Sanctum of the Archmage

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               MagicalMaster: There's a lot here to respond to, some of which I'll have to get to later. But here are some comments for now.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Also, I can't seem to find an option to tell your companion to NOT heal themselves (or anyone).  They keep trying to cast Cure Minor Wounds on themselves while getting attacked by mobs doing 5+ damage each per hit and it just makes things worse.  Or even Cure Light Wounds, same deal.  Spellcasting set as "off" on tactics but they still heal.

That's a "feature" of the Module Builder's Henchman Kit, which the Sanctum AI is based on. I tend to agree with your assessment, but I haven't been able to find a way to do what you're suggesting, despite spending a fair amount of time trying. If you know how, please tell me and I'll add it into the next update. '>

Also also -- why is the Sight based on Lore?  When trying to cure a certain person was in a bad condition.  I had a choice between Appraise and Lore and figured I'd go Appraise (and use Identify if I needed to identify anything) -- which seemed doubly a good choice because my companion can also identify stuff easily with their high Lore.

Just to clarify: The Sight isn't "based on Lore" per se. The particular thing you're trying to do in that scene is, though. What you're trying to do is to combine your own knowledge with hints from your talent to figure out how to perform a very difficult feat of magic. I suppose I could have based the check partly on Spellcraft or Use Magical Devices, but I thought that using Lore would be clearer and easier.

Except then there was a Sight/Lore check -- failed it initially.  Cast Identify and tried again -- succeeded.  Then tried to use the item and got told I didn't know how to use the item when my character had just said "Hey, I bet I can use this item!"  Then cast Identify again (since it expired during the conversation) and magically it worked.

It failed the first time because you took too long between casting and working through to the necessary point in the conversation. Identify has a very short duration, and I know from playtesting that you have to rush if you try to use it there. That's one of the reasons I gave you another item that may have forgotten you had, which makes handling that scene a lot easier. (Hint: It was a gift from Len.)

I don't know how the Sight check is calculated but I specifically made a character with 14 int, 10 wis (avoided a wisdom penalty), and high charisma (19 at the moment) but apparently that isn't even enough with 6 total modifier between the stats -- meaning a fighter with 14 Int/14 Wis/14 Cha would also apparently fail these checks, which seems a bit ridiculous.

Not if he used the above item, which was my intent. The details of how that check is done are explained in the Hint file if you want to check them out. In this case, that +6 is being added to your Lore skill, along with any other bonuses, and compared to a DC of 20.

These mechanical issues are seeming very odd and getting in the way of what is otherwise a very enjoyable module.  I'm seriously considering deleveling and releveling my character to drop Appraise for Lore -- this would have been nice to know AHEAD of time.  Or is this the "one situation where a high lore rating is crucial to continuing the game?" mentioned in the ReadMe?  If so, I seriously have to ask what the point of it is.

Yes, it is (that "one situation"). The item you may have forgotten to use, however, gets you most of the way there by itself. What's the point? Primarily, it's a thinking puzzle: "How can I massively boost my talent and Lore skills to accomplish this?" The premise behind it is the idea that wielding the complex magic necessary to perform that particular feat isn't something you should expect to be able to figure out easily. That's especially given the fact that at this point in the story, your talent is weak and unreliable.

Under normal circumstances, you should have what you need to restore Orion right when you find him. You can, however, go on from there and come back to try to help him later. The module takes that into account, and there's even a conversation with Robin shortly after you leave him that suggests traveling to the Earthen City to try to find or buy something there to boost your Lore.

MagicalMaster wrote...

Maybe I'm just oblivious, but given the fluid to the people suffering from the condition doesn't seem to do anything...they still seem to be "sick," telling me they feel sick, and having their stats go down.  Am I missing something?  Haven't rested since giving it to them either.

