Author Topic: recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?  (Read 842 times)

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« on: December 16, 2011, 05:10:15 am »


               I am looking for a campaign where the PC doesn't have access to the uber magic items of HotU, etc. Obviously, what constitutes low-magic is debatable, but I am hoping for something where, for instance, a +3 weapon is a pretty decent find at epic levels, loot is more rare, magical loot is mostly of the expendable variety, like potions and perhaps the occasional wand.

Anyway, I love several of the high-level mods I've played. But, I would like to try playing in one where the availability of items isn't such a factor.

BTW, I would liek to be able to play through epic levels, but it would obviously be a bonus if the module were epic in scope and started at lower levels.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 11:11:06 pm »


               Wow! I didn't think this would be such a stumper. No one knows of any modules involving epic play without high magic items?

BTW, I spent some time searching before I posted the above query and ran across a couple low-magic modules. Some, like Saleron's Gambit are highly recommended, but it doesn't come close to epic levels.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jackkel dragon

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 01:49:04 am »


               I think the problem with looking for epic-level module is that there is the expectation of uber-powerful magic items in such a module. Plus, those who make low-magic modules also seem to be the ones would avoid epic-level modules (probably because of the huge amount of power epic level characters have, with or without magic items.)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mirgalen

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 02:40:43 am »


               You may want to try "Hunt for a Necromancer" it is quite "low magic" compared to the bulk of epic mods out there.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 06:00:56 am »


               Mirgalen, I will check it out. Thanks for the recommendation.

jackkel dragon, both good points. I was hoping someone might have taken on the challenge anyway. It seems like there are a some PWs that are pretty tight with magic, so there is a desire to play in such environments. I was hoping there might be a module built with the same design ideals.

And, I also think it may be easier to balance a low-magic (rather than high-magic) epic-level module because the module-maker can leverage the balancing that Bioware has already done with the classes. I mean, since most of the power an epic character would have in such a module would come directly from his class abilities, in a low-magic mod, whatever effort Bioware put into balancing the classes won't get thrown off as easily by an uber item that gives some great feature to a class that isn't supposed to have it. For example, a fighter character gives up something in exclusive fighting ability (feats, HP, etc.) if he takes ten levels of Pale Master (and 3+ levels of whatever arcane class) in order to get immunity from critical hits. (That's not to say it isn't worth it, depending on the character the player has in mind, but it is a tradeoff that helps balance somewhat.) But, if there are half a dozen rings, cloaks, etc. that offer crit. immunity, then there is far less reason to take those PM levels and it's harder to keep balance.

Anyway, I suspect there is a general concept that everything should scale up in epic levels. But, I thought it might be fun to play in an environment where the characters and opponents were epic, but the trinkets weren't.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 07:27:14 am »


               What you're looking for seems to be a module where the power would only lie within the character itself, not his "temporary, perishable" gear. That's interesting, also close to the way I usually play almost everything, being a huge "barehands spellcasters" type player, using almost excusively minimalist ascetics heroes, arcane or divine masters who live and fight with their inner power only. Highly trained beings all about a very dedicated practice of their skills, feats, levels, and spells...
But still, that makes it high magic in the end. Fireworks type of playing.  
I won't be able to help much here I'm afraid, also because of my feeble memory which remembers only the modules that not even its weakness can forget.
The ones you already know as good as I do I suppose.
Probably one of the reasons why I became a lists maker: I need them.

I would trade any überweapon for 100 xps. 
Is that the concept you're talking about? 
And what class are you thinking of... Would you extend your minimalist principle to a fighter even, but fighting with what, cigarettes? 
No!!! I can't believe I just said that! 
And for PWs only, no Single players? 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 20 décembre 2011 - 07:48 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 01:53:41 am »


               

jmlzemaggo wrote...
What you're looking for seems to be a module where the power would only lie within the character itself, not his "temporary, perishable" gear.

