Overwhelmed by character choices (OC / SoU & HotU)

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               The goal of this build was to get RDD 10 in the OC, and I seriously kicked butt. I used Tomi in Chapter 1 for his trap-handling skills, and soloed after that. Then, Aribeth and I steamrolled through the Redemption of Aribeth series.

To show that I can, here's a build I optimized for level 40, which I plan to play soon in your Siege of the Heavens. I wanted a build with reasonably good AB and AC. This gets 48 AB and 36 AC, unbuffed:

Dragon Warrior (Fighter 22 / Bard 8 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)
Human, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM, PvP

Abilities:
STR: 18 (42)
DEX: 12
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 8 (10)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
02: Bard(1)
03: Fighter(2): Cleave, Blind Fight
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=19)
05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Knockdown
07: Bard(2)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1, (STR=22)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Toughness
10: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=24)
11: Fighter(5)
12: Bard(3): STR+1, Lightning Reflexes, (STR=25)
13: Fighter(6): Improved Critical: Scimitar
14: Fighter(7)
15: Fighter(: Iron Will, Improved Knockdown
16: Fighter(9): STR+1, (STR=26)
17: Fighter(10): Called Shot
18: Bard(4): Lingering Song
19: Fighter(11)
20: Fighter(12): STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=27)
21: Fighter(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
22: Bard(5)
23: Fighter(14): Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar
24: Fighter(15): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=29)
25: Fighter(16): Devastating Critical: Scimitar
26: Fighter(17)
27: Bard(6): Great Strength II, (STR=30)
28: Fighter(18): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (STR=31)
29: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
30: Red Dragon Disciple(6): Great Strength III, (STR=32)
31: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=14)
32: Red Dragon Disciple(: STR+1, (STR=33)
33: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength IV, (STR=34), (INT=16)
34: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=38), (CHA=10)
35: Fighter(19)
36: Fighter(20): STR+1, Great Strength V, Epic Prowess, (STR=40)
37: Bard(7)
38: Fighter(21)
39: Fighter(22): Great Strength VI, Armor Skin, (STR=41)
40: Bard(: STR+1, (STR=42)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 472
Skillpoints: 238
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/24/23
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9
BAB: 28
AB (max, naked): 48 (melee), 30 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 25/36
Spell Casting: Bard(0)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(59), Listen 43(42), Lore 25(36), Perform 15(15), Spellcraft 42(45), Tumble 40(41), UMD 30(30)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(4), Save(12)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Lore(1), Perform(4), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(3)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(6)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(9)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Lore(1), Save(
07: Listen(1), Perform(3), Tumble(5), UMD(6)
08: Discipline(2), Listen(1), Save(2)
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)
10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(
11: Discipline(1), Save(12)
12: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Perform(3), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
13: Discipline(1), Save(4)
14: Discipline(1), Save(
15: Discipline(1), Save(12)
16: Discipline(1), Save(16)
17: Discipline(1), Save(20)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(6), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
19: Discipline(1), Save(4)
20: Discipline(1), Save(
21: Discipline(1), Save(12)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
23: Discipline(1), Save(4)
24: Discipline(1), Save(
25: Discipline(1), Save(12)
26: Discipline(1), Save(16)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
28: Discipline(1), Save(4)
29: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Spellcraft(6)
30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3)
31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(4)
35: Discipline(1), Save(5)
36: Discipline(1), Save(10)
37: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Tumble(10), UMD(4)
38: Discipline(1), Lore(5)
39: Discipline(1), Lore(2), Save(3)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Perform(2), Spellcraft(5)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 20 octobre 2013 - 11:27 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
Well, if you could trade those 5 RDD levels in a vacuum for bard levels, for example, you'd pick up 3 AC.  I'd also probably go 8 Bard/4 Fighter/8 RDD pre-epic.  Not really important for the OC or anything, but that build can be hugely optimized.

Agreed.  A much more optimized spread.  One should not allow the relative observed performance of a ny build on a learning campaign like the OC bias their build dynamics common sense.  Try 10 RDD pre-epic vs. 8 pre-epic in the SoU-HotU series and report which one was the stronger overall design.  

But even theincreased challenge level of the expansions won't emphasize clearly the shortcomings of a purposely-gimped build as will an environment specifically-designed to test levels 20 & higher both PvM & PvP.

This topic is addressing build designs Lvl 28 and under.  Those builds designed for higher levels are hardly organized with enough flexibility to maximize the potential at subsidiary levels.

Why encourage an unoptimized build approach when a better one is there for taking with some careful planning?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Empyre65 wrote...

To show that I can, here's a build I optimized for level 40, which I plan to play soon in your Siege of the Heavens. I wanted a build with reasonably good AB and AC. This gets 48 AB and 36 AC, unbuffed:

I guess my main question is this: what are you trying to accomplish with this build?

