Author Topic: Rogue Development for OC  (Read 975 times)

Legacy_PracticalKat

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Rogue Development for OC
« on: March 03, 2013, 07:35:57 pm »


               I mentioned in Rogue build in my earlier thread about Linu's armour (she's got the Whitebone).  I'm at Rogue 8, about to take the final component to Aribeth.
My stats are:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Ch 14
Wis 8

I've taken the following feats:
1 Dodge 
3 Weapon Finesse 
6 Unsure?? Thought I took Point Blank Shot but it isn't there??

I'm unsure whether to go Rogue 8 / Wiz 8 or take the Arcane Archer route (looked at the Resourceful Archer build)?  The idea of archery is attractive, but I'm not sure how powerful the AA is within the OC?

I also like the idea of Shadowdancer and HIPS, but I don't have a clear idea of where I would take the build.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Brendon
               
               

               


                     Modifié par brendonwp, 03 mars 2013 - 07:52 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 09:07:13 pm »


               Are those your current ability levels without equipment?  Doesn't seem to make sense with only 2 ability bumps since creation.

You should prolly decide your focus soon.  If archery, then begin to figure on some of the consequences.
First, PBS may help your AB while within melee range, but you'll be getting nailed by AoOs like crazy if flanked.  IMO, with Weapon Finesse already in your repertoire, shield prof would help a lot for the melee switch, gaining both AC and AoO avoidance.  You can either take shield prof as a general feat as rogue or MC to a class that gets it automatically, like fighter.  The only discalimer is that you will not be able to use rapier with the shield as halfling but could go shortie or dagger with it (you need some finessable 1H weapon).

IMO 8 levels in rogue is too late to screw around with a caster MC.  First, you've missed your chance to build some casting power by using the rogue levels only as skill dumps early.  Second, at best, if you took all the rest wizard levels (probably 10, rather than 8 as you described), still, your durations and spell proficiency would be weak with at most level 5 spells and extending only up to level 4 spells.  I'd pass.  I played a Wiz17/Rog 1 recently with a single dump at level 7 or 8 (can't recall atm) who had plenty of UMD and trap proficiency plus that extra +2 tumble AC didn't hurt.  The damage shields were excellent and devastating (it was a high CON gnome, btw) and the polymorphs like Tenser's, Umber Hulk & Iron Golem were unstoppable in melee and difficult to dispel.  Diluted by lots of rogue levels would have gimped it badly.

For AA in the OC, I would recommend a high BAB class like fighter or ranger... perhaps like Ftr ( or Rgr) 6/Arcane 1/AA 12... along those lines.  With rogue, it will take at least rog 8/arcane 1/AA 9 and probably more rogue levels than that to get in all the AA prereqs since you didn't plan the feats up front.  Probably not worth the fumbling around.  Ftr, instead, will get you all the prereq feat in just 4 levels plus WS:longbow and even EWS:longbow later if dumped for discipline (yeah, I know it's DEX focus, but some Disc is better than none when in melee).  But that whole plan would be for another toon, IMO.

IMO cleric/rogue is awesome and not too late to implement.  A self-buffed sneaker with Trickery & War?  Pretty nasty. '<img'> With Linu in tow, it may seem redundant but she will not buff you with her chief divine buffs (Div Fav, Div Pow, Prayer, Battetide, etc.).  She's better just as a pure healer TBH. Anyway.... something to think about.... perhaps for a future excursion.

One thing for sure, though... all bumps to DEX from here on out.

edit: btw... you can use the console to delevel/relevel if you go *oops* and decide to change things around a bit. IMO it's not a cheat, especially for a learning campaign, just save time having to recreate and replay the whole blasted boring thing over again. Your decision.  Record you XP on paper if you decide to go that route just to make sure you arrive at status quo again.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 03 mars 2013 - 09:18 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Rogue Development for OC
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 09:16:30 pm »


               

edit: btw... you can use the console to delevel/relevel if you go *oops* and decide to change things around a bit


To expand briefly:

1. Write down your current XP (call it x)
2. Hit enter (or click in the chat box) and type    ##DebugMode 1
3. Hit enter (or click in the chat box) and type    ##dm_giveXP -x      (note the negative sign)
4. Hit enter (or click in the chat box) and type   ##dm_giveXP x    (no negative sign)
5. Hit enter (or click in the chat box) and type     ##DebugMode 0

Doing that will delevel and relevel you to exactly where you are.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Empyre65

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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 11:32:51 pm »


               At this point, I'd mix in 4 levels of Fighter for more feats, including Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. and Blind Fight, but don't take the Fighter levels all in a row, or your Rogue sklills would get out-of-date. If you are Human (any class as favored class), Half-Elf (same), Halfling (Rogue as favored class), or Dwarf (Fighter as favored class), you won't get an EXP penalty with that combination.

