Design Decisions: Persuade/Bluff/Intimitade

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               Recently, while playing an otherwise splendid SP module, I came across a slightly frustrating situation which reminded me of one of my pet peeves with NWN mechanics:

In my opinion Persuade, Bluff and Intimidate are basically the same skills in different disguises. It's a roleplay decision which method of influencing NPCs suits your character more and it's cool that you can choose between them. What I don't like about it is the combination of the following facts:

(1) You have to invest skill points in at least one of these categories in order to be able to persuade, bluff or intimitade.
(2) Just because you're good at bluffing doesn't mean you can persuade, too. You'd need to invest in both skills for that. It's questionable whether that would make a lot of sense, you're probably better off in choosing just one. That means you make the roleplay decision only once, on character creation, and not during conversations anymore.
(3) How many skill points you have to invest is dependent on the choices the mod author made. In some modules you won't need these skills at all because the author did not cater to them - all your skillpoints are wasted in this case. In other modules the Difficulty class of the checks is rather low, so that someone who has invested in one of the skills will always succeed at them; and then there are some where you need all the skillpoints you can get in order to have a chance at success. In some modules the skills are checked all the time, in others there might only be one or two situations where you actually need them. Unless the author warns you about these design decisions, you have no way of knowing whether it will be worth it to invest in these skills and how many skillpoints would be required on average.
(4) How fast you can build up your skill and how high it will get, also depends on your class choice. Some classes are supposed to be better at persuading, others at bluffing or intimidating. And some are challenged in all three categories.
(5) In most cases you don't need any of these skills to finish a module. Successful skill checks often lead to small xp, gold or item rewards you can probably live without, if need be. What I feel is often underestimated though is that from a storytelling point of view, the paths that include success at these skill checks are often a lot more rewarding than the paths where PCs fail to persuade, bluff or intimidate. That means if you care about the story and NPCs of a module and not just about material or OOC rewards, your enjoyment of parts of the game might be seriously hampered if you don't invest in these skills.
(6) From my experience, persuasion, bluffing and intimitadion are the most popular design choices to successfully deal with an encounter, apart from brute force. The other skills are very rarely used as alternatives on these occasions and seldom have such a big impact on the story; they're mostly just game mechanics that e.g. make combat more easier or other things more comfortable for you.

So I feel there's an imbalance in the relation of how accessible Persuade/Bluff/Intimitade are to all PCs on the one hand and the nearly monopolistc importance of these skills for a satisfactory storytelling and roleplay experience on the other hand.


What are your views on that? And how do you deal with it as a mod author?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:46 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

                "while playing an otherwise splendid SP module..."
First give us its name, and then only maybe I'll read the rest of your post... 

In the meantime... I rarely played a community module heavy on any of these skills. Tending myself to play mostly fragile but smart PCs, I'm very fond of the persusasion one, as I can't see my sorceress, who usually calls for a henchman to get rid of a simple fly, going for intimidation.
Beside? Persuasion is the skill generally chosen in many of the many modules I played, which suits me fine.
Beside? Bluffing is on the lying side and I've got some personal problem with lies, even within a game. Intimidating? I could kill an opponent in a game more easily than intimidate him. And it would take hours to explain why... but only a couple of seconds to simply state it. So, let's keep it simple.

I always went for "persuade" all along my NWN career, and never regretted it... so far.

Anyway, if you fail an unexpected as well as extremely rare, almost impolite, "bluff" check, just kill the guy. That's my "player only" motto, to save my soul from such a difficult decision.
Now... as the mod author I used to be... anything beautifully and strongly written, even in the wrongest direction, makes that particular "anything" more interesting... than the other way around.
Many authors give you some clues about their choice in that matter in their "Read me".
Another way to deal with it would be to "adjust" it, regarding what class you're actually playing...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:37 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               I use each of these skills a good deal and very differently in my module / server. Pursuade is geared toward 'friendly/non-antagonistic' manipulation of interactions, it is linked to grifting (con man stuff for money or rumors). Intimidate is linked to extortion (similar to con man but antagonistic/threatening) and also is used as a gauge of if we should offer 'mean spirited' conversation options. Bluff is more about lying, we key the offering of untruthful options in convos to this skill, and also use it in many attempts to trick or deceive.



