Siege of the Heavens Feedback, Difficulty, Mid-Fight Saving, and More

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Back at the start of March I released a module for the Adventure Building Challenge called Siege of the Heavens.  It was meant to be unusual - a level 40 only module focused mainly on tactical and difficult combat.  I've received positive reviews from rogueknight333, CaveGnome, Terroble, and a real life friend of mine - but that's been it.  Haven't received feedback from anyone else, good or bad.  I've been having a discussion with CaveGnome in PMs regarding the module and he brought up two points that I wanted to raise for broader discussion.

First, many/most players will give up after failing several times (which would be common in Siege) rather than continue to try - which is something that's certainly true, for better or for worse.  Siege has 300+ downloads but only a few votes - I don't know if other people are downloading it and not playing it, playing it and getting stuck, or finishing it and not bothering to give feedback.  And I'm worried that a lot of people might be in the second category (getting stuck).

Second, I inadvertently apparently made it impossible to save mid-boss fight.  The boss checks for valid players within a certain distance or it despawns.  If you load a saved game this check occurs before the player character loads into the game, despawning and respawning the boss.  As I mentioned, this was not intended, but it might wind up being a feature than a bug.   We're probably talking maybe 5ish minute long fights here as a frame of reference, maybe longer for characters with less offense.  Here's a video showing one of the fights (spoilers, obviously).

CaveGnome's idea was that I could alter the script to allow for saving mid-fight - meaning you could save when the boss was at 25% hit points or something and load that game if you die below that point.  My concern is that I'm not sure I want to promote save scumming in that manner - none of the fights *should* require it.  I floated the idea of an easy mode for players struggling (something like enemies take 50% more damage and deal 40% less damage) but mentioned my concern that if you remove the difficulty from Siege, I'm not sure what you even have left in the module - there's not much plot and no big choices or anything.

So...

Is saving mid-fight and reloading back to that point a "tactic" that should be encouraged or even allowed?

Is adding an easy mode to Siege of the Heavens a sensible idea?

And obviously it would be possible to do both - add an easy mode and allowing saving mid fight - but I'm not sure either is a good idea.

What do you all think?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <fading...>

Disclosure: I've DLed Siege but not yet played it. I will get to it.

The main "sell points" for Siege seem to be the power-play ( being able to play with maxed out characters where you can try novel builds with your throttle against the firewall) and tactical development excercises (where players can develop effective tactics against varied opponents).
At least, those are what attract *me* to the mod.

With that in mind, mid-fight saving and a variable difficulty both make sense. In effect, you are promoting a combat-sandbox where different builds and tactics are encouraged, and if one combo doesn't work, replay from the last save to tweak things.

In the context of a more story-heavy or dramatic mod, *not* allowing saves during tense segments makes sense. But exploratory or sandbox play, save early, save often, right?

I have long been a proponent of managing difficulty transparently; adjusting it internally in response to PC development. The harder it is for a PC to advance, the easier the settings. When advancement picks up, step on the gas. But again, for a tactical or arena type game, you want to test/develop builds and tactics against stable and difficult settings. The default *should* be difficult, but winnable (which all the reviews of Siege say you've achieved), but some people aren't focused on tactical development and/or have rarely played a max build. Giving them an "easy" intro would not, I think, detract from the mod.

Incidentally, I'm in that last category. Amethyst will be soft capped at level 20, and I have only rarely played above level 30, so Siege will be quite exciting for me :-) But I've got three mods ahead of it I've promised to find time for :-/ *sigh* Such an embarrassment of riches :-)

<...into view>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               To clarify something....

Right now there are only two reasons you need to save:

1, if you're afraid your game might crash and lose your progress
2, if you need to take a break and resume later.

Otherwise, if you die you can simply respawn and run back - there's no penalty except the boss encounter resetting and the time it takes to get back.

The boss fights are designed to be done in one go, almost like a multiplayer encounter  (except you can obviously pause here).  If you die, you start back from the beginning of the fight.  Therefore, does

Rolo Kipp wrote...

if one combo doesn't work, replay from the last save to tweak things.

mean "restart the fight and try something else" or "save every 15 seconds during the fight and reload back to that point - so if you keep dying at 8%, reload back to your 10% save until you succeed?"

Rolo Kipp wrote...

The default *should* be difficult, but winnable (which all the reviews of Siege say you've achieved), but some people aren't focused on tactical development and/or have rarely played a max build. Giving them an "easy" intro would not, I think, detract from the mod.

Yeah, those are the people who it would be for.  The module should currently be beatable by any reasonable character (no intelligence based fighters, please) - it is definitely not tuned so that you need a powerbuild to beat it.  But even then it's far more difficult than most things in NWN and some players might not be able to handle it.

Mainly just worried that someone will do it on easy and say "Well, I beat Siege of the Heavens and it was easy - what a stupid module!"  I've seen this behavior in WoW where players who SHOULD be doing harder difficulties beat the easiest (which is meant for worse players) and then proclaim they're bored and have nothing to do (since they don't want to bother actually trying and playing at their intended difficulty).

