Author Topic: Wyvern Crown of Cormyr  (Read 5501 times)

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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Wyvern Crown of Cormyr
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2011, 08:54:37 am »


               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...
As to the different quests, you seriously can NOT accept them all, at least not in one play-through.  They were setup to be class/alignment specific, and once a choice was made in one way, you were pretty much locked out of the others.

Are you saying there are more quests you cannot see depending on your class/alignment? Good to know. I didn't. 
What I meant is just I was able to accept all quests, as long as they were offered to me.
Even if they looked fishy or even evil at first, but turned out to be doable without any alignment penalty in the end, surprisingly. 

I remember a complete walkthrough as well ***memories*** but couldn't find anything anymore either. 
So, this is already a great find, Tchos
I read a bit of it, enough to make me realised I might be mistaking saying there is a "special use" button on that sword... when I now remember ***Shame... ':unsure:'*** using that "Special Holly Water" sold by the Priest in fact... 

@ Bannor Bloodfist
All this heavy "Castle playtesting" made one the nicest castles in NWN history in the end. 
Great job here. Grateful. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 16 octobre 2011 - 08:13 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2011, 06:47:42 pm »


               I can no longer remember all the quests/sub-quests, but I believe there is at least one that is more or less class/alignment specific.  It truly is difficult to remember it all now, I did so, so, so many play tests.

I do remember requesting fairly early on (there was a team vote made on this as well) that all the quests be made available to every player regardless, but I seem to remember that there was one at least, that only showed up if you did something specific.

After the team voted, and by BenWH's main goal, as much as possible was done to allow everyone  to find/do everything, but each quest changed slightly as your end choices were made.  The idea was that your choices FORCE certain penalties or bonuses to your character.

I know I was forced to test as evil, as good, as neutral and make some other choices along the testing phase to ensure that as much as possible was tested.  I do know that if you play evil all the way, or play good all the way, the end was different.  Unfortunately, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, the "end" was designed to be a stepping stone to part 2 which was never created.   Whatever "end" you went with (by your own choices) was supposed to affect even more as the 2nd part was played through.  

The team did a roundtable type discussion on this, actually many times, and one of the most common thoughts was that most modules out there, don't really force you to pay penalties for negative play styles.  Or allow you to do anything at all regardless, and still "win" etc.  We even discussed having folks in a given location recognize your actions when you opened a box and stole something.  I do know, that there are spots where you can turn the entire town against yourself if you make certain "mistakes" in your actions.

I also remember that when we finally got to Bioware "Final testing" phase, that Stanley Woo gave me some useful tips on how to defeat just about any mod out there.  He knows all the tricks.  And I am not talking playing in DM mode but character tweaks to give you more speed, power etc, as well as play-style tips on how to more effectively test for unbalanced rewards and stuff.  At the time, I had believed that DLA (and me in particular) had already tested for pretty much everything, other than the horse hat bug which kept kicking our collective butts.  Stanley showed how, (by being too close to the story, knowing too much about it's development) things typically get missed.  Needless to say, we had to go back to drawing board so to speak, and repair some things that didn't stand up.


Annnyyyywwwaaayyy, would it be worth re-playing as true evil or true good, when you had already played it the other way around?  Would you see all that much that was different?

I think the answer is yes, WCoC as written by BenWH was truly written for re-playability, to allow you to "find" things you might have missed the first, 2nd or 15th time through.  

Are the differences all that great?  Depends, and you are not likely to end up with a much more powerful weapon at the end etc, as those specific side quests are available to everyone etc, BUT, you might see a difference in how some of the things play out.

I also know that all the side quests were written in such a fashion as to not necessarily be required (some folks don't like being led around by the nose) but can add more "flavor" to your experience in the mod.  The primary quests, well, you are basically forced, led around by your chin hairs, to go through as certain elements are required for the end game section, but many of the smaller side quests can easily be skipped.

I don't remember the details on this part, but I think that a FULL play-through requires around 48 hours of play time, while the accelerated play style can be accomplished in something around 24-28 hours (by skipping all side quests).  Clues were given throughout the mod on those primary quests, so that you could fairly easily figure out which ones you HAD to do to not get stuck with nothing else to do.  Ben did a great job with the dialogs throughout the module (I know, I had to manually spell check and plot check them all) .  

DLA worked as a pretty darned good team, some of those guys are really excellent creators in one fashion or another.  What is sad, is that 98% of them are completely gone from the community now.  Having WCoC initially cancelled after years of work drove a lot of them away. When it was resurrected it was done in a fashion that burned out a few of us, and some did not return for the final testing/release bits.  After release, DLA hung together for a while longer, but, well, life got in the way of things and the entire team was very disappointed by how the whole thing was handled.  Our collective hatred for all things Atari still boils in most of our blood.

