The Prophet Series - spoiler discussion thread

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

Citillara wrote...
My character and I chose to deny fate.
Through the entire series, she always tried to prevent the events she saw in her dreams. Furthermore, she cannot stand the absence of free will, though in the following example it kinda more looks like blackmailing. When Atelkhan asks her to bare the collar, she refuses it to a point she has to fight them all. Another point is because all sufferings would have been meaningless if she accept fate and let everything happen normally. Of course, even with Free Will there is still people who will suffer, however the Creation would become only richer if it was multiplied in a countless number of worlds than just one written in advance.
There is also the meeting with the Creator; this was for her the most decisive thing. As He was ignoring her, she could not help think, “If He doesn’t intervene that means it’s allowed. We are allowed to reshape our creation”

I think I am starting to understand why so many people are choosing free will: Because when you play this module, you actually are making free choices, not knowing what their consequences will be but knowing your reasons for making them. And in the end you want those reasons to mean something. Perhaps the linearity of the story is one of the things you are ultimately rebelling against. I think it must be very hard, after being constrained for so long (3 modules over >6 years!), to choose to give in to those constraints. As the builder, I saw this series very differently, more like a whole where the end must fit the beginning. So for me the choice of obeying fate just seems more acceptable, like the completion of symmetry. I really expected we'd be closer to 50/50 - shows what I know! :happy:

Citillara wrote...
Therefore, it should stand something like this: the Creator makes the beginning of a world (even if it holds millennia’s of history it still remains small) in which a set of events will create Free Will. Statues representing worlds that failed (or where He did not wanted Free Will) to achieve Free Will and are governed by Fate. Broken ones, those where the Prophet failed during the 3rd chapter (died after activating the Century of Sorrows)

Interesting idea. Not what I was thinking, but it fits nicely.

Citillara wrote...
Did you ever play HeX Coda? Great module with the time loop in the first chapter. Unfortunately, he never made the second one but I found somewhere the script for it and it was good too.

Yes, and I loved it. I didn't try the unfinished part 2. But I loved all of Stefan Gagne's stuff. EE2 is my favorite.

BTW - If you really, and I mean really want to see a twisted plot structure, check out the movie "Primer". See it twice, then scratch your head a bit, then read some of the discussions on primermovie.com/, and then see it again. It makes all other time loop stories seem simple by comparison.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

DekuBush wrote...
Talindra (my Prophet, imported through Cave of Songs & Honour Among Thieves) chose to defy Fate. She had her own motivations, but chief among them was that she couldn't bring herself to betray herself and all her friends, as she saw it. She'd suffered too much and seen too much death and betrayal to inflict that on her younger self. Besides that, after the sheer agonising futility of her long battle with Fate, she wasn't going to capitulate at the last. (There weren't enough dialogue options in the dream of Norenshire for her to really tell Fate what she thought of her. But then I'm not sure there could ever be enough invective for that particular confrontation.)

Hmmm... I should add more options there!

DekuBush wrote...
But it got me thinking; if my Talindra didn't change her own past, then whose future did she change? If that was another Talindra, from another world, then imagine the magnitude of the betrayal a lie would represent: Not only would she be condemning her own world to an eternity of slavery under Fate, but she'd be condemning another world to the Century of Sorrow, and another Talindra to the same dreadful choice. Uncounted worlds of unborn may rest in her hands. Fate's universe would spin on a cycle of betrayal, each world in turn condemning the next to torment and itself to bondage, until someone defies Her and breaks the chain.

Interesting perspective... What I was thinking is that if the prophet tells the lie, then it is because there is only one world. So that is not another Talindra you see but the same one you were when you looked into the future. And your choice was never a choice at all.

Thanks for unlurking! (is that a word?)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Baldecaran, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

furballs wrote...

I thought the ending was amazing, both of them.  I decided to play both endings by playing one ending then go back to a save  just before the ending. I can see you really worked on making  on an amazing mod. I really was abosrb in it. Thank-you for making it.

I'm glad you liked it! But which ending did you choose first? There can only be one first choice, and that makes all the difference...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

Rafe34 wrote...

I do have a question, something I missed. The child I was supposed to kill. Either something glitched in my game, or I never actually killed her. Or perhaps that was all a metaphor for something that just went completely over my head. I've thought about it as being child = Fate's plan to restore the balance, but that wasn't really made clear to me.

It depends on your choice at the end. If you choose to defy fate, then the boy is a metaphor for the future, which you have destroyed. If you obey fate, then he is a metaphor for the fabric of reality, the balance between the elements, just as snowdog said in an earlier post.