Sort of thinking I might do that 50% more damage taken and 40% less damage done for enemies for easy mode and then maybe not even have the final boss on easy mode - which would still leave nine bosses.  Trying to think through this.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <grabbing for...>

MagicalMaster wrote...
The boss fights are designed to be done in one go, almost like a multiplayer encounter  (except you can obviously pause here).  If you die, you start back from the beginning of the fight.  Therefore, does

Rolo Kipp wrote...
if one combo doesn't work, replay from the last save to tweak things.

mean "restart the fight and try something else" or "save every 15 seconds during the fight and reload back to that point - so if you keep dying at 8%, reload back to your 10% save until you succeed?"

Groundhog-day respawn is much quicker than loading a saved game, and so would be much more convenient :-) Hadn't considered respawn as I am so against it in Amethyst :-P But that should work well for this, I think.

Sort of thinking I might do that 50% more damage taken and 40% less damage done for enemies for easy mode and then maybe not even have the final boss on easy mode - which would still leave nine bosses.  Trying to think through this.

There's an idea :-)
Fewer "merit badges" (bosses to beat) for easy.
The only way to unlock prestige combat is to up the difficulty.
And seriously consider an "Uber" setting that *is* only winnable for the super-tweaked, super-trained players. Something I wouldn't have a *chance* to beat, but would not only appeal to powerbuilds but give them the sense they really did something exceptional if they beat it.

<...the brass ring>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...

Groundhog-day respawn is much quicker than loading a saved game, and so would be much more convenient :-)

Well...technically not quicker - you could probably load a game saved right before the boss in like 10 seconds and it might take 30-60 seconds to run back.

Mainly a question of whether people should save constantly during fights and then reload to the middle of the fight versus always starting over if they die.

Rolo Kipp wrote...

And seriously consider an "Uber" setting that *is* only winnable for the super-tweaked, super-trained players. Something I wouldn't have a *chance* to beat, but would not only appeal to powerbuilds but give them the sense they really did something exceptional if they beat it.

I've considered it - it's just extremely difficult to do with the default NWN rules since they're so unbalanced and I'm trying to avoid changing the rules very much on this particular module.  It would definitely eliminate most builds from being able to complete it if I were to do it.  Also brings up the question if it's worth the development time for this particular module (meaning would enough people even want to do it above and beyond normal?).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <letting george...>

MagicalMaster wrote...
Mainly a question of whether people should save constantly during fights and then reload to the middle of the fight versus always starting over if they die.

I'm always in favor of the Otto Magic approach. Much better to re-play the fight from the begining without having to manage game-saves *during* the fight. Especially for those of us who may be a bit overwhelmed :-)
Let George do it :-)

 It would definitely eliminate most builds from being able to complete it if I were to do it.

...on that setting...

Also brings up the question if it's worth the development time for this particular module (meaning would enough people even want to do it above and beyond normal?).

That I can't answer, as *I* would not be interested, except academically.

I am quite interested in playing it through on both easy and normal settings, though I'll play at normal only if I must.
I have never actually changed any module away from default settings. I always play on normal difficulty. But I suspect siege will punish me severely for it :-) I am a roguish wizard and I am very curious, but not combat focused.

But I suspect there is not enough interest in a truly epic cage-match to warrant the development of an Uber setting (though I hope certain old friends here will jump in and disabuse me of that opinion :-)

<...do it>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...

I'm always in favor of the Otto Magic approach. Much better to re-play the fight from the begining without having to manage game-saves *during* the fight.

That's a decent point - I definitely don't want to make people think they're expected to manage saves during a fight.

Rolo Kipp wrote...

I always play on normal difficulty. But I suspect siege will punish me severely for it :-) I am a roguish wizard and I am very curious, but not combat focused.

If you have at 20+ wizard levels, 20+ intelligence score, and prepare Elemental Shields, Acid Sheaths, and IGMSes, you should be able to do it.

Rolo Kipp wrote...

But I suspect there is not enough interest in a truly epic cage-match to warrant the development of an Uber setting (though I hope certain old friends here will jump in and disabuse me of that opinion :-)

That would be my guess too.  Normal is probably difficult enough for almost everyone.  Would rather put the time spent doing that into building a PW.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               How about an auto-save right before the beginning of each boss fight?
I downloaded this and I am planning to play it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Well, the module is designed so that you never need to reload if you die - I figured it was less immersion breaking (and more like an online world).  Do you prefer reloading a game to respawning?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               Having been taught that there are penalties for respawning, I never do. I reload. However, you said that there is no penalty for respawning in this module. Having an auto-save before the boss fight and not allowing a save during the fight would be a compromise, allowing the player to play it either way.
Another idea would be to have a teleport leading close to the fight that becomes available once the fight begins.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Correct, no respawn penalty (unless you count having to start the fight over as a penalty).  There is also an item that lets you teleport back to the last zone you died in (not right next to the boss, but eliminates all but the last zone of the journey back).