There were other issues at that final release phase of things as well.  Most particularly that DLA thunder was literally stolen by the free release of Darkness Over Daggerford, especially considering how unfinished that module was at the time of release.  Folks STILL, to this day, think that the DOD team created the tilesets in that mod... they did create some additional tiles, groups, etc, for additions to Castle Rural, but only a few bits were actually their own content.  I have nothing against a team releasing works that they did, but what hurt DLA was the timing of said release.  It was done in a fashion to deliberately hurt both Bioware, and Atari's possible sales of WCoC etc... it also indirectly hurt DLA... It put another nail in the coffin lid.  Anyway, I have no problem with folks releasing THEIR work, but when they are also throwing away the collective work of someone else entirely that is NOT a good thing to do.  All they had to do was wait a bit, then give it to the community as a parting gift instead of deliberately releasing just weeks ahead of the KNOWN release date of WCoC, thus damaging someone else with it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tchos

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« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2011, 06:08:59 am »


               Bannor, I find that kind of background information very interesting and helpful in piecing together a picture of what was going on at that time.  Thank you.

Also, I just found some information in a post you made on the old Bioware forum (via the Wayback Machine) that pertained to my earlier Manthis quest trouble.

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...
You can find this out either via managing to force / persuade the information out of Alice Broadhand, or via clues from Kathryn Hawklin.

You have to be a bit of a rogue, or less than righteous and speak with Alice as she gives you a test to see how lawful you are (IE A true paladin will never get the option, OR if anyone in your party is a true paladin). If you are too lawful, she won't give the option.

(Emphasis mine)

I had Edgar in my party at the time, so that might be why I couldn't get that information.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Tchos, 17 octobre 2011 - 05:10 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2011, 07:49:01 am »


               Yep, that is one of them, there are others.  Your choices of companions, and ethics? make a big difference in the options on the sub-quests, and the primary quest(s) as well..

That was all part of the design to allow/encourage, replaying the module.  You can "learn" the ropes the first time through, but likely miss some things along the way.  Then you can go back and make better/worse choices as to your companions and your main character's lawfulness, righteousness etc..

I think that is only one where you are completely blocked from a side quest by playing a lawful character though... Although, I just can't remember all the dialog choices and what the prospective consequences were.   The way back machine did save two out of the three pages of clues/tips etc, but page one still had some stuff that would be useful.

Anyway, enjoy the mod.  Go back and play it again, and again... 'till you get bored with it anyway.  MOST of the "negative" consequences can be avoided.  Most of the time, there are alternate ways of accomplishing whatever tasks need to be accomplished.  

I can remember attempting to play as a Knight, attempting to gain Purple Dragon Knight status etc... and not being able to figure out how to get certain things that I KNEW were there...  At first, for probably a dozen or so playthroughs,  Ben didn't give us clues... he was trying to determine if enough information, tips, and clues were already in the mod for folks to be able to figure things out, and really needed the "unguided" play testing to see how good it would all hold together... I had "heard" about certain weapons, or side quests, from different discussions with the other play testers that were basically under my control, but had not found all of them yet at the time... Finally, after some changes were made to different dialogs/quests, Ben started feeding us with more data so we could perform tests faster.  By this time, I had already played the mod to the final stage at least 10 times or so... Anyway, at that point, I truly learned how well Ben had written the mod.  There were all sorts of things that I had missed, despite the multiple playthroughs.  Lots of extra details and well written side quests etc.

Fun.  I really wish we could all tickle Ben's ear with enough requests to release the 2nd part.  I know he had continued work on it, even after everything else was shut down, planning on releasing it later... I just sent him an email to the old address I have for him, but I don't know if he is around anymore.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2011, 09:03:46 am »


                For the records, I played a neutral good PC, and I remember reading something at the very end of WCC, saying I went through all the "options" (52 out of 52). I wish I didn't forget the real name Ben gave to this, not 'options', 'experiments'?, but I found it being a fine idea for those playing carefully around all events, quest and alignments the author threw at us.  Even without that, you can feel being followed all along the gameplay. Big Ben is watching you. And I assure you, Bannor Bloodfist, as a player, you can feel the depth of that game all the way. A sign of a great teamwork, next to a great leadership. Another reason to feel a bit deezy as soon as some feeble, unbalanced or "left unattended for some Real Life reasons" event or dialog, suddenly pops up, and shakes the whole WCC dream down. 
The price of perfection: time... which often means unfortunately money nowadays. 
Don't forget you guys did excellently in the end. And I appreciated your work, even more today that I learned the hard but best way my NWN over those last years of palying. 
& sorry for my frenchglish, (why do you think we drink wine?) but I had to try saying how I felt playing your masterpiece. 
It could have been perfect? Well, so could I... 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 17 octobre 2011 - 08:10 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_RebirthEternaL

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« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2011, 02:28:24 am »


               

jmlzemaggo wrote...

Tchos wrote...

While on the subject of Wyvern Crown of Cormyr, does anyone know if it's possible to find the information Manthis seeks for the Ride Like A Centaur quest? I've been to every location in town and talked to every named NPC, and found nothing.