That's idea, although I am not really a purist about it. I (and probably many of us) get a fair amount of NWN enjoyment out of thinking about character builds. But, it really changes things when equivalent feats, skills, abilities, etc. that we design into a build are available at a merchant or even in fairly reliable loot drops. To further the example above, if the quest to kill the mummy king always rewards with a necklace that has +6 AC and immunity to crits and paralysis, then one might have to seriously rethink taking those ten levels of pale master. (Obviously, that's not the whole benefit of those PM levels, but I think the issue is clear.)

I'll admit that one of the first things I do when exploring a new module is to see what the stores have in order to get some idea of how the module designer anticipates the character will eventually be equipped. Now, of course, it may be that even in cases where there is uber gear around, the module doesn't give out enough money to buy all of it, which can be interesting when a PC has to save his coppers in order that some day he can afford a 20,000 GP pair of boots of speed or instead he might buy three lesser weapons or armor instead. It can be fun to make those decisions. And, it's also possible that the only good gear drops from bosses or quest completion. Either case would be a contrast to the Bioware campaigns where (with the possible exception of SoU) by the end, a PC can pretty easily buy or find so much gear that he seldom has to worry about saving up to get something nice.

But, in this case, the idea struck that it might be fun to play the characters more-or-less as they leave the CBC design. For one thing, it would just be fun to see how they do "naked". And, it also might provide some insight into potential strengths or weaknesses of the builds. I.e., I might learn something if it turns out that some tank build I have been playing and thinking is pretty tough is actually very dependent on getting some plush AC gear (for instance) and I never knew it before because such gear was easy to get.

I would trade any überweapon for 100 xps.
Is that the concept you're talking about?
And what class are you thinking of... Would you extend your minimalist principle to a fighter even, but fighting with what, cigarettes?
No!!! I can't believe I just said that!
And for PWs only, no Single players?

I guess the gear versus XP choice might depend on the situation. Usually, my priority is seeing how the character can advance in innate ability. But, it can be a tough call because gear also lets a character perform better.

It would actually be sort of an interesting idea to pit XP advancement against gear and see what people choose. What if each opponent killed had the XP award multiplied by some factor that went down as the PC's equipped inventory value increased? Leaving aside the implementation details (there is a potential lag issue lurking in running an inventory loop for each OnDeath event), what if the module assumes that the PC will typically have 50,00GP of gear equipped and will have at most 100,000 GP worth of equipped gear in a given chapter of the module series and PCs should get reduced credit for kills if they have that much gear equipped. So, he writes the XP award so that the nominal XP is multiplied by (150,000-GearValue)/100,000. That way, a "naked" character gets a 50% bonus for the kill and an "overdressed" character get's a 50% penalty.

I will admit that I seldom play pure melee builds. And, what little experience I have reminds me that such PCs, who often don't have much in the way of exotic powers as part of the class, can be much more fun when the gear provides variety. I don't know if a low-magic module would be as fun without some exotic character abilities to spice things up.

As to the last question, I wasn't thinking of PWs, though I know some are said to be low- or mid-magic. In this case, I was thinking of a low-magic SP module, though a low-magic MP module where SP is an option would be fun, too, as I can get a playing partner for MP games. Maybe I should post in the PW forum as well, to see what people recommend for low-magic PWs...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_werelynx

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 03:53:23 pm »


               The Hunt
- you start with a given multiclass character(40lvl), epic but not able to gain any more levels.
- gear is appropriate for maybe 15th level char, it is given in the way of console games.
- despite new tilesets, models etc. the game is a little boring, bugged and overall unpolished.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_werelynx

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 05:13:50 pm »


               Wake
- horror story for 39-lvl
- no powerful items except those that you bring
- suggested to play "Stormy Night" and  "Narcopolis" (let's say start at 14/15th and get to 17th maybe, so basically between them and wake is enormous gap. Whatever.
- some extra difficulty, regardles of build or class

Will try to find some other epic level modules with low magic, but they are rare.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 04:07:03 am »


               Mirgalin: I've started playing Hunt for a Necromancer. It is a good H&S module, so far. It's not as high magic as some other epic modules, but it the items are pretty close to HotU (+7/8 weapons, +6/8/10 ability increase items, etc.). But, the encounters are pretty tough and my Wiz/PM is having fun with it.

werelynx: Thanks for those suggestions. I will give the series a shot (though starting Wake may require a trip through a training module to level up). Sounds like the first module of the three is about the right level for a character who has just finished SoU...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_NWN DM

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 07:15:10 am »


               Hmm... I'd think that "low magic" and "epic level" are diametrically opposed states of being personally.

