Author Topic: How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?  (Read 1070 times)

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« on: August 21, 2014, 03:13:39 am »


               

   Hello,


in the First Chapter of the Official Campaign the weapon Foundation Light Flail +1 can be maked by the smith Marrok.


 


Analoguely in the Third Chapter the smith Barun Silverblade can make the similar weapon Foundation Light Flail +4.


 


Both the Light Flails have the special property that is described as "If hit, Knock DC-14": what is it exactly and how should it be used ?


 


Regard to this:


  1. Does "hit" mean the hit received by the enemy, or by a door/chest to open ?

  2.    
  3. Does "Knock" mean the Knock spell, that e.g. the Mage casters have ?

 


Greetings and Thanks

Massimo


 


 


 


 



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 06:29:43 am »


               

I have this sorted out now.  It works differently than other OnHit props I've used.


 


It is indeed a bash that does damage that triggers the Knock but only if the lock DC of the chest being bashed is less than or equal to the OnHit DC, which is 14 for Foundation.  If the hardness is too great, it cannot be damaged (haven't tested it with an additional elemental OnHit but usually elemental damage overrides the hardness).  There is an exploit, however.  If a chest or door with Lock DC </=14 is bashed and damaged, it will trigger the Knock spell and unlock all locked non-plot objects within range regardless of what their Lock DC is.


 


The main problem that I see is that most default chests (haven't check door lock DCs) have a DC of at least 18 which would prevent the Knock effect.  But I suppose you could just keep bashing until you find an easy one. Seems sort of a wasted property to me since, if you can damage it, you can destroy it and retrieve the contents without triggering the Knock effect.


 


Apologies if you read this before all testing had been completed.  Hope it helps... finally!


- - - - - - - - - - - -


Original response (editted):


 


There is no OnHit for placeables.  wrong! You use bash (or cast a spell to damage them).


 


But you have it right.  Each time you achieve a successful hit on a creature using the Foundation flail, the Knock spell will open all locked doors and chests in the vicinity (if they are not flagged as plot).  wrong! The only difference between the versions is the enhancement bonus. The DC is the same for each.


 


edit:  I think it's a bugged property.  wrong! Tested vs. several spawns of mixed enemies with 10 locked non-plot chests within the encounter range (Knock is supposed to colossal range) and never got one Knock attempt registered on the log.  Made sure Silence was not cast, just in case (some were clerics).doesn't work that way!  You may have more luck but the DC is meaningless since Knock provides no save anywaywrong! The only benefit for the flail other than the OnHit is that it is one of the few melee weapons in the OC that possesses better than +3 enhancement.  


 


(Perhaps one of the community's vets could track down the script to figure out what is happening with the OnHit trigger?)   Solved.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 01:41:36 am »


               

   Hello,


well, I had also tried to hit enemies by the Foundation Light Flail +1 in OC First Chapter and indeed I also had got no effect, but I do not remember the area where I did it: however, could you say to me where you have tried it so I could do it in other areas ?


 


Now I am currently at OC Third Chapter and I could try in the neighbours of Fort Ilkard, in the Mountain Orchish base or the Giants base, that is the last remaining areas.


 


 


Greetings


Massimo


               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 05:21:04 am »


               

I set up my own testing module that uses all the v1.69 resources so it's dependable.Running around the OC trying this and that is just not expedient when searching for some empirical information.


 


In this case, I placed a few dozen random locked chests in a close group and spawned several mixed encounters nearby to battle and never got a single Knock spell register even though i was hitting them a lot. Then I changed each chest to custom Lock DCs from about 5 to 40 and hardness varying from 5 to 40 also and removed the encounters altogether.  I wasn't sure if a dice roll was part of the opposed check or not so made some outside the 20 roll.


 


The results show that a bash that does damage will trigger the OnHit spell if the Lock DC is equal to or less than the OnHit DC. So if you get that floaty text that says weapon is ineffective, buff the weapon with Flame Weapon or Darkfire and give it another shot (you'd need to either be an arcanist or cleric to try that though, don't recall that the OC has scrolls like that for UMD users).  


 


It's just an unusual opposed check where no dice are rolled.  Just one DC versus another, the OnHit Knock of 14 versus the Lock DC of container or door.


 


I've found no default (the DC value that appears when you first select an object's status to "Locked") Lock DCs on chests or doors lower than 15.  So, unless the designers of the OC customized a few Lock DCs to be set lower than 15, the Foundation will never unlock anything.  I'm guessing they have, but the question is: WHERE are they?  Most chests and doors are set to a default of at least 18 when status is set to locked.