Unfortunatelly yes.
There is that Lord's mansion near the shopping building where that girl Alice? gives you some quests.
That Lord is the one bad guy. You get the quest from her (Alice) actually, she wants you to find a unicorn that he (the Lord) lost, a quest which is gonna take you to that only priest in town... and so on. 
Let me know if you need more, I might have a (old) save game in this area... 
I love that module. 
Maybe it's just about time to replay it... 



Since you clearly have knowledge on Wyvern Crown of Crmyr can you or anyone really help me with something?  I'm stuck at a part in the vanishing castle. When you first get inside and have to find the 3 key ward things to get into the portal (its the first portal that you find in WCoC if that helps). I've found the first 2 key ward things but i cant find the 3rd. I have the one where you go on the roof and kill the giant wyrms. I have the 2nd where you go in that room past the purple misty door and fight all those snakes and have the gas continually messin with you. The 3rd that you need by solving the puzzle that involves those barriers is the one im having trouble with. Assuming (and praying lol) that you know what i'm talkin about, If you or anyone else knows how to solve that puzzle id really appreciate any help
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2011, 06:31:25 am »


               Check the wayback machine, you are actually talking about Castle Wyvern Water, and that particular puzzel you are dealing with has multiple pieces to it.  You need to get to the basement as stated in the puzzle solutions found here.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2011, 07:32:35 am »


               I could marry that wayback machine...
The first time I played WCC I got that bad idea to play with the walkthrough, since it was so gently provided at the time.
I didn't on my latest one. And it's doable.
I'm not the smartest guy when it comes to puzzles, so I just decided to take it as it comes, and explore everything, every level, take my time, no other choice really anyway, like you would do if it really happened to you, looking for something in a gigantic and unknown castle. Go everywhere, go around if you can't go straight, or miss some equipment, pick-up anything that "talks" to you or seems to be special or important... once you read them.
It's only a matter of time.
& let us know.
But what I'm trully saying here is something else to keep in mind, I suppose: 99% of the modules are doable without a walkthrough.
You could feel suspicious about amateurs or pro building games for free. Don't.
They all made such an excellent work on their own modules...
It's almost unbelievable. There is still hope for us.
That goes for WCC too.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_RebirthEternaL

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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 10:21:31 pm »


               Bannor Bloodfist Thanks ALOT. I figured i had to get to that underwater part to get or press somethin that would help get rid of those laser barrier things but i had no idea nor would i have even begun to look at those helmets that u get. u jus made 8 + hourss of walkin around confused as heck not in vain lol so i appreciate it.  

jmlzemaggo thanks to u too. i like playin games with/without walkthroughs.  I like figurin out the stuff for myself and im a curious kat so ill explore every cranny im allowed to haha but if i come across somethin that i've spent 8 hours tryna figure out what the heck i gotta do then at that point ima look at a walkthrough or go ask for help lol. this is the first time i've asked for help on a forum though so im still gettin used to figurin out how they work but thanks both of yall.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 11:20:29 pm »


               I hear ya man.  I prefer to play first time without a walk through, to see if I can figure it out, and to see how good a story might be, and if the clues given are enough for my aging mind to figure out.  After that first play through I tend to start searching for a walk-through to save time, find things I missed etc.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_RebirthEternaL

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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2011, 04:32:37 am »


               do you or anyone know if Jonas can be freed from his paralysis?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tchos

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« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2011, 04:42:27 am »


               I just played as normal, and I didn't have to do anything special to free Jonas other than what I had to do to get the crown.  (Assuming you're at that part)
               
               

               
            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2011, 07:44:52 am »


               

RebirthEternaL wrote...
do you or anyone know if Jonas can be freed from his paralysis?

As Tchos said, just do what you came to do. 
Nice map by the way... 
'loved those pillars. 
How come the NWN lighting is always so boring... 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_BenWH

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« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2011, 01:36:31 pm »


               I didn't know about the wayback machine - that's quite a find. I spent a bit of time copying all the old walkthrough stuff I put up there onto my PC so I have it again! Shame that page 1 of the quests is missing though - especially as that one had the 'Ride like a Centaur' quest that infuriated everyone so much '<img'>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par BenWH, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:36 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2011, 10:47:14 am »


               Regarding the special weapon craftable at the smith's as part of the Weapon of a True Knight quest:

jmlzemaggo wrote...

(Be warned if you're using Tony K's AI, the crafting cutscene might freeze the game.
Just move your override folder aside for a while if this ever happen)


Wow, thanks! That saved me a world of frowning. It looks like one of Tony K's AI files doesn't play nice with that cut-scene. (I am pretty sure it is
nw_c2_default3.ncs
.)

BTW, if he chooses to help out the smith, the PC's weapon crafting skills can have a pretty big impact on the weapon created, making it worth buying the Iron Talisman some merchants may be selling. It changes the DC of the secondary effect (e.g. on-hit fear, confusion, etc.) and the number of times per day the activate power (dragon breath, cast sleep, etc.) can be cast. This is separate from the enhancement bonus that depends on the number of fragments used.