BTW - When I made the prologue and chapter 1, I still didn't have the ending worked out. At that time, I was thinking the boy represents the future, and you will destroy it but there may be another. That's why that phrase appears a few times. In retrospect I might want to fine-tune some of that...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_furballs]

               The way I saw it it felt real like a i was living it for those few  last tense moments. The choice was difficult but  I just  couldn't  bring myself  to lie to my past self so I decided to go with free will.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_strannik16]

               I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will.  In the world we live in, the existence of free will is tenuous at best, as the biochemistry of our brains, formed by many factors beyond our control, has an inordinate influence on our thoughts, ideas and behavior.  And yet I view human lives as full of meaning, and I see that meaning in our interactions with our friends and loved ones, in the things we enjoy and the thoughts we think, in things we build and discover about our world.  Of course, I think the real world has enough complexity, randomness and unpredictability that we can enjoy an illusion of free will - but I don't think free will is necessary in order for life to have meaning. (As an aside, I don't believe in fate either - I think an interplay of rigid natural laws and randomness rules our lives.  It would have been nice to see this idea explored in more detail in the Prophet series, but I guess in a world where prophets can predict future events with absolute certainty, randomness needs to take a back seat.)

The Herezars, obviously, felt differently, and thought free will was the only thing that gave anyone's life meaning.  I sympathize with this view, but I utterly deplore the actions they took when they realized the world does not fit their preconceptions.  In their quest to impose their notion of "meaning" on the world, they were willing to murder their own children, plunge the world into a century of untold suffering, and finally destroy it completely.  Even if I were to agree with their philosophy, I wouldn't choose in their favor: for denying Fate would mean embracing and rewarding their atrocities.  The fact that I did not embrace their worldview made the choice easier still - though obviously, as it turned out, it was no choice at all.

That said, after making my choice and seeing the ending, I immediately loaded a saved game and tried the other option.  I have to admit: I like the free will ending better.  I guess the idea of free will is appealing on a primal, intrinsic level - even if may only be an illusion. '>

At any rate, thanks once again for this beautiful series.  I think it stands up as an example of the best of what the video game genre has to offer, and is an excellent work of fiction in its own right!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rafe34]

               

Baldecaran wrote...

It depends on your choice at the end. If you choose to defy fate, then the boy is a metaphor for the future, which you have destroyed. If you obey fate, then he is a metaphor for the fabric of reality, the balance between the elements, just as snowdog said in an earlier post.

BTW - When I made the prologue and chapter 1, I still didn't have the ending worked out. At that time, I was thinking the boy represents the future, and you will destroy it but there may be another. That's why that phrase appears a few times. In retrospect I might want to fine-tune some of that...

Yeah, that wasn't entirely clear to me. I think that's because every other vision literally comes to pass, whereas this one does not. I kept expecting to run into some woman who was Fate's avatar or something, and killing her child for some good reason that I did not know at the time I saw the vision.

The only reason why I came to the conclusion I did, which was partially correct, was because you use Lor's scepter to kill him. The only thing you could be sure I would use that weapon on was the Penteract.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rafe34]

               

strannik16 wrote...

I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will.  In the world we live in, the existence of free will is tenuous at best, as the biochemistry of our brains, formed by many factors beyond our control, has an inordinate influence on our thoughts, ideas and behavior.  And yet I view human lives as full of meaning, and I see that meaning in our interactions with our friends and loved ones, in the things we enjoy and the thoughts we think, in things we build and discover about our world.

How? How can they mean anything if what you do is pre-determined from the moment you are born?

How can you hold a murderer responsible for his actions if he was pre-destined to do it?

How can you give credit to a hero if he had no choice *but* to lay down his life for that child? What we enjoy was determined by factors outside our control, the interactions would already be predestined. What meaning is there if what we do is determined by those factors?

Do we condemn some and praise others for actions they had no choice but to do? This would be the same as telling a computer that answers a question correctly that it has done "good," and one that answers it incorrectly that it has done "wrong." In addition, you're also saying those computers still have meaning because of the way they interact with each other.

FTR- I think we do have free will in the real world, but I think its mostly because I see no meaning if everything is predestined, not because there is a clear argument for it, (or against it, for that matter).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rafe34, 03 novembre 2011 - 04:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

strannik16 wrote...

I chose to embrace Fate, not for any affinity towards her, but because I felt it would be monstrous to destroy the world over a questionable philosophical premise: namely, that our lives are meaningless in the absence of free will. ...

The Herezars, obviously, felt differently, and thought free will was the only thing that gave anyone's life meaning.  I sympathize with this view, but I utterly deplore the actions they took when they realized the world does not fit their preconceptions.  In their quest to impose their notion of "meaning" on the world, they were willing to murder their own children, plunge the world into a century of untold suffering, and finally destroy it completely.  Even if I were to agree with their philosophy, I wouldn't choose in their favor: for denying Fate would mean embracing and rewarding their atrocities.