 


It's really not a very good weapon until you get Barun's version when the enhancement goes up to +4 which will cut through some damage reduction like some dragons and elementals have and get a good AB boost.  But the DC stays the same, unfortunately.  Too bad they didn't increase it just a tad in the improved version. All the other OnHit effects on the specialty weapons are DCs versus some sort of save with the dice roll.  Oh well.  What more can I say?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 04:36:08 pm »


               

As HipMaestro's posts mention, hitting creatures does not trigger the knock effect. Hitting (bashing) placeables triggers the effect if the placeable 1. is a container or door; 2. takes physical damage from the hit, after accounting for its hardness; and 3. has an open lock DC no higher than the DC given for the on-hit knock property.


 


One aspect that may deserve emphasis is point 2, the damage requirement. The knock will never trigger for placeable marked as plot. Additionally, only physical (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) damage that penetrates the placeable's hardness triggers the knock effect. So, bonus damage that does, say, acid damage won't work and On-hit: Cast Spell effects (like Flame Weapon or Darkfire) won't work. (As usual, those latter aren't really considered as weapon damage by the game at all. They are like fast little spells that the character has cast as the target was hit and they do separate damage, as one sees in the log.)


 


Really, though the item isn't technically bugged, its value is very limited because Bioware makes item properties with high DCs very expensive (and the DCs only go up to 26). That really isn't appropriate for this property, which needs a high DC to be effective against even moderately tough locks. A +1 weapon with the on-hit knock property that triggers on locks of open lock DC 26 or lower (the highest it can do) would have a base value around 70,000 gp, whereas simply giving that same +1 weapon a cast spell: knock property with unlimited uses per day would ring in at under 30,000 gp.


 


The way to get some use out of the Foundation flails that is occasionally applicable in the OCs is to bash a nearby container or door that has a low enough open lock DC. Not that many areas (or modules, that I have noticed) have many containers and doors with open lock DCs of 14 or less, hardly a surprise since a toon with even 1 point in the open lock skill could open all such locks..



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 05:57:42 pm »


               


 


 


The way to get some use out of the Foundation flails that is occasionally applicable in the OCs is to bash a nearby container or door that has a low enough open lock DC. Not that many areas (or modules, that I have noticed) have many containers and doors with open lock DCs of 14 or less, hardly a surprise since a toon with even 1 point in the open lock skill could open all such locks..




 


As I was trying to solve the mechanics riddle, I began to speculate as to what Bioware SHOULD have done to have had this weapon a better value than just another +1 flail. But it isn't easy to use the property effectively in a general environment.  You already mentioned the valuation issue, but you wouldn't want to change the DC since the OnHit DCs of all the rest of the special forge items are 14.  (There is something to be gained with challenge consistency IMO.)  And you would want only occasional use of the spell to benefit the user; not be able to unlock most non-plot objects in the module.  


 


I think the only practical means would be to simply randomly reset some of the existing locked chests and doors to 14, making sure that those locked objects that might challenge a lock picker (or basher) are not within range of the spell's effects.  I would intentionally make the hardness of those candidate objects a bit more difficult to pierce to give the property some "legs"... figure out how to cause more physical damage (like any potion or item that increases STR) and your chances of a successful trigger go up. Critical hits can further muddy the waters, though.  You could bash the same hard object a dozen times getting "weapon ineffective" and then *poof*, a critical hit cycles through and the tough object is damaged or destroyed.  Can't think of any other alternatives to make this particular OnHit property balanced in game play, though.  ':unsure:' 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 07:37:41 pm »


               

Hello,


well, I thank all for the solutions provided so to have a clear idea about the Foundation Light Flails. I supposed just some of them.


 


Now I also inform you that the Foundation Light Flail +4 should require level 15 for the playing character, as I have noted from my last time I played Neverwinter Nights; and since at least in the patches v. 1.68 or 1.69 this level is reached at ending of Third Chapter, this Light Flail could seem unlikely useful.


 


 


Greetings


Massimo



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 10:33:42 pm »


               


Now I also inform you that the Foundation Light Flail +4 should require level 15 for the playing character, as I have noted from my last time I played Neverwinter Nights; and since at least in the patches v. 1.68 or 1.69 this level is reached at ending of Third Chapter, this Light Flail could seem unlikely useful.




 


That's not true...  not with v1.69 anyway. I just tested it with a level 10 fighter and had no issues.  I'm betting that there are no level restrictions at all in the forging of special items as many players do it just to sell them and make gold.  It also doesn't matter if you have proficiency in the weapon type or not.  If you have the ironwood and 25k gold, the +4 version is yours for the taking.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 10:54:37 pm »


               

   Hello,


I have retried in this moment with level 13 Cleric character to create the Foundation Light Flail +4 to check the requirements and in effects in its properties there is not written something about level 15 restriction.


