Author Topic: The Prophet Series - spoiler discussion thread  (Read 9515 times)

Legacy_Rafe34

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The Prophet Series - spoiler discussion thread
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2011, 12:17:00 am »


               Silvius here.

I really don't know why I have so many different names. Maybe I'm typing this from an alternate universe or something.

Triss, (my character, started as CN, went to CG over the course of the series), chose to defy fate and tell the truth to her past self for a single reason.

Perhaps she lied to herself a bit too, and said she was doing this to rid the world of a tyrant, that it was better to die free than live a slave. Perhaps she said it was for the million years of history, that making all of their actions free was such a great gift it was worth any sacrifice. 

The reality is that she did not care one whit about people who were dead and gone, and would never walk the earth again. She did not truly care whether Fate was pulling their strings or not- she never knew them, and the vast majority never knew that they were merely puppets. As Uther Palandras said, a chain unfelt does not fetter the heart.

The reality of it is that all of those great reasons for doing what she did, paled in comparison to this: she simply could not bear the thought that all that Llarien did was completely pre-ordained to happen, and that he was not responsible for any of his actions: from helping her when Merudoc turned on her, to following her even to the penteract itself, to saving her from Isandra even though he may have lost hope. All of that would be worthless, in her eyes, if it was simply Fate pulling the strings of a puppet. She had fallen in love with him, and could not bear the thought that her feelings were simply yet another piece of someone else's painting, and that if he returned those feelings, his too would simply be a puppet doing what the grand puppeteer told him to do. If she did not defy fate, then all of his actions were not truly his, but simply someone else pulling his strings.

And Llarien was already dead, having made the ultimate sacrifice to give her the ultimate choice. Let her die then as well, and in the process make their deaths *worth* something.

So she condemned the world for one man. Does that make her a monster or a hero? I'm not really sure myself.

And dear gods, I do NOT want to play this module with a paladin. How the hell would a *lawful good* paladin make a choice at the end? Seems like a LN vs CG/CN choice at the end. My best guess would be something like he tells his past self the truth and begs for their help. (And gets turned down, I think.)

Simply fantastic, Baldecaran. Absolutely great ending to one of, if not the best module series on the vault. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rafe34, 13 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Maldrach

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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2011, 04:09:59 pm »


               My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.

I generally play paly as intelligent beings who think before they act, and try to work for the greater good, even if it means letting some evils to happen, or make a truce with enemies.

And so, all the serie was a great struggle between what my paly thought he has to do and what he standed for. He tried so much to avert the century of sorrow, just to realize that he started it, that he had been betrayed by his future self... He almost went mad, and vow he would not deceive himself.

And so, at the end of days, he was confronted with the final choice.
And he thought alot, to finally tell the truth to his former self. The reasons were quite simple in the end:
He had vowed not to deceive himself.
He offers his former self a redemption before he got damned, and thus he achieve part of a redemption for him.
And last but not least, he considered that if fate rules the world, then his life as a paladin, everything he believes in, and everything he had been fighting for or against, were just a great mascarade which means nothing at all. Given free will, all his life would take a sense, and the life of others too. Given fate, then the most evil people were just as he, a paladin. and this my character could not allow, even if to change it, he would damned himself.

So he choose to say the truth, destroy his world, and then he wept watching the end of days.


Oh by the way, I am truly happy to have played this serie with a paladin, for given the story, the choices we have to do and the consequences of our acts, the paladin offers dilemna that are very hard to resolve.
I honestly think that this mod is made for paladins, if you play them like I do.


Thank you baldecaran, for it was amazing. The best module I ever played; which will propbaly never be equalled.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Maldrach, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:27 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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The Prophet Series - spoiler discussion thread
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2011, 06:30:46 pm »


               

Maldrach wrote...

My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.
... 
I honestly think that this mod is made for paladins, if you play them like I do.
...

Just what Maldrach said.
If you want dilemma and role playing, paladin is the most tortuous and devastating way to play "Prophet". 
What could be better than hell itself for a true paladin... 
Lawful, but lawful to what?
Lawful, when there are no more laws? Not even a world? 

If anyone's got another class in mind, I would be really interested. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:41 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Rafe34

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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2011, 01:38:20 am »


               Triss was a Barb/Bard/RDD, which hit level 10 in RDD right before the plane of fire, and made that place a hell of a lot easier to play, lol.