Orion's dialogue tells you that Handol's Journal can help you track the progress of their symptoms. Use it on anyone who is poisoned (Use Unique Power: Target a Companion) to see how many days they have left. Use the fluid on them and try it again. Also, check their stats before and after. The fewer days they have left, the lower their stats will sink; if they have more days left, they won't sink as far.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:21 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Do you mind discussing this here or would you prefer to keep it in PMs and use this thread for official updates and such?

Edit: and I hadn't forgotten about the book, just forgot the bonus from the spell you're talking about.  I knew it was substantially less than the other spell we've been discussing but I didn't realize it was pretty close at low level.  Difference of 20 points at level 40 but only 4 at level 8.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Do you mind discussing this here or would you prefer to keep it in PMs and use this thread for official updates and such?

I'm comfortable with whatever you prefer. I don't mind fielding questions and feedback on the thread.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I'd prefer here if you seriously have no objections in the hope it could possibly help someone else in the future -- would you mind if I brought the PM stuff here as well to consolidate it?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I'd prefer here if you seriously have no objections in the hope it could possibly help someone else in the future -- would you mind if I brought the PM stuff here as well to consolidate it?

Sure. Here's the gist of it (summarized):

MagicalMaster  wrote...

"I can't access the trapped/locked bookcase in the laboratory. Examining it claims I'll be able to do it safely. It can't be disarmed, the pillar next to it apparently has no interaction, and none of the keys work on it."

When you examined the bookcase, the description said "Your talent, however, tells you that you will be able to unlock it safely, and retrieve what is in it with no difficulty." There's no trick to it; just right click on the bookcase, and select
"Unlock" from the radial menu. That will unlock the bookcase and disarm the trap.

MagicalMaster  wrote...

"I don't know how to make the antidote or alchemy set."

You won't get this information until you read the books from the locked bookshelf (Use Unique Power: Self). Be sure to check your journal after reading them; you should find all the detail you need there to complete the poison cure. From a quick read of the rest of your questions, I think all of them will be resolved once you have the books from the bookshelf.

"I believe the only thing "living" in the entire complex is the Undead Wizard who, as far as I can tell, we're NOT supposed to fight (generally it's best to avoid level 20+ wizards at level 7)."

He's there as an extra challenge if you want to try taking him on, but you don't have to. He only appears on the "Very Hard" setting, and he can be defeated with a little strategy and help from some of the more advanced weapons you can find once you've cleared the ruins and possibly the nearby caverns. I'd wait until at least level 8 before trying it, though.

There's a locked door with a trap. I try to open it. I get a message saying that opening the door with the key has disarmed the trap. Then the trap hits me anyway. I'm guessing that's not supposed to happen?"

That's because you're trying to open it (by clicking on it). When you do that in NWN, the trap will be triggered in the
process. I suspect that's why the "unlock" option on the radial menu is there in the first place: so that you can unlock something safely, without necessarily trying to open it and risk triggering any traps that may be on it.

If you click on a locked door or container and it takes a key that you're carrying, then the engine will also try to unlock and open it. But if it's trapped, then the trap will block opening it, and for a container, it will block unlocking it as well. If the trap is persistent (not one-shot), then it will continue to block it until the trap is disarmed. To avoid this complexity, just use unlock from the radial menu; it just tries to trigger the unlock event by itself. If you have the key it will be used, and otherwise you'll try to pick it.

This probably also explains why you were having trouble opening Len's bookcase. I scripted the bookcase to disarm the trap when the unlock event occurred. But if you were clicking on it (trying to open it), rather than unlocking it (by using the radial menu), the trap would block the unlock event. To get past that, use the radial menu.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Quick tip I learned -- when you copy something on these forums, open up Notepad and paste it there.  Then copy it from Notepad and paste it here.  Avoids the line breaks there.  Writing a longer response to the actual stuff mentioned.

Edit: naturally, you've already fixed it by the time I posted.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 13 décembre 2013 - 06:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Quick tip I learned -- when you copy something on these forums, open up Notepad and paste it there.  Then copy it from Notepad and paste it here.  Avoids the line breaks there.  Writing a longer response to the actual stuff mentioned.