But then high level to me starts at around 7th, so I'm probably not the best person to provide options.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 09:00:39 am »


               

NWN DM wrote...

Hmm... I'd think that "low magic" and "epic level" are diametrically opposed states of being personally.


It's certainly seems to be an uncommon combination, I suspect mostly because the temptation is to increase the rewards (including gear) in proportion to the character level. And, indirectly, the fact that there isn't the widest selection of epic-challenging opponents in the Toolset encourages module designers to is to equip them with items that toughen them up. It's quicker than creating a whole new load of epic skins and creature weapons for the new creatures. And, it ends up sounding right that the boss who was wearing +10 gear will drop something more than a large shield with Taunt +3 when he goes down.

But, there's nothing necessarily contradictory about high-level characters paired with low-magic gear. It's just not what we're used to, starting from the example Bioware set with the OC and progressing to HotU. And, probably (though I only speak from my vague recollection) the PnP game tends to be the same way.

BTW, I don't want to give the impression I don't have fun playing uber gear epic campaigns. I just thought it would be fun to play at the other end of the gear spectrum.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 02:31:40 pm »


               I just finished "Hunt for a Necromancer" and want to thank Mirgalen for the recommendation. The magic level was pretty high, though (as has been noted) most of the loot and mob monster drops were lowish in the context of epic level mods.

The loot from a couple bosses was pretty substantial, in the +10 variety, but that sort of thing wasn't especially common. And, come to think of it, even a couple of +10 boss drops near the end isn't at the magic level of, say, Sands of Fate, which may be my benchmark for modules that reach level 40. Far more typically, +2 to +5 gear dropped from various mobs, which I dutifully collected and sold for a while. Then I gave up the janitorial work and left scads of it laying where it fell when I realized there would never be any place to spend over 60,000,000 gold. ':blink:'

Anyway, my point is: Not low magic, but a fun module with over a dozen quests and it served quite well as a H&S leveler.

If anyone has played an epic-level mod with low magic gear, I would love to hear about it. My next step will be to check out the PWs that are described as low-magic. If only hunt-and-peck keyboard skills weren't such an annoyance in no-pause-mode gaming... ':unsure:'
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 04:17:09 pm »


               

NWN DM wrote...

But then high level to me starts at around 7th, so I'm probably not the best person to provide options.

Well, after having played many community modules, I could just say about the same. Things start getting very different around that 7th level with most classes. And there is another reason to see it almost as high level: considering 85% of all modules play mostly around those 5-10th levels. 
Reaching that 7th level is already quite rare, almost some luck, AAMOF.
(AAMOF : short for as a matter of fact, only I was feeling very leazy today, and couldn't find the energy to write unnecessary stuff around the whole idea. Sorry. 'hope you'd understand.) 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 05 février 2012 - 04:24 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_werelynx

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recommendations for low-magic, epic-level campaign ?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 07:46:47 pm »


               Hmm.
Currently I'm playing The Blacksteel Chronicles. in the half of the 3rd part I'm already 18th level(TBC starts at 10lvl). The module is little heavy on the H&S side, but the plot is really nice. Aside of what you buy at the begining, before the journey, there are no high magic items. There is one shop that only have ammo and potions, and the rest you have got to scavenge yourself from the ruins(there isn't much though and every item besides the good enchantments also have some disadvantages(-2 to CON for example). You should also update the modules with the CEP 1 patch 1.69 so they could work with the game patched to 1.69. Otherwise it will crash(merchant, containers - basically everything with throwable grenades I think).