Blackguard might be just as interesting as Paladin. I don't think either choice is intrinsically a good or evil choice, it is the motivations of the character that makes it a good or evil choice.

Triss's final choice was, if not evil, then at least selfish.
Maldrach's final choice was clearly good.

Yet they chose the same ending.

That's why I love this module so much.

Harper Scout played correctly would be very interesting, as would a Monk of essentially any alignment. 

Also if anyone is looking for another module series to play and has not played the Rose of Eternity, they should give it a try. It's the only module series on the vault that is in the same class as Prophet.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rafe34, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Rafe34

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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2011, 01:45:04 am »


               

Saltius wrote...

My choice is to let the dice roll. Thus I typed d2 in the console then and it returned 1 to me.

So the prophet chose telling the truth to the past self , the doom of the world and the free will accordingly.

It would be fair enough for both past born and future unborn if that dice was totally of randomness.

Else If the dice's result was pre-determined, then it was the fate herself who brought her own defeat.


I like this way.

If fate truly pre-determines what is going to happen, then she would make the dice roll accordingly. If she does not, then...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Baldecaran

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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2011, 10:27:00 pm »


               

Rafe34 wrote...

Triss, (my character, started as CN, went to CG over the course of the series), chose to defy fate and tell the
truth to her past self for a single reason.

...she simply could not bear the thought that all that Llarien did was completely pre-ordained to happen, and that he was not responsible for any of his actions: from helping her when Merudoc turned on her, to following her even to the penteract itself, to saving her from Isandra even though he may have lost hope. All of that would be worthless, in her eyes, if it was simply Fate pulling the strings of a puppet. She had fallen in love with him, and could not bear the thought that her feelings were simply yet another piece of someone else's painting, and that if he returned those feelings, his too would simply be a puppet doing what the grand puppeteer told him to do. If she did not defy fate, then all of his actions were not truly his, but simply someone else pulling his strings.

And Llarien was already dead, having made the ultimate sacrifice to give her the ultimate choice. Let her die then as well, and in the process make their deaths *worth* something.

So she condemned the world for one man. Does that make her a monster or a hero? I'm not really sure myself.


Now that is poetic! A whole world destroyed for the sake of love. But then, if even a world must someday die, what better cause could it die for? It is like that saying, that whoever saves a life saves the world, except here the causality is inverted in time. It is like deciding, in the name of all who have lived, that our emotions are what our lives are for, and that making them real is more important than anything else.

It's a very poetic way to interpret the final choice. And yet, I can't help feeling that there is something terribly sad about it. Was Triss really thinking this way, as the champion of a world of emotions, or was she just being selfish? Did she reject being a slave of fate and instead choose to be a slave of her own emotions?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Baldecaran, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:49 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Baldecaran

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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2011, 11:46:18 pm »


               

Maldrach wrote...

My character was a paladin. And honestly, it was hell to play through the serie with him.

...all the serie was a great struggle between what my paly thought he has to do and what he standed for. He tried so much to avert the century of sorrow, just to realize that he started it, that he had been betrayed by his future self... He almost went mad, and vow he would not deceive himself.

And so, at the end of days, he was confronted with the final choice.
And he thought alot, to finally tell the truth to his former self. The reasons were quite simple in the end:
He had vowed not to deceive himself.
He offers his former self a redemption before he got damned, and thus he achieve part of a redemption for him.
And last but not least, he considered that if fate rules the world, then his life as a paladin, everything he believes in, and everything he had been fighting for or against, were just a great mascarade which means nothing at all. Given free will, all his life would take a sense, and the life of others too. Given fate, then the most evil people were just as he, a paladin. and this my character could not allow, even if to change it, he would damned himself.

So he choose to say the truth, destroy his world, and then he wept watching the end of days.


Tragic... It seems as if he did it in response to the suffering he went through from watching his most honorable intentions ruined by the cruelty of fate. He did it to achieve redemption. But at what a price!! Was it not a terribly selfish act, betraying all life for one man's honor? And even if he did it to give meaning to history - would history without free will really have no meaning? Does a painting convey nothing because it is a painting, or can it tell a meaningful story anyway?