Good tip. I'll keep that in mind from now on.

That's as much as I have time for right now, though. I'll try to get back to the forums again by the end of the weekend.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

I tend to agree with your assessment, but I haven't been able to find a way to do what you're suggesting, despite spending a fair amount of time trying. If you know how, please tell me and I'll add it into the next update. '>

I have a few ideas...I was just fiddling with the offensive spellcasting AI for something and I think the healing code was in the same region.

AndarianTD wrote...

I suppose I could have based the check partly on Spellcraft or Use Magical Devices, but I thought that using Lore would be clearer and easier.

Or the highest of the three?  I figured I had magical knowledged covered with Spellcraft, personally.

AndarianTD wrote...

It failed the first time because you took too long between casting and working through to the necessary point in the conversation.

Not what I meant.  I mean that, story-wise, I literally just figured out how to do it...but then I apparently forgot.  I get that Identify faded.  But I figured you'd use a local int or something to mark that I made the first check and thus I could use the item freely.

AndarianTD wrote...

Orion's dialogue tells you that Handol's Journal can help you track the progress of their symptoms. Use it on anyone who is poisoned (Use Unique Power: Target a Companion) to see how many days they have left. Use the fluid on them and try it again. Also, check their stats before and after. The fewer days they have left, the lower their stats will sink; if they have more days left, they won't sink as far.

Ah.  Interesting.  I take it "days" means "rest periods?"  Seems weird that I can simply force it down their throat repeatedly and add multiple days of life in less than a minute, though.

AndarianTD wrote...

There's no trick to it; just right click on the bookcase, and select "Unlock" from the radial menu. That will unlock the bookcase and disarm the trap.

I would argue that is very, very much a trick given the next section.

AndarianTD wrote...

That's because you're trying to open it (by clicking on it). When you do that in NWN, the trap will be triggered in the
process. I suspect that's why the "unlock" option on the radial menu is there in the first place: so that you can unlock something safely, without necessarily trying to open it and risk triggering any traps that may be on it.

I'm not sure if you've ever played a rogue, but that's how you use open lock '>

I can safely say that in every NWN campaign module and PW I have played on I have NEVER once NOT simply left clicked on something to unlock/open it UNLESS I was a rogue using the Open Lock skill.

AndarianTD wrote...

He's there as an extra challenge if you want to try taking him on, but you don't have to. He only appears on the "Very Hard" setting, and he can be defeated with a little strategy and help from some of the more advanced weapons you can find once you've cleared the ruins and possibly the nearby caverns. I'd wait until at least level 8 before trying it, though.

I killed him as soon as the poison was cured -- that was honestly a bigger deal than anything else.

Other stuff not covered yet:

1, those three particular spawn points I mentioned earlier

2, Len's alchemy set refuses to work on some herbs for some reason.  Poison cure plant?  Use the alchemy set on it.  Another poison cure plant?  Use the alchemy set on it.  Another poison cure plant?  Nope, won't work.  Hmm.  How about...this medicinal herb?  Sure, alchemy set works.  How about this other medicinal herb?  Nope, won't work.  I *think* might have only worked on herbs I found in the lab itself or something but I'm not sure.

3, the dying system seems a bit buggy.  I'm still not sure how it works -- and I've literally had situations where I "died," a companion healed me, I got up, and then I died again.  I've also had situations where a henchmen went down, got up, went down, got up...this repeated like five times and I was awarded 29 XP each time for killing him.

4, the beastmen only accepted one changed ownbear eggs, leaving me with two more modified eggs.

5. something seems very messed up with the persuade.  I was level 8 and had 12 persuade.  Orion was level 7 and had 11 persuade.  Yet he made every persuade check and I failed every one (during the delaying tactic, for example).  I had both more raw persuade and equal level based persuade.  What was the deal with that?

6, there was at least one other thing I can't recall at the moment and will have to try to remember later

7, I hate you for making me stay up way, way too late finishing the module.  It's a form of loathing, really.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               A few more points for now:

MagicalMaster wrote...

