosses, but the build goal was that it could be an effective option.

I think you're vastly underestimating the power of the damage shields.  A level 24 wizard would reflect 14.5 average damage per hit -- if a boss is hitting you, say, four times a round (assume misses from Improved Invisibility) that's an extra 58 damage per round.  Four rounds of that is basically equivalent to a maximized IGMS -- so effectively dealing an extra maximized IGMS every four rounds with a level four spell (five if extended).

These guys are hitting an AC 70+ opponent an average of 4 times per round, even counting 25% misses from concealment? Eep! But, I agree that reciprocal damage could become a factor at that rate. I guess I didn't notice that my toon was getting hit that often.

MagicalMaster wrote...
[... clear explanation of STR buffs ...]

Heh. Ummm... Missed the other ring. <looks at ground sheepishly> In my defense, when I looked at the items, I was thinking in terms of what would be useful shifted. I forgot that another toon could make use of that STR ring on both hands  

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

And, the bonus damage from any SotH weapon should stack with the +5 scythe's piercing-slashing damage.

Not quite -- if you use a Scythe, for example, you have...

1d12 piercing
1d12 slashing
1d12 magic
1d12 divine

The +5 enhancement damage will NOT stack with the 1d12 slashing.  They're both considered the same type (Slashing) and only one actually applies.

Interesting. I didn't know the game counted piercing-slashing as slashing for purposes of damage-bonus stacking. Good to know.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
However, it's going to be difficult to avoid having players engage in repetitious behavior when fighting 10,000 HP bosses, whether the boss melees or has a spell-like ability that he uses repeatedly.

Well, one, you always have repetitous behavior if you define "meleeing the boss for a round" to be a behavior.  The question becomes "how much repetition is bad?"  Charion, for example, operates on a cycle of Flame Barrage -> Cone of Fire -> Exhausted -> repeat cycle.  If you make him killable by every character by the end of Exhausted, then high damage characters are going to kill him before you even see every mechanic.  Weapon Masters/Mages/proabbly more can kill him in about two cycles and characters with lower offense but better defense will take longer.

Really? Maybe I am forgetting something obvious, but I honestly wouldn't have thought a mage would have done so well. I normally enjoy playing wizards, but hearing of the uber HP bosses in SotH, I kinda assumed that my wizard would have run low on spells before really taking them down. Of course, I don't generally design mages whose existence is "spam the maximum number of IGMSes possible" (which isn't that interesting to me), but even a missile-spamming wizard with 5 IGMS slots each at levels 6-9 (assume he isn't a complete hack and has some slots reserved for defense) will average, let's see 10*140 (normal+stilled) + 5*205 (empowered) + 5*240 (maximized) = 3625 HP damage before switching tactics. (And, yes - before anyone mentions it - I agree that a pure mage can use those level 6 slots to do more damage with another spell, depending on the opponent.) Anyway, that sort of back-of-the-envelope had me thinkiing that even a damage spammer is going to have a tough time getting to 10,000 HP. How is he going to take down someone like Charion in two cycles? Does he rest during the boss' exhaustion phase? Maybe Charion's HP fall dramatically (or he takes dramatically more damage) during his exhaustion stage?

MagicalMaster wrote...
In other words, the cost of mechanics being less deadly is having to do them more.  In addition, repetition also shows you can do a mechanic consistently.  Imagine if Charion did one Cone of Fire at the start of the fight and then instantly died if you succeeded in dodging it.  Dodging one Cone of Fire does not demonstrate you can consistently execute the mechanic -- obviously Cone of Fire is a simple mechanic (first boss) but hopefully you get my drift.

At the same time, taking 20 minutes to kill Charion and going through 20 cycles because you have 30 AB or something is also not good -- but even a dex monk (low AB/damage) can kill him in like 6-7 minutes as I recall.  And that's with the worst offense I'm expecting.

So, does that mean that the worst AB is just 5 AB lower than a pure STR fighter?

BTW, I see what you are saying. What I meant was that a cycle of attack -> guzzle heals -> run for cover might seem repetitive if it goes on for more than a minute or two. Maybe that's all it would take. Like I said, my impression of how long it would take my toons to kill one of these bosses may have been leading me astray.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

These guys are hitting an AC 70+ opponent an average of 4 times per round, even counting 25% misses from concealment? Eep! But, I agree that reciprocal damage could become a factor at that rate. I guess I didn't notice that my toon was getting hit that often.