Arcane Archer is only possible with an Elf or Half-Elf.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 01:15:02 am »


               

Empyre65 wrote...
Arcane Archer is only possible with an Elf or Half-Elf.

Ho cheese!  Of course!  Blasted elven AA constraint squashes that idea flat for a hin, eh?

Many eyes is the best medicine especially when one pair belongs to Empyre! '<img'>  65? Odd.  He doesn't look it!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_PracticalKat

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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 06:24:26 am »


               @HM - Thanks for the detailed reply!  Yes, these were starting stats, so naked my elf has (at Level 8):
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 16
Ch 14
Wis 8

I've taken the following feats:
1 Dodge
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Point Blank Shot (my eyes must be going!)

I'm going to try and avoid delevelling/relevelling unless I have to, as it seems unfair to my character, but thanks for the guidance.

@E65 - As an elf, I've cooked my goose for multiclassing other than to Wizard or a Prestige class.. '<img'> To be honest, I've used Leto to try out an AA build (to total L12) with a human Fighter 4 (with Longbow Specialization) as a base, and tested it with PGCC to get an idea of a max powerful AA.  I wasn't blown away, but I didn't give it a fair try.  I may try your Rogue/Cleric option another day, though!

To give you an idea of my point of reference, I have a Bard 10/Ftr1/Barb1 well into Chapter 2.  This is my first build, so not at all optimised, but generally fun to play.  Every now and then I get fed up banging my head against her limitations, and go back to my more recent dwarven Fighter or elven Rogue for some variation.

For the Rogue, I'm thinking of taking two more levels of rogue to get Mobility and Improved Evasion, then a level of Shadowdancer, and then Wizard (Weapon Focus Longbow, Spell Focus Illusion) and finally AA.  I'll be able to sneak, attack, and hide again.   And for those pesky undead, there's Imbue Arrow.  What's not to like???!
               
               

               


                     Modifié par brendonwp, 04 mars 2013 - 06:26 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Empyre65

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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 01:12:07 pm »


               You can only have a maximum of 3 classes, so you can't have Rogue, SD, Wizard and AA in one build.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 03:16:00 pm »


               

brendonwp wrote...
@HM - Thanks for the detailed reply!  Yes, these were starting stats, so naked my elf has (at Level 8):
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 16
Ch 14
Wis 8
....etc.

I must have been confusing your build with a another rogue, a halfling in that case.  With elf, you'll be facing a 10% XP penalty MCing with any class but wiz or prestige as you realize so you may eat the penalty if you don't mind it.

Imbue is handy.  Less so against high-reflex creatures like bandits, etc.  AA really begins to shine AFTER level 10 when it gains the highest AB bonus of any class in epic, inclusing WM.  The +5 enchantment is also nice to pierce DR but in the OC specifically, you will have access to +5 range weapons of many types, definitely by the time you would have reach AA 10.

TBH, the only real gaping deficiencies in a pure rogue sneaker build is feats.  KD/IKD, WF/WS:a finessable weapon, shield prof, Called Shot.  Fighter fits that best (no prereqs), but CoT (no XP penalty) will eventually be available (after rog 10) if you take WF:rapier (or other finesse) first.  The Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack route is really only significant in direct melee combat, as is Blind Fight.  SD hips is certainly an option but MUCH more applicable with a high stealth backstabber type, again a melee build.  Personally, I just use Invis potions myself.  I hate using the stealth movement penalty when I am about to get flanked.  And neither invisibility nor stealth will help against true seers (save those Sanctuary scrolls for that!).

An artillery archer (vs. a PBS archer) has little need for AC, high HPs or any of the elusive feats.  Your toon shouldn't EVER be getting hit except against archer mobs and spell mobs.  What IS essential, though, is Called Shot.  That's a staple of any archer build.  If you haven't tried controlling mobs with called leg shots, the OC is a great place to learn the ropes.  Throw in a few scrolls of Grease using your UMD skill and creatures will have a tough time closing on your toon.

And as far as Rapid Shot goes, I usually take it, but seldom use it.  I forget to.  There's nothing wrong with it, but I am able to hit and kill easily enough in normal mode and never trigger the xtra APR.  Well, maybe for bashing things once-in-a-while. I don't consider Rapid Shot all that necessary and hard-pressed to waste a a feat on PBS to get it except for an AA build prereq.  BTW... Rog10/Ftr8 (or CoT8) will be 3 APR. Rog8/Ftr10 will be 4 APR (25% more attacks).

So... I am guessing you are trying to build primarily an archer but have no clue how you intend to develop your melee skills, if at all.


edit: toon calculator, if you have MS Office installed
GreatInca's NWN trainer module
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 04 mars 2013 - 04:22 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_PracticalKat

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 06:52:20 am »


               @E65 - Doh, yes you're right  /deflates/   '<img'>

@HM - That test build with PBS and RS wasn't impressive, so I'll delevel and then relevel taking Called Shot and leave them out completely.  I've always heard that CS wasn't useful, but didn't know about the tactics you describe.   After that Rogue 9 (WF: Rapier), then Rogue 10 (Improved Evasion), and CoT all the way from there..