I suppose I could throw in an auto save at the entrance to each main area, at a minimum.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               When playing Siege, I had just assumed that disabling saving in mid-fight was done intentionally to prevent people taking exploitative advantage of such a tactic. That apparently not being the case, it might not be a bad idea to make it possible, since some of the fights have multiple stages to them, and I can imagine that someone who had got the first stage of one of them down pat, but was still dying in the later stages might get annoyed about always having to do the whole fight over from the beginning. Alternatively allowing mid-fight saving in an "easy mode" only would be one way to help differentiate it from the standard difficulty. A (possibly impractical) thought is that one might also help differentiate the two modes (if implemented) by handing out special items or other trophies to those who can manage the standard difficulty.

Given the way Siege is designed, an autosave feature seems pretty pointless. Anyone who is that bothered by the few extra seconds it takes to travel back from a respawn can just save for himself.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par rogueknight333, 01 août 2013 - 01:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I didn't even consider the possibility - I'm so used to multiplayer games where you cannot possibly save like that, games that don't allow saving in combat (like Mass Effect), and games that don't allow saving at all during action sequences (like Mechwarrior).

I'm wondering about that "whole fight over from the beginning."  I mean, we're talking about fights that are often five minutes or less - it's not like these are thirty minute long fights.  I'm aware my perspective is likely skewed as a heroic raider in WoW, but offhand it seems to me like boss fights are often package deals.  Either you can do the whole thing or you can't.  I try to avoid "gotcha" mechanics that just kill you with no warning and make you start over - but I do realize the frustration that can occur from dying several times when the boss is at 5% hit points or something.

On the flip side, is constantly saving mid-fight so you keep reloading back 5 seconds or whatever a better alternative?

I'm not even sure offhand about a good way to "fix" the boss and make sure they don't despawn without messing up the combat scripts (especially since different people have different load times).  I'd effectively have to "freeze" the fight as soon as it detects no players in the module - imagine if someone saved in the middle of the vrock fight during a ritual.  Suddenly now I have to stop the vrocks from empowering the boss and stop the damage pulse while the player is loading, track how long the load time is, and then resume the scripts once the player is there.  It'd be kind of a mess - if NWN just loaded everything instantly it wouldn't be a problem.

What kind of special items or trophies were you envisioning, if anything?  I was planning on applying a blanket nerf for easy mode, not creating a new set of mobs or something.  Giving better gear wouldn't mean much at all, especially since I have to tune around the gear.  Locking the final boss for normal only seems to be the best idea I have so far - it's still a reasonable conclusion for people on easy mode and it also means I can be less worried about making the final boss too crazy.  It's already planned to be a 12+ minute long fight with four phases in four separate areas.

The autosave at the beginning of each area would mainly be to make sure you don't lose all your progress if your game crashes - and yes, if you really want to just reload at the boss you can do that with a manual save.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_CaveGnome]

               MagicalMaster wrote...

Is saving mid-fight and reloading back to that point a "tactic" that should be encouraged or even allowed? Is adding an easy mode to Siege of the Heavens a sensible idea?

....

I think mid-fight save could help but only with the 2 fights i found long and perillous: Selenoth and the last fight in v.1.05  (disclaimer: no Wow raider or Mass Effect player here, but done Mechwarrior 1,2 & Merc a long time ago in another galaxy). With an auto-save mode, the problem will be when to save in the fight to let the player have all its chances after he/she reloads. If possible, my choice would be saving at "players will" (not sure i really like auto-save). I don't see an easy mode need, but i concur with  Rogueknight333, if an easy mode was available, some form of reward or distinction would be needed to differenciate standard and easy mode. Perhaps this could be purely honorific without any special power involved (celestial medals, Celestial PC statue in the cathedral, celestial knightood...).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

...but I do realize the frustration that can occur from dying several times when the boss is at 5% hit points or something.

The point is that in Siege this is probably going to be a more common scenario than in many modules (even knowing the right strategy to pursue getting careless can still lead to a quick death sometimes), so it would not surprise me if there were a certain percentage of players who got really upset at having to start certain fights over all the way from the beginning for the Xth time after almost winning.

MagicalMaster wrote...
I'm not even sure offhand about a good way to "fix" the boss and make sure they don't despawn without messing up the combat scripts (especially since different people have different load times)..

On the other hand if it is too impractical to implement I do not see that it is that big a deal (the module is not supposed to be a piece of cake). Since you specifically asked the question of whether there was a reason to make mid-fight saving possible, I assumed you regarded it as feasible. But, yes,there are reasons saving in combat is not even possible in a lot of games.

MagicalMaster wrote...
What kind of special items or trophies were you envisioning, if anything? ... Giving better gear wouldn't mean much at all, especially since I have to tune around the gear...

I did not really give much thought to specifics since I was basically just tossing a random idea out there. As Cave Gnome says, however, you would not have to hand out anything that is even useful. It could just be a pure trophy. Alternatively you could hand out more powerful gear even if you tune the mobs to compensate so that it makes no real difference to anything, since I expect a lot of people will still feel happy about their nominally superior bonuses.