There are other uses too, but these are in the main the best I think.



Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_LeeMer47]

               I usually don't use the three because the NPCs talking either will give the information freely, or are too powerfully minded to give up information they don't want to. I do use it though, mostly in monster conversations as you don't feel bad threatening or lying to a monster. There are rare ocassions when a human's personality allows bluffing or intimidation. I am more likely to use sleight of hand, performing and tumbling.



As a player my characters often have high enough intelligence for bonus points so I have excess points to use. So I put them in one or two helpful skills. Usually I have mages persuade, rogues bluff and fighters intimidate.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

jmlzemaggo wrote...

 "while playing an otherwise splendid SP module..."
First give us its name, and then only maybe I'll read the rest of your post... 

I'll recommend it to you in private. Check your PMs. '>

But the thread isn't really about discussing this particular module, it's about the system in general; about my observation that it's not fair to pit roleplay/storytelling related skills against combat/ease-of-use skills . I don't want to choose between the two categories, I want choices WITHIN these two categories. So while I like the choice between persuading, bluffing and intimidating, often the more important question is: Did you put skill points in ANY of these story-related skills at all or did you waste(?!) them on combat/ease-of-use skills?

Another point is, Persuasion, Intimidation and Bluff are roleplaying devices but the system works against this idea. Basically you just have to choose what skill you put points in, regardless of the situation at hand and no matter what the actual conversation option is, or fail and miss out on a satisfactory course of the story (depending on how the skills are integrated in the module). "Just kill that guy" if you don't manage to get an understanding (because you relied on the wrong skills and/or you got a bad dice roll) isn't my idea of satisfactory story...

Like I said, this isn't about getting the best reward out of a NPC but about serious things like finding satisfactory solutions to a problem or conclusions to a (side) story. If a module uses skill checks for these things at all, IMO it's more fun if there are alternatives to them that provide equally satisfying game experience; e.g. the use of different skills (not just different versions of the same skill choice),  puzzles, whatever. Combat, too, but it shouldn't end in tragedy. Also funny or interesting outcomes if a PC fails a check (instead of disappointing ones) etc. A gaming experience that doesn't lead to endlessly reloading and retrying because the player rightly feels there's only one good and one bad solution, success or failure.

And why does a sorcerer with heroic charisma still have to spend the double amount of skill points for these roleplaying/problem solving skills compared to other classes (and considering these skills are a must if you're in for satisfactory stories and roleplaying experiences)?

               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               Always provide more than one way to an outcome. Always provide multiple outcomes. Rules I live by.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_jmlzemaggo]

               I found those "conversation" skills very rarely used around NWN actually, so I'd rather have high tumble, hiding or move silently skill level at that point.

You should see my Rogue/Sorceress/Shadowdancer in action sometimes. The only problem is once you see her, you die most of the time. Wizard seems like a better choice at first, but I'm a big fan of that charisma idea, and I found it easier to deal with the spells, using just the one I need wathever situation comes up.

Beside, I always thought a high charisma was added to your persuasion check, doesn't it?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bubba McThudd]

               I just use persuade and intimidate - the carrot and the stick - bluff seems redundant.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

jmlzemaggo wrote...
Beside, I always thought a high charisma was added to your persuasion check, doesn't it?

Yes, but if you rely on your charisma alone it won't get you very far with Persuasion. A character with 10 charisma and lots of skill points in Persuade is a better salesman than a character of the same level with high charisma but just average Persuade stats, I believe.