My idea of my character is of an affable, highly persuasive generalist who calculates the odds.   Someone who loves the beautiful art of archery, but has a Plan B when things go awry, as in tunnels where crowds can suddenly emerge from a side room.  

That kind of scenario is on my mind at the moment, because I'm tempted to try and solo the rest of the OC after reading a recent thread on the topic, but I've already seen loooong tunnels later in the game that will put an archer at a big disadvantage. So I'm tossing up between taking Shield Proficiency or Expertise later to help cope with this kind of situation.  

I definitely want to also take Weapon Focus (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), then maybe Mobility and Spring Attack, but I've never used the last two.  I already have a high Tumble skill as I'm pretty much maxing this out, so maybe TWF and Ambidexterity will give me more mileage with my sneak attack?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 02:48:14 pm »


               

brendonwp wrote...
That test build with PBS and RS wasn't impressive, so I'll delevel and then relevel taking Called Shot and leave them out completely.

...which why I mentioned the console controls.  The OC is essentially an orientation learning exercise so the console simply makes the learning process faster and more effcient (none of us are getting any younger!) once you've got the hang of it.  (It can also be used to correct game gliches, but that is another story altogether.)  Once you take your skills into the world of multiplayer LAN & PWs, you'll need to leave the console control behind and rely on the environment (some provide delevel/relevel utilities.... really!) and the DM to make adjustments to the occasional *oops*..

brendonwp wrote...
I've always heard that CS wasn't useful, but didn't know about the tactics you describe.   After that Rogue 9 (WF: Rapier), then Rogue 10 (Improved Evasion), and CoT all the way from there..

I wouldn't know how to survive mobs otherwise with a solo archer.  The AA does have the ability to use summon scrolls to erect for temporary meat shields but it causes me unrelenting irritation to share the XP reward with a non-PC.  An AA is best equipped to negate the AB penalties of Called Shot but if any archer focus on maximizing their primary ability (DEX), AB will be high enough to offset that penalty.

The most important level of the entire toon development cycle is Level 1.  The initial class, and especially the race, chosen can cast a pre-determined future on its flexibility.  The elf choice, although essentially an RP decision on your part, is expensive.  Human and half-elf are excellent "test" races with human gaining the extra feat and skill points.  Even halfling would have been superior (in this particular instance) to elf with its favored class, skill, attack, defense and proficiency advantages.  The difference between longbow and shortbow is really not as significant as one might think in most cases either.

Bottom line is:  this toon will never reach more than 3 APR (4 APR hasted) without eating some XP penalty (Fighter vs. CoT).  Big deal.  "Play the hand you're dealt.", I always say.

brendonwp wrote...
My idea of my character is of an affable, highly persuasive generalist who calculates the odds.   Someone who loves the beautiful art of archery, but has a Plan B when things go awry, as in tunnels where crowds can suddenly emerge from a side room.  

Sounds like a plan, not all that different from a few of my own. '<img'>

brendonwp wrote...
That kind of scenario is on my mind at the moment, because I'm tempted to try and solo the rest of the OC after reading a recent thread on the topic, but I've already seen loooong tunnels later in the game that will put an archer at a big disadvantage. So I'm tossing up between taking Shield Proficiency or Expertise later to help cope with this kind of situation.  

Don't forget stealth, traps and the ability to play a mini-mage with your UMD potential.  Expertise has a HUGE -5 AB penalty and DEXers are famous for low-damage.  They need to hit almost every attack due to this "dexpecker" effect, can be VERY annoying to a player against HP regen like trolls have.  The shield provides not only an AC boost, but sometimes custom properties that can significantly alter your toon's potential.  Expertise mode cannot be used with range weapons, but perhaps you knew that already?  Use kiting.  Plunk a single arrow into the leading opponent of a mob and then immediately retreat, ideally through a trap field you previously set up, then attempt to dispatch the closer(s) before they start to trigger your traps.  Any left unsprung can be easily recovered and used later on but they are a once-and-done appliance and the expensive ones are worth conserving for ultimate conflicts.  Do your recon properly (I usually use Invis potions and Detect mode with my rogues) and avoid most surprises.

brendonwp wrote...
I definitely want to also take Weapon Focus (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), then maybe Mobility and Spring Attack, but I've never used the last two.  I already have a high Tumble skill as I'm pretty much maxing this out, so maybe TWF and Ambidexterity will give me more mileage with my sneak attack?