I mean that, story-wise, I literally just figured out how to do it... but then I apparently forgot.

But you didn't "just figure out how to do it." As with any other skill usage, the "figuring out" happens when you actually try to perform the task. All the dialogue is doing is telling you is that given your current skill level, that you can figure it out, when you make the attempt.

I get that Identify faded.  But I figured you'd use a local int or something to mark that I made the first check and thus I could use the item freely.

I'm not sure I understand why you would expect it to would work differently from any other skill use. If you want to identify an item or pick a lock or disarm a trap, for example, then you need the skill boost to be active at the time that you attempt the task. The same applies here.

I take it "days" means "rest periods?"

No, it actually means "days" in this case. The only thing in the module that I can think of offhand that's dependent on "rest periods" is how long food takes to spoil.

Seems weird that I can simply force it down their throat repeatedly and add multiple days of life in less than a minute, though.

Again, I don't see why. Leaving that aside, though, it's mainly a gameplay convenience to the player. The alternative would have been to force you to keep track of their status more or less constantly, and when to keep dosing them. This way, you can give them a few belts of the fluid if you want, and then play uninterrupted for a while and come back to check on their status later.

Len's alchemy set refuses to work on some herbs for some reason.  Poison cure plant?  Use the alchemy set on it.  Another poison cure plant?  Use the alchemy set on it.  Another poison cure plant?  Nope, won't work.  Hmm.  How about...this medicinal herb?  Sure, alchemy set works.  How about this other medicinal herb?  Nope, won't work.  I *think* might have only worked on herbs I found in the lab itself or something but I'm not sure.

That's not right. Did you read the description on Len's Alchemy Set?

"This is Len's Alchemy Set. It is obviously designed for a special preparatory process, but only a limited amount of the preparatory elements remain [emphasis added]...

Use Unique Power Self: Examine the set to determine whether you know how to use it, and if so what items you can still prepare [emphasis added]. (NOTE: This information will appear in the message window.)

If you do this, it tells you exactly how much of the preparatory elements remain in the set -- that is, how many more times you can still use it on each type of medicinal plant. For example:

Remaining preparatory elements:
  Prepare Poison Cure: 2
  Prepare Healing: 0
  Prepare Restoration: 1

the beastmen only accepted one changed ownbear eggs, leaving me with two more modified eggs.

Interesting catch -- thanks! I've never heard that one before. Thinking about it, it would have to have happened because you placed the eggs in the chamber for transformation one at a time, then, rather than all at once as expected. The chamber only creates one set of transfigured eggs regardless of how many owlbear eggs you put in; it just adjusts the amount of XP you get. I'll check the scripting there and make sure it handles that situation in the next update.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 14 décembre 2013 - 06:23 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               I remembered one of the things I had forgotten, at least...

When you ask a companion what they think of you, you get a X out of Y indication.  Is that all of the possibilities within the module or the total scale for them for all modules combined?  I think I ended with 10/14 for Robin, for example -- does that mean I missed things or that I'm about 75% of the way to the maximum "approval" or whatever for her?

Also, regarding the Lore check...the idea of only having a few points in a skill is pretty anathema to most people -- you either fully invest in lore (or another skill) or you don't bother.  So if you have a DC of 20 and expect everyone to have 4 base ranks...why not just make the DC 16?

AndarianTD wrote...

But you didn't "just figure out how to do it." As with any other skill usage, the "figuring out" happens when you actually try to perform the task. All the dialogue is doing is telling you is that given your current skill level, that you can figure it out, when you make the attempt.

Exact words are " And you sense and understand the gem's magic well enough to use it."  That's different from "You suspect you'll be able to figure out exactly how to use the gem when you try."

AndarianTD wrote...

No, it actually means "days" in this case. The only thing in the module that I can think of offhand that's dependent on "rest periods" is how long food takes to spoil.

So 48 minutes per day at 2 minute per hour?

AndarianTD wrote...