Of course, it's easy for me to raise these points, but much harder to make the choice myself. What would I have done in your place, playing an intelligent paladin with a deep conscience? Honestly: I have no idea! I suppose it's impossible to say unless I were to play through the series without knowing the ending. The tough thing about vows is that our knowledge is always limited, always ignorant from some larger perspective. And some new facts can make irrelevant the context of our vows, turning them from good to great evil. So what is one's duty to: law, and keeping a vow; or good, and saving the lives of millions?

Yes, I agree with you and jml that playing a paladin adds an extra challenge. What is one to remain lawful to?

Thank you for your very intriguing perspectives!
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Baldecaran, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:52 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2011, 01:23:57 am »


               Yeap. That makes 'Prophet' also the best roleplaying module I ever played.
I really thought I destroyed the Earth for a few seconds. I'm still not sure I didn't, 'seeing how it looks today.
Would I be responsible? Baldecaran, what have you done!
Who are you, really? Could this module be not a game but the most devilish detonator?

For ever in my brain, and NWN signature.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Le Penombre

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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2011, 10:20:18 am »


               I did play the whole series as a Paladin, and it was a thoroughly challenging and enlightening experience. Because, unless i’m sadly mistaken, a paladin is not someone driven by a single polarity in his existence, but TWO polarities instead : Law and Good.

When most people read Lawful Good, they see « Lawful Â» first. Try reading it the other way, Good Lawful, for instance '<img'>

What happens whenever a Lawful Good character is confronted with tyrannical laws, or absurd bureaucracy ? Does he submit to them and tells everyone « well, that's the law and i’m sworn to uphold it Â» ? Where is « Good Â» in this ?

When the law is bad, you change the law. If you don't even want to consider this possibility, then you're not Lawful Good. You're Lawful Neutral. Period. Lawful Neutral would only change laws to make them more efficient and foolproof. Lawful Good will take care that the laws are or become as just and fair as they can be. 

Striking against unfair laws is not Chaos, unless you want no laws at all. Striking against unfair laws to make them change, to strive for improvement,  is « good Â» because in this LG perspective, laws are made for people, and not just for themselves. Hence « Lawful Good Â» and not « Lawful Crybaby Â».Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice many, so that many more would gain in this. Not because of self-delusions about godhood or conscience, but because when you’re the Prophet, there is simply no-one else to make this choice, between offering a possibility of doing it better, or simply to perpetuate the same old lie.

Uther was right in trying to oppose Fate, in this regard, even if he was only playing his part according to what he was allowed to see. I feel sorry about the millions i saw die, some of them still hoping i would help them. Some of them dying in hope they could make a difference , although in fact, they too were doing what Fate expected of them. Uther, Merudoc, Llarien and the poor Evernorn, who certainly paid the worst price there was to pay (years of hope, loneliness and madness until his final betrayal... for nothing since until the very last - and only - choice i had to make, everything was set in stone). 

Yes, as a story that was beautifully done, because it was very saddening. Was it delusion to strive for a « greater good Â» while allowing all those hopes to be crushed before your eyes, by your own hand ? Was it really worth it to betray the hopes of scared children, the fears of a long lost friend and everything else ?

But the choice was far easier to make, by considering things from a different angle.

If i chose Fate, all the dead would remain dead. This world would heal, people would eventually forget or build legends about the Century of Sorrow, but those who had already died would remain dead, those who had survived would live the rest of their days with their suffering, their loss, their pain and their memories, just because it is so written.
Until they too died, and new generations would arise to play their own part, as slaves and pawns of Fate. Fate which has its own meaning, its own purpose, without consideration for anything else.

That is not « Law Â». That is just a self-perpetuating tyranny, complete with false hopes, false dreams and
absolutely nothing else but puppets playing their own charades.

If you are Lawful Neutral, then, law is in itself an absolute and that is fine. But if you’re Lawful Good, law must have a purpose, or it must be changed to get one.

Do you really think that freewill means Chaos ? I don’t.

Because people can still make laws, organize society, strive to improve together. There is a possibility they will make it right. There is hope and, potentially, success. Without Fate, those laws, those societies made by mortals would be their own. Good or bad, people would be responsible for their actions. Responsible for their own failures, and their own successes.

Freewill  means uncertainty, but it can provides lots of good things, even good laws. You fail, or you succeed, because of what you do, even if you’re misguided, you do not just « play Â» your part, you really DO it.