Good point! Indeed, to choose free will is to choose to condone the Herezar plan, to reward their selfishness and give them the prize for which they were willing to sacrifice all of their descendants. Obviously, there really is no "good" ending.

-----------------

Given the fact that most people have chosen free will, I feel the need to try to defend choosing fate, as strannik and Zireael had done (I think they're the only ones so far). Of course, if most of you had chosen fate, I would now be trying to defend free will .

It has been said that with a fated universe, there is no meaning. But perhaps there's another way to look at the role that fate plays. Suppose that fate exists but it is not she who actually *decides* everyone's choices. Suppose that everyone's choices are indeed their own - they are consequences of their personality, their history, their place in the world. A knightly paladin may fight injustice because he has the means, while a thief might steal from the needy because he himself has never known mercy. So although they could make many different decisions, at each moment they only do make one. In other words: Although the world could in principle unfold in an infinite number of different ways, it actually does unfolds only in one way. And "fate" is merely an omniscient manifestation of this fact.

Consider it this way: Consider a hypothetical historian of the distant future, who can look back at our world and see everything in the slightest detail, rewinding or fast-forwarding over events at will, zooming in here or there. Would that historian be responsible for the things she sees? Of course not, not any more than a detective uncovering a crime would be responsible for that crime. Having knowledge of how the world unfolds is not the same as controlling it.

The difference with fate is that she stands outside of time, and thus makes it possible for knowledge of the future to enter the past. And then, when those who hear a prophecy see that they cannot change it, this shatters their illusion of a free will beyond the forces of history, our place in the world, and our personality. But what illusion is really being shattered? We do know that the world will only unfold in one way. It is still our way, shaped by our personalities and history. What other kind of free will would anyone want? Randomness?

From fate's omniscient perspective, all of time is a carving in stone. But it is not she who carves it. It is we who set it all into stone through our actions. Fate just watches, and occasionally allows the shape of time to become known to those within it, as long as no paradox is created. Like she said at the end of chapter 2, that prophetic sight was meant to be a gift to allow mortals to appreciate the beauty of creation.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Baldecaran, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Viriatus original]

               Hi.

I choose the option of change. Being a pawn all my life, across all the story, and so all the destruction of the Century of Sorrow had not served for anything. Also, with all my friends dead, in an era that it was not mine anymore, and a future dubious in which nothing could be changed... what Had I have to lose?

Also, by changing past, I ensured that my past self would have the oportunity of preventing the Century of Sorrow,  to enjoy a fulfilling, normal life, and that his future would be his, and not written by fate. It was the option I had wanted my previous (future) self had offered to me.

In the end, it was my only, true real choice... and I choose it.

----------------------------

The ending was superb, though in the end it resulted a bit annoying to discover that, anyway, you had been the last pawn of Lor to complete the creation. But since you were the one who could complete what the creator was not capable of, and that yours was the decission of giving the world the gift of free will... well, it is somewhat fulfilling too.

Of course, I also reloaded to see what happened if choosing the ''wrong" option. The closing of the circle was also very well carried on. But anyway, this ending is a bit sad. Fortunately, nobody (except the few prophets) should ever know about their 'cage'.


Again, congratulations for such a good job, and thank you very much for making it '>

----------------------
(Btw, a little glich I forgot to report: you can attack -and eventually kill- your past self -who doesn't try to defend- in the dream. But if so, you can not exit the dream, and got trapped. Maybe in the case of attacking it could be considered the same than altering the dream -or setting your past self to non-attackable-).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

Viriatus original wrote...

I choose the option of change. Being a pawn all my life, across all the story, and so all the destruction of the Century of Sorrow had not served for anything. Also, with all my friends dead, in an era that it was not mine anymore, and a future dubious in which nothing could be changed... what Had I have to lose?

Also, by changing past, I ensured that my past self would have the oportunity of preventing the Century of Sorrow,  to enjoy a fulfilling, normal life, and that his future would be his, and not written by fate. It was the option I had wanted my previous (future) self had offered to me.

Cool. I see now what it must be like to play through this series - so frustrating to have one's actions always flow to the same ultimate end. So I hope that final revolt against fate (and the linear storyline) is satisfying!

But now I wonder - in the universe of your past self, in which the Century of Sorrow will presumably not happen, are prophecies false?...

Thanks for your thoughts, and for pointing out some bugs. They're pretty easy fixes.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Ivan Grushenko]

               First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world  is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               

Ivan Grushenko wrote...

First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world  is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )

Just listening twice to the music...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Baldecaran]

               

Ivan Grushenko wrote...