Maybe there should be a fourth variant, finally an influencing class skill for sorcerers: The Evil Eye!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               For SP I don't see any problems using all of them, now there is just question how high DC should be, if it will be low it will allow to sucess also for those who have not that skill as class skill, if high it won't allows bards/sorcerers to sucess without taking any skill ranks in those skills. Both ways have their own pros and cons however.



If we are talking about PWs... well these skills are baad.



First, the reward for success designed by module builder is in most cases not worth to putting points into those skills. Also, unlike lets say discipline these skills are used rarely (+ there are three skills so that makes it even more rare for character that can put points only into one) and they normally cannot be used in combat which makes them disadvantaging. Because everyone needs to fight, but not everyone needs to make quests etc.



Second, skills can be raised via bard song, ability boost, prayer, items... This makes these skills needless, especially if the DC is low (and it should be low), bard specifically can get what he wants just by maxing his charismy via items and spells and singing a song... Also in PW you need just one guy that have these skills to get what you want.



Third, I don't have skill points to spare at all. Now every good character needs some skills for combat use, discipline, councentration, spellcraft, tumble, taunt... If there is not true seeing then even spot and listen. Rogues needs hide move silently, open lock, disarm trap and search, now where the hell do I should get points for all of this??



Also the most stupid thing that can happen only at PW is the requirement to persuade some NPC vs DC 50+ to get key to the dungeon... Thats soo silly, especially if this is one of few usages of that skill. Now what will happen? Some player make character that can persuade that NPC, gets as many keys as possible and give them to his friends. If this is what you want, you should think again.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               We provide many opportunities to use all available skills. Our BARDs frequently use grifting or carouse (both based on persuade skill and given bonus for cha mod) to gain info when 'new in town' and also for earning some cash when needed (some are total vagabonds). While we might allow one to obtain an important 'key' we also allow for a good pickpocket, a smart ambush, or even crafting a key by an EPIC rogue, among other methods.



While it can be very handy to have PCs with most all the skills in a party, it is not necessary that every PC have all the skills; viva la differance!



G
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

ehye_khandee wrote...

While we might allow one to obtain an important 'key' we also allow for a good pickpocket, a smart ambush, or even crafting a key by an EPIC rogue, among other methods.

G

Right, as long as the "social" skill is not the only option, its okay.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               There is a system on the Vault I was pointed to the other day by Kilana and her disguise system. It actually did a Synergy Bonus between the skills and something I am expanding on as well.



It kind of reminded me of the UMD Synergy bonus from Demetrious way back when I first started playing NWN.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               

FR Mulm wrote...
There is a system on the Vault I was pointed to the other day by Kilana and her disguise system. It actually did a Synergy Bonus between the skills and something I am expanding on as well.

It kind of reminded me of the UMD Synergy bonus from Demetrious way back when I first started playing NWN.

Could you provide a link? '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Fester Pot]

               I used these three skills in Almraiven and Shadewood but they were not the only options if one happened to miss out on the check.

Normally, the order went -

Bluff
Persuade
Intimidate

If one failed on bluff, persuade and intimidate was available, along with handing over dinars or casting a spell. If one failed on persuade, intimidate was available along with handing over dinars or casting a spell.

When all else failed, dinars was the option along with casting a spell.

For a Wizard/Sorcerer series, some did not like the fact that these skills were used because of cross class spending on points. Even so, having spells as Acid Splash, Charm Person, Electric Jolt, Fear, Ghoul Touch, Hold Person, Scare and Tasha's Hideous Laughter memorized offered a greater range of gathering information while offering dinars as payment was the quick and easy way - 5, 10 or 20 dinars.

Such a system was designed to avoid combat or gather information through conversation to move the story forward.

I personally enjoy modules that add these type of interactions for the player and a lot of that had to do with the release of Witches Wake, which really gave a little more to the player through conversation choices rather than pure hack and slash.

It's refreshing.

FP!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Fester Pot, 13 septembre 2010 - 01:11 .