Again, I don't see why. Leaving that aside, though, it's mainly a gameplay convenience to the player. The alternative would have been to force you to keep track of their status more or less constantly, and when to keep dosing them.

Because he says "No, the monster had a gland that secreted a potion that delayed the poison's effects. It was a vile fluid that it made me drink daily when I got close to dying."  Made me think the presence of the fluid in a person would minimize the impact of the poison while active -- and thus "stacking" it all at once would not help.  There's a reason that if you're sick with something you take medicine every day or every few hours versus all at once.

In this particular case, given that I thought "days" meant "rests," I thought it was something you needed to apply each time you rested.

AndarianTD wrote...

That's not right. Did you read the description on Len's Alchemy Set?

If you do this, it tells you exactly how much of the preparatory elements remain in the set -- that is, how many more times you can still use it on each type of medicinal plant.

I did read it, but I thought the message it mentioned was saying whether I could use it or not and the charges on the alchemy set indicated how many uses it had.  What is the point of the 4 charges on the set, then?

AndarianTD wrote...

Interesting catch -- thanks! I've never heard that one before. Thinking about it, it would have to have happened because you placed the eggs in the chamber for transformation one at a time, then, rather than all at once as expected.

Well, I quite literally didn't want to put all of my eggs in one basket.  For all I knew there was only a 50% chance of it working (or possibly I still had to do something else entirely) so I didn't want to risk all of the eggs at once -- wanted to make sure it actually worked first.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 15 décembre 2013 - 01:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

When you ask a companion what they think of you, you get a X out of Y indication.  Is that all of the possibilities within the module or the total scale for them for all modules combined? I think I ended with 10/14 for Robin, for example -- does that mean I missed things or that I'm about 75% of the way to the maximum "approval"
or whatever for her?

It's within the module. You'll see the new, higher maximums when you start Chapter 2. So while it does mean that you "missed some things," not all of them are obvious or within your control. Some are based on Charisma checks, for example, that your character may or not make. Also there are more than 14 points worth of increases available for Robin, but the total is capped at 14. The details are listed in the hint file, if you want to see what they were. "Maxing out" the relationship is satisfying, but fortunately, not necessary. Ending Chapter 1 with a final score of 10 or higher is considered a successful romance, and enough to get Robin to start falling in love with you in Chapter 2.

Also, regarding the Lore check...the idea of only having a few points in a skill is pretty anathema to most people -- you either fully invest in lore (or another skill) or you don't bother.  So if you have a DC of 20 and expect everyone to have 4 base ranks...why not just make the DC 16?

I tried to design Sanctum to provide a module experience that was a bit "outside the box," and that doesn't necessarily adhere to stereotypical NWN gameplay patterns. It's something I try to warn the player about in the README file: 

Don't assume that gameplay patterns that are common in other modules will necessarily apply.

The utility of a moderate amount of a more broadly distributed selection of skills was a key aspect of this that I deliberately designed into the module. It's also why I added a section to the README with advice on skill selection that included some non-maxed ranges. Sanctum is heavily scripted and very skill-focused, with a lot of checks going on, sometimes affecting gameplay under the covers where you may not see them.

So the module design is actually intended to encourage and reward a bit more of a skill "dabbling" approach than is typical for NWN, even when this may be cross-class for your character (which in my experience is even more anathema to most players). To list a few examples:

• The amount of XP you get from reading books is scripted to depend on your Lore;
• Having even a single rank in Spellcraft (even if it's taken cross-class) has a significant influence on gem handling and helps with using Len's Alchemy set;
• Having even a single rank in Open Locks (again, even if it's taken cross-class) facilitates handling a few very difficult locks (e.g. the safe), since it gives you the ability to use some (strategically placed) high-value lockpicks.

None of these are show-stoppers if you don't have the requisite skills. But the advantages are there if you do.

Exact words are " And you sense and understand the gem's magic well enough to use it."  That's different from "You suspect you'll be able to figure out exactly how to use the gem when you try."