You won't have enough feats to dual-wield effectively and will need a small weapon offhand to avoid the nasty DW penalties.  Besides that, since you are planning a dedicated archer with some emergency melee switch potential, you would lose the AC benefits of the shield (again, assuming you grab that prof) which is one of the reasons for the alternate path in the first place.  If you have an extra feat, Imp Crit: Rapier would be my suggestion.

Finally, since you will never reach BAB 16, you may be better off with a single rogue skill dump nearer the end for Tumble & UMD (and stealth, if you are going that route). Generally, odd splits are not recommended (i.e. CoT 7), but without prior planning the potential in this case is being force-fed. Rog 11 will get you another sneak as well. Also, don't neglect Spellcraft if you can avoid it.  Especially with high INT, your saves vs. spells will benefit for each 5 modified ranks in that skill.  Nothing wrong with xclassing a skill if you have the points to spare.  CoT saves will help, but Will and Fort will be rather low for a rogue.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 02:14:43 am »


               Er...there seems to be some misinformation going on here.

HipMaestro wrote...

Imbue is handy.  Less so against high-reflex creatures like bandits, etc.  AA really begins to shine AFTER level 10 when it gains the highest AB bonus of any class in epic, inclusing WM.  The +5 enchantment is also nice to pierce DR but in the OC specifically, you will have access to +5 range weapons of many types, definitely by the time you would have reach AA 10.


The +5 AA bonus is an attack and damage bonus that stacks with weapon bonuses.  A level 9 AA using a +5 bow and +5 arrows will have +10 AB and +10 damage.  AAs are amazing, period.

HipMaestro wrote...

And as far as Rapid Shot goes, I usually take it, but seldom use it.  I forget to.  There's nothing wrong with it, but I am able to hit and kill easily enough in normal mode and never trigger the xtra APR.


Hasted, Rapid Shot is something like a 10% damage bonus, if I recall correctly.  Non-hasted, it's like a 20% bonus.  About as much difference as gaining 1-2 AB overall.

HipMaestro wrote...

I wouldn't know how to survive mobs otherwise with a solo archer.  The AA does have the ability to use summon scrolls to erect for temporary meat shields but it causes me unrelenting irritation to share the XP reward with a non-PC.  An AA is best equipped to negate the AB penalties of Called Shot but if any archer focus on maximizing their primary ability (DEX), AB will be high enough to offset that penalty.


A solo archer, even at lower levels, tends to have as much AC as a non-shield using plate wearer, so I don't know where you "I can't survive" thing is coming from.  His character (18 base dexterity) with +2 dex from items and 2 dex from a Cat's Grace potion is only 1 AC behind Full Plate, except he also has tumble.  The AoO are also not terrible, especially with Mobility.

A lot of people seem to think archers are far more fragile in melee than they actually are in default NWN, especially with mobility and Point Blank Shot.

HipMaestro wrote...

The most important level of the entire toon development cycle is Level 1.  The initial class, and especially the race, chosen can cast a pre-determined future on its flexibility.  The elf choice, although essentially an RP decision on your part, is expensive.  Human and half-elf are excellent "test" races with human gaining the extra feat and skill points.  Even halfling would have been superior (in this particular instance) to elf with its favored class, skill, attack, defense and proficiency advantages.  The difference between longbow and shortbow is really not as significant as one might think in most cases either.


Level 1 being the most important is true.  However, for an AA, Elf is fine.  For a pure rogue, elf is fine.  The dex bonus is quite nice.  He can easily go something like 8 rogue/1 wiz/rest AA if he wants, with another rogue level for skill dumps in the teens.

HipMaestro wrote...

Bottom line is:  this toon will never reach more than 3 APR (4 APR hasted) without eating some XP penalty (Fighter vs. CoT).  Big deal.  "Play the hand you're dealt.", I always say.


APR is less important than AB, though the two are somewhat linked.  However, a 9 Rogue/1 Wizard/10 AA would get 16 BAB.  17 BAB with 8 rogue/2 wizard/10 AA.  Both of those are 4 APR non-hasted.

HipMaestro wrote...

Don't forget stealth, traps and the ability to play a mini-mage with your UMD potential.  Expertise has a HUGE -5 AB penalty and DEXers are famous for low-damage.  They need to hit almost every attack due to this "dexpecker" effect, can be VERY annoying to a player against HP regen like trolls have.


They definitely don't need to hit on almost every attack - in fact, most stereotypical dex classes have LOWER AB.  If anything, they generally outlast their opponents with extremely high AC and Evasion with high reflex.

Regen can definitely be annoying, but trolls only regen 5 per round, I believe.  As long as you do more than 5 damage per round, you can wear them down, and you'll take almost no damage doing it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 mars 2013 - 02:15 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_PracticalKat

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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 07:23:12 am »


               @HM - I'll think a bit more about this.  Had a look at the ToC guide and there are synergies with Charisma that will give me some benefits as well.  Also had a quick look at your trapping guide from another thread, and can see I'll be making use of that. Yes, I'm boosting the stealth and trap skills, as well as UMD and tumble, and I've started working on spellcraft.  What is your take on Parry?  Is it worth putting five points into, or is it for melee specialists only? 