Fate do not provide everything except her own self-sustaining eternal tyranny. There is no room for improvement, for « good Â», in this. Only the pursuit of illusion. Laws that are illusory because everything is already written are not worth anything, they do not allow people to be anything at all. Not good, not bad, not respectful, not rebellious. NOTHING.

Who could you congratulate, accuse, miss or hate if there is absolutely no choice ? What would be the purpose of feeling pain, sorrow, hope, love and all the rest if they do not really exist – not even for yourself- but are just predetermined special effects provided with the script of everyone’s fate ?

There is no virtue in doing the right thing if you’re  not really doing it, but just playing your part. Where is salvation, where is hope, where is the meaning of law (or the meaning of chaos as a matter of fact) if everything is set in stone and everyone is just playing his part in the script ? How do you feel sorry, hopeful, angered, happy or sad when you realize you do not feel at all, but are just playing your part ?

So, i chose to rebel. Not for myself, since as the Prophet, i was effectively the only one to really feel anything under Fate’s yoke. 

I did it because i realised that everyone else's suffering wasn't really suffering. Whatever they hoped, felt, said... was not their own. It was just what was written by Fate.

I felt sorry for all of them, because i knew that all the pain they endured... wasn't really pain. They felt it nonetheless as real, but it wasn't real, because they had no say, not even once, in their suffering. 

They were only doing what was written. I saw them die. In choosing to oppose Fate, i made them die, but in the end, i was the only one to really do, and feel, something true. 

This Law of Fate is not life. This is illusion and what can be worse than a law that decrees everyone is not real but just there for the show ? That not one thought, not one feeling, not one moment is anything but a special effect for the audience ? And what about this audience, as a matter of fact ? Yes... what about it...

As a paladin, i did rebel  because this was the only way to change the law, to give it a purpose, and
hopefully a good one. To break the Law of Fate and offer something new instead.

Freewill, also known as the Law of Consequences.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Le Pénombre, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:08 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_jmlzemaggo

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« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2011, 01:00:30 pm »


               Just curious: why Le Pénombre?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Le Penombre

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« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2011, 01:40:10 pm »


               That's a kind of private joke, for someone who wanted to know if i was the Pénombre he thought (which is the case).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rafe34

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2011, 01:24:49 am »


               

Baldecaran wrote...

Now that is poetic! A whole world destroyed for the sake of love. But then, if even a world must someday die, what better cause could it die for? It is like that saying, that whoever saves a life saves the world, except here the causality is inverted in time. It is like deciding, in the name of all who have lived, that our emotions are what our lives are for, and that making them real is more important than anything else.

It's a very poetic way to interpret the final choice. And yet, I can't help feeling that there is something terribly sad about it. Was Triss really thinking this way, as the champion of a world of emotions, or was she just being selfish? Did she reject being a slave of fate and instead choose to be a slave of her own emotions?


I definitely think selfishness played into it a bit. I said as much in a later post, and I certainly don't think she was a champion, or did something great and noble.

To answer your question more fully, however, I'm going to have to go back a bit.

At the end of chapter II, Triss lost all hope. Everything she had done to prevent it had merely caused the century of sorrow, Merudoc was dead, and Llarien had abandoned her.

She knew what would have to happen to bring Llarien back, and she told the Vigil to do it anyway, even knowing that he himself would rather stay dreaming than sacrifice another to come back, thinking she was going to get her friend back, that there was still hope- and then he refuses to come along.

When that happened, something broke inside. Her last friend thought there was no hope, and refused to accompany her any longer.  At the village where you are supposed to save the villagers, she simply charged in with a frontal assault. Possibly hoping the wizard would kill her. She didn't bother to raise anyone, and simply told them to go back to the city, and then left. 

When Isandra betrayed her, she didn't attempt to get out, even welcomed her death. 

And then Llarien shows up and rescues her, and she begins healing inside, just a bit. By the time they get to plane of death, she has convinced herself that they are going to do it, they are going to stop the world from ending, and then afterwards, maybe... 

When Llarien died, she fell apart. He left her there on the ground, still weeping. She stayed there for a long time before leaving that place. I think that maybe I neglected to think of something else that motivated her: revenge. After all, in her eyes, it was Fate who had caused the century of sorrow, Fate who had killed Merudoc and Norenshire and Llarien. I doubt she truly thought about the fact that if there was no fate, much of it would be on her own hands.