I don't think that's inconsistent with the idea that the requisite understanding and ability to sense the gem's magic will fade when the skill boost ends, though.

So 48 minutes per day at 2 minute per hour?

I don't think I changed the default clock-to-game time settings, so yes, that sounds about right.

Because he says "No, the monster had a gland that secreted a potion that delayed the poison's effects. It was a vile fluid that it made me drink daily when I got close to dying."  Made me think the presence of the fluid in a person would minimize the impact of the poison while active -- and thus "stacking" it all at once would not help.  There's a reason that if you're sick with something you take medicine every day or every few hours versus all at once.

Yes, I can see why Orion's remarks might give that impression. I don't think I should change the stacking, but do you have any advice on how I might clarify how it works that wouldn't come across as too jarringly OOC?

What is the point of the 4 charges on the set, then?

That's just a left-over from my initial attempt to use the "standard" NWN charges functionality to implement the Alchemy Set's features. It really didn't work right, given that I wanted to have multiple types and numbers of uses, and I ended up having to completely script the functionality without it. If you found it confusing, then I'll see if I can remove it in the next update.

Well, I quite literally didn't want to put all of my eggs in one basket.  For all I knew there was only a 50% chance of it working (or possibly I still had to do something else entirely) so I didn't want to risk all of the eggs at once -- wanted to make sure it actually worked first.

Yep -- in hindsight, that makes perfect sense. It's an easy fix; I just need to adjust the Beastman's script that takes the eggs to handle multiple instances.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 18 décembre 2013 - 03:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

Some are based on Charisma checks, for example, that your character may or not make.

Well, I was a sorcerer with 18 starting Charisma so I am *reasonably* sure I made all of those.

AndarianTD wrote...

Also there are more than 14 points worth of increases available for Robin, but the total is capped at 14. The details are listed in the hint file, if you want to see what they were. "Maxing out" the relationship is satisfying, but fortunately, not necessary. Ending Chapter 1 with a final score of 10 or higher is considered a successful romance, and enough to get Robin to start falling in love with you in Chapter 2.

Looks like the number is 15 according to the spoilers, so not exactly much of a difference.  Wound up with 11, though, went back and checked the save.

AndarianTD wrote...

I tried to design Sanctum to provide a module experience that was a bit "outside the box," and that doesn't necessarily adhere to stereotypical NWN gameplay patterns. It's something I try to warn the player about in the README file:

Don't assume that gameplay patterns that are common in other modules will necessarily apply.

That's not a gameplay pattern, though -- that's character building.  Gameplay pattern is whether looting everything you see has negative effects or whether slaughtering innocent civilians gets you in trouble or whether you can rest whenever you'd like without consquence or whether infinite healing potions are available or whether you need to loot everything you can as soon as possible or risk losing it or and so on.  It's something that changes what you DO rather than how you build your character.

Whereas with skills, if I discover that I'm expected to have something (which often still isn't clear -- I don't recall anything saying how the DC was 20 for the Soul Gem in-game) I have to either use console commands or wait until I level to try to change something -- and what if I'm a 16 wis/12 int/14 cha half-elf cleric?  I only get three points per level, meaning that if I continue to max at Heal (which turned out to be incorrect information, I ignored Heal and was perfectly fine) and Persuade (as is basically recommended) that I'd have to wait two levels to be able to put a cross-class rank in Open Lock (and sacrifice Spellcraft/Concentration/Tumble to do so).  You can't just "play differently" to "fix" it.

AndarianTD wrote...

The utility of a moderate amount of a more broadly distributed selection of skills was a key aspect of this that I deliberately designed into the module. It's also why I added a section to the README with advice on skill selection that included some non-maxed ranges. Sanctum is heavily scripted and very skill-focused, with a lot of checks going on, sometimes affecting gameplay under the covers where you may not see them.