Now I need to go and stock up on Holy Traps etc.  I wish I hadn't splurged all that cash on having Marrok make lovely weapons for Daelan and armour for Linu.. ah, well '<img'>  Do you have any suggestions for good spells against undead?  I haven't tried this at all so far.  

@MM - Are you saying that Haste decreases damage from Rapid Shot?  Is there a major penalty to AB with Haste? Please explain..  

On AC, maybe I need to understand tactics better, but so far I seem to need to keep my distance from mobs.  My dexterity and tumble keep me out of trouble often, but if I am surrounded then it's game over fairly quickly.  Mobility would be nice to have.  At the moment I'm feat-starved, and not having gotten my archery feats all lined up I'm still aiming for Weapon Focus (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), and Shield Proficiency / Mobility at a minimum.  

In any case, I'm loath to reroll my character completely, so I'm going to do without RapidShot this time.  I briefly tested out this build with levels of AA in the PGCC, and it didn't shine so I'm thinking of playing a dedicated archer in SoU and HoU.  Which AA build(s) do you favour?

At this stage I plan to lower Charisma to 10 and Intelligence to 14, so I have at least 14 Strength and can boost Dexterity.  Then start off something like Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 before Wizard and AA.  I won't be so reliant on sneak attack then, and can deal decent damage from early on, but will have some skills too.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par brendonwp, 06 mars 2013 - 08:06 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 06:48:40 pm »


               

MagicalMaster wrote...

Er...there seems to be some misinformation going on here.

The +5 AA bonus is an attack and damage bonus that stacks with weapon bonuses.  A level 9 AA using a +5 bow and +5 arrows will have +10 AB and +10 damage.

Right.  Good point. Forgot about the ammo damage stacking (playing low-magic a VERY long time now).  I tend to view a build independant from item enhancements so AA still has that unique advantage of piercing the DR even with mundane weapon & ammo.

Hasted, Rapid Shot is something like a 10% damage bonus, if I recall correctly.  Non-hasted, it's like a 20% bonus.  About as much difference as gaining 1-2 AB overall.

Depends on BAB.  Lower BAB means lower APR means that extra shot per RS is worth more.  So, more benefit for say a wiz archer (2APR) with than a fighter archer (4APR).  Also, if the AB penalty significantly reduces the hit percentage (where the AC is set around that level), the damage benefits are case-specific. And, as I stated, the mode needs to be constantly toggled ON.  Meh.  Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

A solo archer, even at lower levels, tends to have as much AC as a non-shield using plate wearer, so I don't know where you "I can't survive" thing is coming from.  His character (18 base dexterity) with +2 dex from items and 2 dex from a Cat's Grace potion is only 1 AC behind Full Plate, except he also has tumble.  The AoO are also not terrible, especially with Mobility.

A lot of people seem to think archers are far more fragile in melee than they actually are in default NWN, especially with mobility and Point Blank Shot.

That's because they are more fragile, intrinsically. Not sure what you mean by default NWN.  To me, that means "without haks or overrides".  The challenge of the situations are dictated by design and layout of encounters.  The milk-toast campaigns can be made very challenging just by changing the CR chosen in the encounters using default creature blueprints.

All true observations, for the most part.  Yes, vesting in elusive feats can help.  But I seriously disagree with the effect of AoOs with a DEX archer (vs. Zen type), especially when flanked by fast-hitting DevCrit or high damage (like Scythemasters) foes.  And god help you when getting caught flat-footed repeatedly.  I'm referring to diverse situations here, not the OC specifically, where these sort of situations rarely get tested.

Level 1 being the most important is true.  However, for an AA, Elf is fine.  For a pure rogue, elf is fine.  The dex bonus is quite nice.  He can easily go something like 8 rogue/1 wiz/rest AA if he wants, with another rogue level for skill dumps in the teens.

Half-elf would have allowed more flexibility if the final build had not been determined and still allowed for AA.  I didn't get the impression that this build was specifically focused on building an AA.  If so, my bad.

Was referring to class restrictions without going the wiz/AA route and the consequences of either eating the XP penalty (by using fighter to gain feats) or being forced to use a prestige class (like CoT) to ease the "feat breach" but attain no more than 3APR (non-hasted).  For the rog/wiz/AA plan, I see no issue except for dealing with the AoOs, which you apparently feel is a non-issue.  I respectfully amd adamantly disagree, in general.  For the OC in particular, any deficient build works fine.

.
APR is less important than AB, though the two are somewhat linked. 