Given the choice, however, between letting Fate get away with it, (in her eyes), and taking Fate down by her own death, and the death of the world, there wasn't even a contest. She hardly listened to anyone's advice prior to making her choice.

She told her past self the whole truth, the whole story, (a little outside the lines of the dialogue here), and when the past Triss told her that she hoped she would have been able to make the same sacrifice- then she was at peace.

Perhaps she would get to see Llarien again, but even if not, their actions had been their own. They were not mere puppets, or simply a portrait painted by someone else. They were the artists. And to her, that was worth any sacrifice.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rafe34, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Rafe34

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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2011, 01:39:52 am »


               

Baldecaran wrote...

Tragic... It seems as if he did it in response to the suffering he went through from watching his most honorable intentions ruined by the cruelty of fate. He did it to achieve redemption. But at what a price!! Was it not a terribly selfish act, betraying all life for one man's honor? And even if he did it to give meaning to history - would history without free will really have no meaning? Does a painting convey nothing because it is a painting, or can it tell a meaningful story anyway?


History without free will would have meaning. It would not be near as meaningful as history with free will, however.

It's like this. Let us say that we have a beautiful painting, in our analogy, the painting is all of history. We ask a guide at the museum the meaning of the painting, and he tells us what they believe its meaning to be. We nod, agree or disagree, possibly form our own conclusions, etc.

Now, same scenario, we have a painting. Only this time, we ask the artist the meaning of the painting, not some museum guide, or expert that has, at best, a second-hand knowledge, if they even knew what the meaning was in the first place. Is the painting not far more meaningful to its observers after this second scenario than in the first?

In Prophet, your choice is to let this great portrait, all of history, be drawn by a single being, Fate.

Or- for each and every person who has ever lived to draw their own part of the picture, and to create the painting together.

Which portrait of history, would you say, has more meaning?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rafe34, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Baldecaran

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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2011, 12:31:02 am »


               

jmlzemaggo wrote...

Yeap. That makes 'Prophet' also the best roleplaying module I ever played.
I really thought I destroyed the Earth for a few seconds. I'm still not sure I didn't, 'seeing how it looks today.
Would I be responsible? Baldecaran, what have you done!
Who are you, really? Could this module be not a game but the most devilish detonator?


':devil:'  That's right! You found me out. I've got my hand hovering over a big red "Destruct" button and am collecting votes to see whether people would like to see the universe destroyed. So far, according to the comments made here, it doesn't look good for the future...
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Baldecaran

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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2011, 12:34:18 am »


               

Le Pénombre wrote...

I did play the whole series as a Paladin, and it was a thoroughly challenging and enlightening
experience.

...

If i chose Fate, all the dead would remain dead. This world would heal, people would eventually forget or build legends about the Century of Sorrow, but those who had already died would remain dead, those who had survived would live the rest of their days with their suffering, their loss, their pain and their memories, just because it is so written. Until they too died, and new generations would arise to play their own part, as slaves and pawns of Fate. Fate which has its own meaning, its own purpose, without consideration for anything else.

That is not « Law Â». That is just a self-perpetuating tyranny, complete with false hopes, false dreams and absolutely nothing else but puppets playing their own charades.

If you are Lawful Neutral, then, law is in itself an absolute and that is fine. But if you’re Lawful Good, law must have a purpose, or it must be changed to get one.

Do you really think that freewill means Chaos ? I don’t.

...

So, i chose to rebel. Not for myself, since as the Prophet, i was effectively the only one to really feel anything under Fate’s yoke. 

I did it because i realised that everyone else's suffering wasn't really suffering. Whatever they hoped, felt, said... was not their own. It was just what was written by Fate.

...

As a paladin, i did rebel because this was the only way to change the law, to give it a purpose, and hopefully a good one. To break the Law of Fate and offer something new instead.

...

Freewill, also known as the Law of Consequences.


Well said. But what about LIFE? As little Endrik gazed up at you with admiration did you explain to him these abstract concepts of free will? He felt his fear and his hopes whether or not they were destined to be felt. If you had never come along, and Uther and other prophets just kept their mouths shut, then all the world would see fate as merely a hypothetical idea with no more substance than angels dancing on the tips of needles. It would be hard to convince them that their children must die in the name of such notions.

I'm just being a devil's advocate, of course. I love reading the reasons people chose what they did, and don't believe there's a right choice at all. So thanks for your comments!!
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Baldecaran, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:05 .