 


But last time, with patch 1.68 probably, with a lower level Wizard character I remember the level 15 requirement for this Light Flail appeared indeed in its properties as similarly as for the Drone Morning Star +4 that required level 18: so that time I had not tried these weapons.


 


Perhaps some could be different in the patch 1.69 ...


 


Ok.


 


 


Greetings and Thanks


Massimo



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 11:30:13 pm »


               


  


Perhaps some could be different in the patch 1.69 ...


 


 




 


Nobody uses anything but v1.69 for several years now unless they were stuck with a foreign language version.  But even those can be patched to v1.69 now by installing a special tlk file.  I couldn't tell you anything about versions before v1.69.  I think I played with v1.68 for a total of 2 weeks until I had a problem with FPS in one of the expansions so updated and fixed everything nicely.  There's really no way for the community to give advice about earlier versions anymore.


 


Be sure to apply the Critical Rebuild patch for your version. GoG's Diamond version should be patched with that rebuild as well just to be safe. That way all your bases will be covered.


 


This topic lists all the Critical Rebuilds for different versions ----> http://forum.bioware...nks-for-all-os/


 


If you have any trouble DL from the BioWare site (should still be working okay, I think), neverwintervault.org has all the files on hand as well.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 12:03:08 am »


               


But last time, with patch 1.68 probably, with a lower level Wizard character I remember the level 15 requirement for this Light Flail appeared indeed in its properties as similarly as for the Drone Morning Star +4 that required level 18: so that time I had not tried these weapons.




I'm guessing you enabled item level restrictions, which is an attempt by the game to prevent you from equipping items too powerful for your level.


 


...however, the game is horrible at judging the actual power of an item and the item level restriction is thus a really stupid thing to enable.  It'll let you use horrendously overpowered items at low level and prevent you from using weak items until much higher levels.  Don't turn it on.


 


In general, just use the Foundation +4 as a +4 weapon...just forget the knock property.


 


Of course, there's no good reason to use a Light Flail in the first place, so...just use something else.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 12:49:31 pm »


               

   Hello,


well, tested again now with the said Wizard character from a savegame last time I used dated year 2008 (then was with patch v. 1.68) and the Foundation Light Flail +4 reports indeed no level requirement, but currently I am using patch v. 1.69.


 


Then I suppose patch v.1.69 has no requirements instead of v. patch 1.68 that time I remember it required level 15 for the Foundation Light Flail +4 as well as some other weapons like e.g. the Drone Morning Star +4 that required level 18. This is in a my note along other many other ones in a file about a Neverwinter Nights walkthrough.


 


 


Greetings


Massimo


               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 01:21:50 pm »


               

&nbsp;



Maxim30, on 25 Aug 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Then I suppose patch v.1.69 has no requirements instead of v. patch 1.68 that time I remember it required level 15 for the Foundation Light Flail +4 as well as some other weapons like e.g. the Drone Morning Star +4 that required level 18.&nbsp;



Unless Bioware changed the default for SP item restrictions in the nwnplayer.ini during one of the patches, the version shouldn't matter. There may have been a choice about this during installation but TBH I can't remember that far back. The only other way it could have gotten changed is if you changed it yourself at some point (or whoever installed the game). I always thought the default installation set it at Single Player ItemLevelRestrictions=0.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 06:33:02 pm »


               

I hadn't heard about the item level restriction changing either, though I can't be sure that it didn't. A while back, there was a discussion where it was mentioned that the OC was initially likely to get the PC to or close to level 20 by the end. It's possible ILR was enabled by default at that point in the OC's development, since PCs were hitting higher levels and it wouldn't cause as many problems.


 


At any rate, I agree that it's best to have ILR turned off. See the ILR entry in the NWN Wiki for more details.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Massimo

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How should be the weapon Foundation Light Flail used ?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 07:17:48 pm »


               

   Hello,


in effects in the "nwnplayer.ini" file there is Single Player ItemLevelRestrictions=0.


 


And I still keep a copy of that file as it was at the single player new installation. It seems to have inside only the following lines:


 


[Server Options]

MaxCharLevel=40

One Party Only=1

[Game Options]

Client CPU Affinity=0

Single Player ItemLevelRestrictions=0

Single Player Enforce Legal Characters=0


 


Could it be the reason ?


 


 


Greetings and Thanks


Massimo