Again. I fervently disagree.  When facing opposing ACs that can only be breached on natural 20s, APR will rule.... every time.  You can basically ignore AB altogether.  Against ACs that can be beaten easily, I agree with your statement.  More attacks at higher AB is better in those limited cases.  Typically, I aim to deal with the most challenging conditions when I build or make recommendations rather than the mundane scenarios.  EVENTUALLY players will begin to experience stiff challenges and may as well start to get accustomed to a reliable strategy as soon as possible.  Bad habits are hard to break.

However, a 9 Rogue/1 Wizard/10 AA would get 16 BAB.  17 BAB with 8 rogue/2 wizard/10 AA.  Both of those are 4 APR non-hasted.

Max level for the OC is 18 MagicalMaster, and that only without extensive hench support.  The OC's ECL system can make even Level 18 very problematic depending on the class split. Knock off at least the last two levels in your sample splits to view the true ending BAB in the campaign  The Rog8/wiz2/AA8 is BAB 15 (3APR) as is the highest BAB I suggested possible without accruing an XP penalty for a non-AA alternative.

RE: "DEXpecker" effect

They definitely don't need to hit on almost every attack - in fact, most stereotypical dex classes have LOWER AB.  If anything, they generally outlast their opponents with extremely high AC and Evasion with high reflex.

Regen can definitely be annoying, but trolls only regen 5 per round, I believe.  As long as you do more than 5 damage per round, you can wear them down, and you'll take almost no damage doing it.

Unless they can either crit regularly like a Dexer Kukrimaster critting over 50% of the time or is able to overcome DR with weapon enhancement (or AA enhancement), yes, they need to hit A LOT.  95% would be ideal. So, foes like revenant, curst & vampires are literally impossible for a Dexer to kill, at least by pure melee.  I've already faced regen golems (default NWN blueprints) that also confounded most Dexers (a cleric dexer is one exception).  Trolls are just annoying, but killable with patience and a strong bladder.  At higher levels, an AA's damage bonus can help a lot, but 8-10 levels is fairly low.  Weapon Spec (Ftr) or Favored Enemies (Rgr) may compensate for the low damage, but with the elven Rog 8 start for an OC build there is little flexibilty left.

So "misinformation" is completely contingent upon perspective, isn't it, MM? '<img'>   Just a collection of opinions, really.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 06 mars 2013 - 07:13 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Rogue Development for OC
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 07:57:46 pm »


               

brendonwp wrote...

@HM - What is your take on Parry?  Is it worth putting five points into, or is it for melee specialists only? 

My characters use mostly the other modes and haven't played a plain fighter type for eons so not elected in many situations for serious testing.  The skill was nerfed but probably has some value in it.  It's not a trained skill so any toon can try it out. Idf you are really interested in exploring the potential, I suggest just making a sample agile fighter, maxing the skill and DEX ability to see how effective it is vs. mobs and bosses.  (The trainer module I linked before is a handy way to test these things.  Enable combat debugging when do to view exactly what is happening.)

Do you have any suggestions for good spells against undead?  I haven't tried this at all so far.  

For who... your henchie or your toon?  What kind of undead?  Zombies? Demilichs?  Cleric will try to turn them or use Undeath to Death, Heal or Mass Heal.  Arcanists have lots of options depending on the SR & immunities being faced.

I briefly tested out this build with levels of AA in the PGCC, and it didn't shine so I'm thinking of playing a dedicated archer in SoU and HoU.  Which AA build(s) do you favour?

SoU is MUCH more difficult than the OC.  HotU is slightly more difficult than the OC, a few really tough battles but the magic level is so high that few foes present much of a challenge.  You'll need to plan a build that sacrifices a bit of overall optimization during HotU to boost your survival in SoU.  Others may have different opinions about this but IMO SoU is the most balanced campaign of the 3 and most closely mimics true 3.0 D&D.  Too bad it is so short, though. '<img'>

At this stage I plan to lower Charisma to 10 and Intelligence to 14, so I have at least 14 Strength and can boost Dexterity.  Then start off something like Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 before Wizard and AA.  I won't be so reliant on sneak attack then, and can deal decent damage from early on, but will have some skills too.

You're still forgeting that you only get 3 classes per build.  Typically, if Tumble and UMD are desirable, we build Fighter (or ranger)/bard/AA... usually bard 2 to get a late skill dump.  I prefer cleric/bard (or wiz)/AA myself, the divine AA build, but it takes longer to develop. It is an excellent dual-attack (not DWing) build that can utilize the best of both range and melee without investing heavily in weapon focus.  Cleric solves so many problems and eliminates many weaknesses.

But ranged sneaks are very devastating for most foes so there is a lot of merit to a rogue version.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 06 mars 2013 - 08:00 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Rogue Development for OC
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 11:10:10 pm »


               
Quote
brendonwp wrote...