It definitely wasn't getting hit that often with 70+ AC and 25% concealment -- even the boss mobs only have 56 AB and the other mobs are lower.  So yeah, the damage shield is kind of worthless in that case.

But if you're a 40 AC Wizard, you're going to be hit on every attack that doesn't miss due to concealment.  I mean, you're basically saying damage shields are way, way more effective when you get hit far, far more often.  Who knew?  '>

MrZork wrote...

Interesting. I didn't know the game counted piercing-slashing as slashing for purposes of damage-bonus stacking. Good to know.

Yeah, any two-damage type weapon has a "default" damage type which is one of the two and that's the bonus damage you get from enhancement.  From some tests it appears to be the last alphabetically speaking -- so Bludgeoning/Piercing is Piersing, Bludgeoning/Slashing is Slashing, Piercing/Slashing is Slashing -- but I'm not 100% sure on that.

MrZork wrote...

but even a missile-spamming wizard with 5 IGMS slots each at levels 6-9 (assume he isn't a complete hack and has some slots reserved for defense)

Well, first, what spells are you using for defense for levels 6-9?  The module was designed assuming a mage would use nothing but Cat's Grace, Improved Invisibility, Elemental Shield, Mestil's Acid Sheath, (Maximized/Empowered/Silenced) IGMS, and Epic Warding.  You can even skip some of those spells and obviously there are others that would be useful (Maximized/Empowered Flame Arrow would do 240/210 damage per cast at level 40 -- mobs only have 21 reflex so having Epic Spell Focus in Conjuration would mean they would almost always fail, can use something like Maximized Acid Fog, etc) but I didn't assume mages would have to grab every last bit of character power.

I think you're also vastly underestimating the number of spells available to a wizard -- sorcerers only get one more per spell level (assuming they specialize) and my testing sorcerer has 12 level 9 spells and 13 level 8/7/6 spells.  So an equivalent wizard would have 11 9's and 12 8's/7's/6's -- and this isn't even getting into how Maximized Flame Arrow is better than a standard IGMS.  Keep in mind the wizard/sorcerer robes give an extra spell slot for 6/7/8/9 and the staffs give two extra spell slots for 6/7/8/9.

MrZork wrote...

How is he going to take down someone like Charion in two cycles? Does he rest during the boss' exhaustion phase? Maybe Charion's HP fall dramatically (or he takes dramatically more damage) during his exhaustion stage?

Well, first of all, kind of embarassing, but I did underestimate the time for a mage on Charion.  I was thinking how a mage was probably the best character, period, for Selenoth and Pirthen and figured they could do just as well on Charion.  However, it did take me nearly three cycles (died during third Exhaustion).  Uploading a video of it if you're curious.

And yes -- Charion loses 4 AC, takes 25% more physical damage, and takes 100% more non-physical damage while Exhausted -- so Maximized IGMSes are hitting for 480 damage.

MrZork wrote...

So, does that mean that the worst AB is just 5 AB lower than a pure STR fighter?

No -- a monk will only get 25 BAB and at most 16 of their primary stat, which means they'll be at least 7 AB down from a pure STR fighter.  This coupled with less damage per hit is why they take three times as long as a WM and twice as long as a fighter -- but they're also able to shrug off insane amounts of damage.

MrZork wrote...

BTW, I see what you are saying. What I meant was that a cycle of attack -> guzzle heals -> run for cover might seem repetitive if it goes on for more than a minute or two. Maybe that's all it would take. Like I said, my impression of how long it would take my toons to kill one of these bosses may have been leading me astray.

Really just depends on your character.  I'd probably suggest you go a 2H WM with high strength -- I believe it's the strongest character in general at the moment due to its insane offense and reasonable defenses.  If you find the fights too long with that then you'll certainly find them too long with everything else.

FYI I would certainly say that the gap in offensive power and defensive power for different characters is far too big by default but without a lot of changes there's not much I can do about that.  A WM is doing about 75% more damage than a fighter, for example, assuming both are using 2H or both are using 1H + Shield.  That's one of the reasons I gave access to significant healing and avoided testing output or defenses too much -- I figured the benefit of being more defensive was being able to survive things more easily at the cost of taking longer.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 octobre 2013 - 06:30 .