First of all, I´ve to thank you, I really appreciated the module, one of the best I´ve played - probably the "top one" among the deeply roleplaying kind.
The places that you designed are simply astonishing. Great beauty between the Elven´s High City, the raw human village from the north, the desert of ice and emptiness, all the jungles and other natural landscapes. Fantastic architecture.
Well, I played like a druid, Lawful Neutral who have been tortured by his choices, frequently, defying the Nature itself. By his entire life, the only pattern that he could identify while observing the wild world  is the desire of "survive". He didn´t look further for a great aim, a superior and noble objective. Everything must keep on within their own existence. His tridimensional euclidean mind just could not understand a higher goal. The Nature is, but no one knows the purpose. Along the game, he turns out a Lawful Good character and his practical view of world, always so contemplative about the existence as a beatiful event that should prevail at all cost, has changed a lot. And finally, the perspective of a meaning makes him insane. The madness falls heavily against his head - even more after Llarien´s death. The beauty of life wasn´t enough anymore and in his ultimate effort, he brings end to the creation, to everything that he has vowed to protect in a distant past.
As you can notice, that dilemma made me to change my class, my poor character could not keep his beliefs and his moral sense.
Truly amazing, heartbreaking plot, great NPCs (especially Llarien) and a lot of philosophycal questions to be raised. Pure poetry. Thank you again. And you should contact Terry Gilliam and convince him to make a movie about... = )

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, if I had my choice of directors I would definitely choose Terry Gilliam. He has such a great eye for visual splendor.

The story of your character is very interesting. I didn't have druids in mind so much but I can see that they must be challenging to take through the mod. There's a powerful conflict between nature's demands for survival (and balance among all things) and the very human demand for free will. So tragic that he lost his mind and betrayed all he originally stood for... In a sense, it's like nature betraying itself: human nature betraying the natural order of things.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_RangerSG]

               Baldecaran,First off, thank you for your amazing work in NWN. Loved Honor Among Thieves, and enjoyed this as well.

The fights were a little easy for my sorceress. But that may be because I play a lot of mages and know what I'm doing now. '> There were a couple exceptions with the 'puzzle' fights (like the fire elemental). But that was more due to glitches in the engine than difficulty in the battle itself.

As far as the choice went, if my prophetess knew how many of her alternate universe brethren chose "free will" I think she'd be loosing a multiverse level IGMS. '> (Now, to be fair, I did save before and try just about every convo combination I could think of.)

Blaming Fate for the Herezer's monstrosity stunned her. And she never thought of herself as being manipulated any 'less' by them than she was by Fate. Chaotic Good (starting CN actually and drifting good over the game) or not, choosing life was the only thing that made sense.

Furthermore, she never accepted the Herezer's argument that Fate means choice losing meaning. Fate and Lor are necessarily outside of time, they have to be to Create. A prophet only sees portions of time from within, and without concern for the sequence. Differing perspectives mean the chain of causality is not the same. There is still room for authentic choice. Which, she would submit, is all you 'ever' really have.

It's not "free will" to destroy creation. It's manipulated as much as Fate's decrees. Evenorn's memories point this out. "It can't be an easy choice...." That doesn't cease to make it your character's responsibility and morality. Even in a "Fateless" universe, there would still be manipulated choices.

Why is it alright for an immoral group of mortals to manipulate you, but the Creators of the universe...who actually CARE about it...are 'evil' to influence in any way? hmmm...

Now, I have to admit, having walked the halls of theology and philosophy departments for a while, IRL I've put more than my fair share of thought into this. There is no such thing as Free Will, not in the meaning anyone *wants* it to have. You don't have free will about what color socks you wear. But you do have authentic choice. All choices are influenced. By culture, time, money, and circumstances. That doesn't make them less REAL, even if I can predict which choice you're about to make. It only ceases to be real if I intervene in such a way as to remove the choice from you. My knowledge of your predictability does not remove your ability to act out of character.

When the choice ceases to be real is when the influence becomes COERCION. For what it's worth, I think that's 'exactly' what the Herezer's tried to do. They didn't remove themselves from the choice. They forced you to walk their 'dilemma.' But it was a dilemma set up by their own anger at having been enslaved in the past. An excessively dichotomist view of the world that cannot accept that there is compatibility when something is viewed from two different perspectives. Yes, Lor/Fate know the future. But they don't have to coerce to make it happen. Even predestination is not coercion. That which is destined may not be denied. But how it comes to pass does not have to be rubber-stamped on your soul. It does not mean Clockwork Orange brainwashing (which is how my sorceress felt about what the Herezers were trying to do--assuming she knew what the movie was, that is '> ).

Anyway, I've tried to think what kind of character I could make that would choose to follow the Herezers. It would have to be someone very jaded and angry in a way she was never able to become. She went to sorrowful, bitter to an extent. But saddened more than all else.

Anyway, Thank you again. Part of me has wondered if I overlooked some great different in cosmology for your world (though I've played all the Runelands mods, so I don't 'think' I did). But for her, like you mentioned, there was only ever one choice. She was always going to save life, even if that meant destroying her own.