@MM - Are you saying that Haste decreases damage from Rapid Shot?  Is there a major penalty to AB with Haste? Please explain..


No, just that bonus matters less.  Let's say I'm paying you $100 a year.  I then offer to pay you $50 more for doing X hours of extra work.  You say "Sure, that's worth it to me, a 50% increase in salary for X more work."  Then offer to pay you $50 more AGAIN for doing X hours of extra work.  Well, since your "base" salary is now $150, doing X extra hours again is only a 33% bonus.

Technically speaking, there are further details involving some more complicated nuances, but the basic gist is that getting an extra attack matters less if you already have an extra attack.

Quote
brendonwp wrote...

On
AC, maybe I need to understand tactics better, but so far I seem to need to keep my distance from mobs.  My dexterity and tumble keep me out of trouble often, but if I am surrounded then it's game over fairly quickly.  Mobility would be nice to have.  At the moment I'm feat-starved, and not having gotten my archery feats all lined up I'm still aiming for Weapon Focus (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), and Shield Proficiency / Mobility at a minimum.


Are you choosing your gear to maximize your AC?  Amulets with natural armor AC?  Ring/cloak of with deflection AC?  Boots with dodge AC?  Gear with dex bonuses?

To make sure I'm not remembering stuff incorrectly, I went ahead and started the original campaign with something similar to you - Elf Rogue with 14/18/12/14/10/8 in stats. Dodge at level 1, PBS at level 3, Mobility at level 6, Weapon Focus at level 9 (only in Peninsula Distract at the moment, though, at level 4).

Quote
brendonwp wrote...

In any case, I'm loath to reroll my character completely, so I'm going to do without RapidShot this time.  I briefly tested out this build with levels of AA in the PGCC, and it didn't shine so I'm thinking of playing a dedicated archer in SoU and HoU.  Which AA build(s) do you favour?


Elf 8 Fighter/3 Bard/29 AA is probably my favorite if XP penalty isn't an issue.  10 fighter/1 wizard/29 AA if XP matters.

Rogue 10/Wiz 1/AA 29 or Rogue 9/Wiz 2/AA 29 is also nice (depends on whether 1 AB or Improved Evasion is more important).

Quote
brendonwp wrote...

At this stage I plan to lower Charisma to 10 and Intelligence to 14, so I have at least 14 Strength and can boost Dexterity.  Then start off something like Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 before Wizard and AA.  I won't be so reliant on sneak attack then, and can deal decent damage from early on, but will have some skills too.


Like HipMaestro said, three class limit.  But yes, you shouldn't go above 14 Int and I'd suggest 10 Cha max.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Depends on BAB.  Lower BAB means lower APR means that extra shot per RS is worth more.  So, more benefit for say a wiz archer (2APR) with than a fighter archer (4APR).  Also, if the AB penalty significantly reduces the hit percentage (where the AC is set around that level), the damage benefits are case-specific. And, as I stated, the mode needs to be constantly toggled ON.  Meh.  Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.


RS is worth the most when your AB is extremely high compared to the AC (AAs can often exceed the AC of the target by a fair amount) or extremely low compared to the AC.  It's possible to have a situation where using Rapid Shot is a slight (like a few percent) damage decrease, but they all require you to be Hasted.

Regardless, you can get by without RS in most cases no matter what.  It's typically the benefit of 1 AB, roughly.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

That's because they are more fragile, intrinsically. Not sure what you mean by default NWN.  To me, that means "without haks or overrides".


Using "standard" items and no scripted changes (or hak changes), mostly.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

All true observations, for the most part.  Yes, vesting in elusive feats can help.  But I seriously disagree with the effect of AoOs with a DEX archer (vs. Zen type), especially when flanked by fast-hitting DevCrit or high damage (like Scythemasters) foes.  And god help you when getting caught flat-footed repeatedly.  I'm referring to diverse situations here, not the OC specifically, where these sort of situations rarely get tested.


Flat footed isn't a problem with Uncanny Dodge.  Or rather, you're no worse off than a full plate wearer.

If anything, an AA like this is LESS vulnerable to Dev Crit because his AC is so high.  Let's compare something like a 40 fighter using a greatsword to an rogue/wiz/AA using +5 items (can do this analysis with other gear if you want).

Fighter
10 base AC
1 from Dex
8 from Full Plate
4 from Tumble
2 from Armor Skin
4 from Haste
20 from gear (Natural, Deflection, Dodge, Armor)

49 AC total.

AA
10 base AC
19 from Dex
8 from Tumble
2 from Armor Skin
4 from Haste
20 from gear

63 AC total (67 for AoO)

If the AA is in trouble from enemies hitting him, what in the world is happening to the fighter?  Even if we gave him a tumble dump and a shield, he'd still only have 61 AC - so he's still 2 AC behind our AA.