So why I was I failing so many persuade checks despite maxing Persuade and having equivalent to level + 3 + 1 skill (cross-class)?  Why was I failing crystal checks versus maxed Spellcraft?  I mean, you're simultaneously saying "Hey guys, it's a good idea to spread out your skill points among a bunch of different skills" AND saying "Hey guys, you really need to max out skills or you're hosed."  It's contradictory and not consistent.

I mean, the ReadMe says "decent Persuade skill" -- but even effectively MAXED persuade was failing.  What do you expect people to make of these mixed messages in terms of mechanics?

AndarianTD wrote...

I don't think that's inconsistent with the idea that the requisite understanding and ability to sense the gem's magic will fade when the skill boost ends, though.

Maybe because "it's magic."  In reality, though, it feels like seeing an unassembled piece of furniture without instructions and being unable to figure it out.  Then you get an intelligence boost and realize how they fit together.  Then the boost wears off and you forget what you just figured out...which makes little sense.  It is much, much easier to remember something you've already figured out than learn it for the first time.

AndarianTD wrote...

I don't think I changed the default clock-to-game time settings, so yes, that sounds about right.

While I was perusing the spoilers file, it mentioned resting advances the clock eight hours.  Is that the case?

AndarianTD wrote...

Yes, I can see why Orion's remarks might give that impression. I don't think I should change the stacking, but do you have any advice on how I might clarify how it works that wouldn't come across as too jarringly OOC?

Well, upon hearing your explanation and reading the spoilers, it seems to be the best choice is to immediately split all of the doses in a way that gives everyone an equal length of time to live (or prioritize a certain companion if their stats are more important than yours as the PC).

Are you comfortable with the optimal solution being to immediately use all of the fluid as soon as you find Orion and know its use?

AndarianTD wrote...

That's just a left-over from my initial attempt to use the "standard" NWN charges functionality to implement the Alchemy Set's features. It really didn't work right, given that I wanted to have multiple types and numbers of uses, and I ended up having to completely script the functionality without it. If you found it confusing, then I'll see if I can remove it in the next update.

I definitely did -- the only thing I was looking for in the message was "Can I use it or not?" and I was looking at the charges for uses.  Especially since everything else in the module works in such a way.

New point: I found one bluesteel bar (from the trapped forge) but apparently there were three?  How big of a deal is that -- trying to figure out whether I should use console commands to go back and pick up the other two.

Also remaining from earlier...

1, those three particular spawn points I mentioned earlier

3, the dying system seems a bit buggy.  I'm still not sure how it works -- and I've literally had situations where I "died," a companion healed me, I got up, and then I died again.  I've also had situations where a henchmen went down, got up, went down, got up...this repeated like five times and I was awarded 29 XP each time for killing him (while using the companion healing kit on them).

5. something seems very messed up with the persuade.  I was level 8 and had 12 persuade.  Orion was level 7 and had 11 persuade.  Yet he made every persuade check and I failed every one (during the delaying tactic, for example).  I had both more raw persuade and equal level based persuade. What was the deal with that?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 19 décembre 2013 - 04:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               A couple of quick comments:

MagicalMaster wrote...

That's not a gameplay pattern, though -- that's character building... [a gameplay pattern is] something that changes what you DO rather than how you build your character.

I don't think I agree that this is a particularly meaningful distinction. Character building is an integral aspect of how you play a game, and very much something that you "do" throughout the course of play. This is especially the case when you're leveling up periodically (typically eight times in Sanctum 1). In any event when I write about "gameplay patterns," I'm referring to every aspect of playing the game and not exempting character building from it.

Whereas with skills, if I discover that I'm expected to have something (which often still isn't clear -- I don't recall anything saying how the DC was 20 for the Soul Gem in-game) I have to either use console commands or wait until I level to try to change something -- and what if I'm a 16 wis/12 int/14 cha half-elf cleric?