Furthermore - if opponents can only hit on 20s, then getting an AoO is a 16% damage bonus (assuming they have 4 attacks and are hasted).  Even if they're hitting the AA half the time, they're only getting an 18% damage bonus with the AoO.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Half-elf would have allowed more flexibility if the final build had not been determined and still allowed for AA.  I didn't get the impression that this build was specifically focused on building an AA.  If so, my bad.


If he wanted to multi-class with base classes like crazy, sure, half elf would be better.  But if he wanted a pure rogue (or rogue with prestige classes), Elf works well.  2 dex bonus, keen sense, Longbow proficiency.  You can argue that Halfling would work better in most cases, but Elf isn't a poor choice.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Again. I fervently disagree.  When facing opposing ACs that can only be breached on natural 20s, APR will rule.... every time.  You can basically ignore AB altogether.  Against ACs that can be beaten easily, I agree with your statement.  More attacks at higher AB is better in those limited cases.  Typically, I aim to deal with the most challenging conditions when I build or make recommendations rather than the mundane scenarios.  EVENTUALLY players will begin to experience stiff challenges and may as well start to get accustomed to a reliable strategy as soon as possible.  Bad habits are hard to break.


If you're facing ACs that can only be breached on natural 20s with an AA...something is seriously screwed up.  In that case, you might as well skip Weapon Focus/Epic Weapon Focus/Epic Prowess/Improved Critical and a number of other feats, because they will have absolutely no effect.  For anyone, not just AAs.

Hell, in that case any BAB beyond 16 is a complete waste as well.  Or anything beyond the breakpoints of 11 and 16, rather.

In short, a situation like that is not challenge, it's stupid design.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Max level for the OC is 18 MagicalMaster, and that only without extensive hench support.  The OC's ECL system can make even Level 18 very problematic depending on the class split. Knock off at least the last two levels in your sample splits to view the true ending BAB in the campaign  The Rog8/wiz2/AA8 is BAB 15 (3APR) as is the highest BAB I suggested possible without accruing an XP penalty for a non-AA
alternative.


Except if we're going by your logic, potentially nothing will get 4 APR.  Even a pure fighter might not reach level 16 with a henchman due to ECL.  Hardly seems to be a fair comparison.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Unless
they can either crit regularly like a Dexer Kukrimaster critting over 50% of the time or is able to overcome DR with weapon enhancement (or AA enhancement), yes, they need to hit A LOT.  95% would be ideal. So, foes like revenant, curst & vampires are literally impossible for a Dexer to kill, at least by pure melee.


Hang on - how did we go from only hitting on natural 20s to hitting 95% of the time (on the first attack?  on every attack?)?

Side note: if they can't overcome DR with weapon enhancement, most mobs like that have high enough DR that it won't be overcome, period, by a dexer.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

I've already faced regen golems (default NWN blueprints) that also confounded most Dexers (a cleric dexer is one exception).  Trolls are just annoying, but killable with patience and a strong bladder.  At higher levels, an AA's damage bonus can help a lot, but 8-10 levels is fairly low.  Weapon Spec (Ftr) or Favored Enemies (Rgr) may compensate for the low damage, but with the elven Rog 8 start for an OC build there is little flexibilty left.


Provide more detail?  I'm hesistant to believe there was a situation where 2 more damage made an unkillable enemy killable in default NWN blueprints while 1 AB or AA levels wouldn't have done the same or more.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

So "misinformation" is completely contingent upon perspective, isn't it, MM? '<img'>   Just a collection of opinions, really


Some of it is absolute, like the fact that AA enhancement stack with gear.  Or that, barring significant mechanical changes, Dexers will have much higher AC and higher survivability than Strength characters in almost every situation.  Or that AoO are a massive kiss of death whereas no AoO are a ray of light.

Some of it is subjective, like how exactly you're trying to measure stuff in the OC and leveling.  Or what the "best" race is for someone in this case.

Quote
HipMaestro wrote...

Quote
brendonwp wrote...

@HM - What is your take on Parry?  Is it worth putting five points into, or is it for melee specialists only? 

My characters use mostly the other modes and haven't played a plain fighter type for eons so not elected in many situations for serious testing.  The skill was nerfed but probably has some value in it.  It's not a trained skill so any toon can try it out. Idf you are really interested in exploring the potential, I suggest just making a sample agile fighter, maxing the skill and DEX ability to see how effective it is vs. mobs and bosses.  (The trainer module I linked before is a handy way to test these things.  Enable combat debugging when do to view exactly what is happening.)


Parry is bugged and pretty much worthless.  You can only deflect three attacks maximum per round at specific times (and some of these are usually attacks that would have missed anyway).  At its best, you might avoid an extra attack per round in exchange for giving up all but 1-2 of your attacks.

There are some very specific situations where it can be useful, mainly at lower level, but as a whole?  Useless.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 mars 2013 - 11:11 .