Consider your own character, who by your description had an un-adjusted talent rating of 6. The intention was for you to use the Adventurer's Guide (a plot item that you should be carrying) to cover most of the required skill check. The Legend Lore power will give you +12, and the guide has an additional +2 when you hold it, for a total of +14. That's over 2/3 of the DC 20 right there. Add your character's +6 talent score and you already had the check made, without any other considerations, even if your character had taken zero ranks in Lore. The same applies to your 16 wis/12 int/14 cha half-elf cleric. And that doesn't factor in anything else, such as how mind-enhancing magics can be used to boost your talent (which I tell you about in your journal), and how bonuses from intelligence actually double-count: int bonuses boost your Lore skill and your talent rating at the same time, so drinking a simple Fox's Cunning potion by itself will give you another +4 on the check. That's why there are potions of both Fox's Cunning and Owl's Wisdom right there in Orion's equipment pile when you find him. Just using the Adventurer's Guide (+14) and drinking those two potions (+4 and +2) will make the check even for a player with Lore and talent ratings of zero (10s across the board in Int, Wis, and Cha). And that doesn't count other options, such as having Robin cast Eagle's Splendor (which she has it in her spell list) for another +2, or use her Bard Song for another +1.

So the risk of failing the check is actually minimal for anyone who uses the items and options they have available, and builds a character with a reasonable set of mental abilities. That's basically the puzzle: make a list of all your talent and Lore boosting options, and keep using them until you can make the check (which Orion's dialogue and the gem's Use Unique Power: Self ability will allow you to test). While taking a few ranks of Lore helps provide a buffer for missing some of these or for characters with unusually low mental scores, and it is useful for role-playing the module in general, strictly speaking it isn't mandatory. There are also items available in the random treasure list and for sale in the Earthen City that I put there partly as a hedge against those rare but extreme cases where all of these considerations might somehow fail to be enough (along with a dialogue line in a conversation with Robin suggesting that you go to the Earthen City to look for something that might help).

EDIT: It looks like I accidentally deleted the Ring of Insight from the Earthen City when I added it to the random treasure system in v4.0. I didn't intend that and I'll add it back in v4.2. There are still other items there for boosting Int and Wisdom, though, as well as several additional items in the random treasure system that would help.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 20 décembre 2013 - 12:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

AndarianTD wrote...

I don't think I agree that this is a particularly meaningful distinction. Character building is an integral aspect of how you play a game, and very much something that you "do" throughout the course of play.

You don't see a difference between "There's a lot of dragons with
powerful fire breaths, so you'll need to buy fire immunity and
resistance gear to survive" and "There's a lot of dragons with powerful
fire breaths, so you'll need to have Improved Evasion or 10 levels of
RDD to survive?"

AndarianTD wrote...

Just using the Adventurer's Guide (+14) and drinking those two potions (+4 and +2) will make the check even for a player with Lore and talent ratings of zero (10s across the board in Int, Wis, and Cha)

Fair enough.  In which case why say "Minimum Recommended Ranks of Lore: 4" if it actually winds up not being required given the calculations you made?  The section in general (especially the last sentence) makes it sound like having ranks in lore is required to play the module.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

You don't see a difference between "There's a lot of dragons with powerful fire breaths, so you'll need to buy fire immunity and resistance gear to survive" and "There's a lot of dragons with powerful fire breaths, so you'll need to have Improved Evasion or 10 levels of RDD to survive?"'

I see a difference, but I don't see it as an especially important one when one is talking about gameplay as a whole (which I was). What would you propose as an alternative way of expressing the idea that I was trying to get across?

Fair enough.  In which case why say "Minimum Recommended Ranks of Lore: 4" if it actually winds up not being required given the calculations you made?  The section in general (especially the last sentence) makes it sound like having ranks in lore is required to play the module.

That could probably use some re-wording. The need for Lore ranks was greater in earlier versions of the module before I toned it down a bit, but it looks like I didn't update that section of the README. It's still a good idea to take a few ranks in Lore if you can for the reasons I described, since it's useful throughout the module and makes handling the situation with Orion easier. Strictly speaking it's true that "there is one situation in which a high Lore rating will be crucial to continuing the game," but it's not quite as dependent on having those base ranks in Lore as I make it sound there.