If you're aiming for "Plays like a fighter but better than pure fighter due to RDD" then you want to shift to 26 Fighter/4 bard/10 RDD or even 28 Fighter/2 Bard/10 RDD

If you're aiming for "Melee bard with RDD abilities" then you want to shift to something like 20 Bard/10 Fighter/10 RDD  -- even without casting many spells at all (or any spells), you'll have a far more powerful Bard Song and Curse Song (instead of +2 AB for yourself, you'll have +7 AB/AC for yourself in effect).

Right now your build doesn't seem to cater to the strengths of either approach.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Westan Willows wrote...

How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?

Meaning what?  Usually a Sorcerer takes like 1 level of paladin to gain a massive saving throw bonus and that is it.  It's most like Sorcerer (P.S. One paladin level).

In epic modules sometimes you'll see 3 paladin levels along with Divine Shield and Autostill Spell to have a full plated caster but it's really not worth it for a level 20 world.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Westan Willows wrote...
How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?

The only way I know to do it within 18 levels is Src15/Pal2/Clc1 with Lvl 1 Src Power attack, Lvl 2 Clc, Lvl 3 Pal Div Might, Lvl 4-5 Src, Lvl 6 Pal Div Shield, Lvl 7-18 Sorc.  I used a Str13/Dex 10/Con 14/Wis 11/Int 12/Cha 16(20) split but you can juggle it around a bit if you like.  Just keep a Str13 min is all.  At least the cleric level isn't wasted with Divine Favor & Shield of Faith available.  Dunno which domains to recommend, though.  Trickery & War perhaps.  Down side is you'll only reach level 7 sorc spells by clvl 18.  But that is one example of the trade-offs trying to multiclass in an abridged campaign.  In the SoU/HotU series, you'll get all sorc spells, for sure.

And, btw... for the record.. the Div Might & Div Shield can be triggered while polymorphed. If you can Empower Eagle's Splendor you'll gain an additional +3 to the CHA modifier. That would be +8 divine damage and +8 dodge AC... that's without any +CHA gear.

Shouldn't need to wear armor, really.  I never do with arcanists except like MM suggested you have room for all the autostill feats or don't mind managing still slots.  That's a matter of personal taste IMO.  Even with ~28 levels by the end of HotU, Autostill feats is too costly.  Need a Level 40 environment for those I think.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               Thanks HipMaestro I will give that built a try. Now I wonder if I can work in Src/Pal/RDD.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Westan Willows wrote...
Thanks HipMaestro I will give that built a try. Now I wonder if I can work in Src/Pal/RDD.

Not in the OC, anyway. Not enough levels unless you want to gimp it just for wings... assuming you want Div Might/Div Shield as beneficial feats rather than just thrown in for looks.

SoU/HotU would be better suited with 28 levels to play with.  But even then you will need to decide if you want to focus on spellcasting or melee presence.  It would take the 4 Pal levels in pre-epic, probably either 4 or 8 RDD pre-epic which leaves only room for 14 levels of Src and that limits spellcasting to level 7.  That's a given if you are looking to acquire wings. That's more of a melee mage build.

A more spell-focused version would be Pal 4/Sorc 18/RDD 6 which would only net +4 STR and the d10 HP HD. At least you would have access to the level 9 polymorphs and other high level spells that way.

As others have stated already, multiclassing for short campaigns will dilute the intrinsic power of most builds.  Dump levels like rogue, bard, monk, etc. have some real value, but a build that relies on a huge chunk of levels like RDD does, can become unmanageable without gimping the final result.

Yes, it's true that one can just keep playing any build up to level 40 using different modules with CR levels suited for XP to establish an optimization, but that won't help the performance in the individual campaigns which rely on optimizations for those levels specifically. Most of the power builds are designed to achieve prowess in combat for a particular server level, usually 20, 30 or 40.

Another thing to keep in mind when playing SP is versatility and flexibility at the cost of power-gaming.  Sure, you can create a kick-butt toon by exploiting some combos but that won't help much dealing with customizations built into the module like traps, persuade checks, ability checks (like DEX as a common one), alignment or race restrictions and even gender (like in the OC).  So skills can play a significant role in just progressing where power is just one factor in the equation of success.

Apologies for the sermon, but I feel these are important issues to keep in mind when designing a build for a constrained SP environment and pertains to the OP topic.  Actually, I don't recall ever seeing a single 1-40 level module offered on the Vault... ever!  Doubt if they even exist.

I suppose if I had to make a choice, I would go with the Pal 4/Src 14/RDD 10 version which I am sure could be tailored enough to play well at all levels in SoU & HotU.  If you would like a full build example, I can message one.  Don't know how Empyre (or anyone else for that matter!) pastes a full build so nicely into the forum editor, but mine are full of line breaks, tabs and crap that makes it almost unreadable without lots of re-editting (possibly a browser issue?  dunno).  Message's don't funk it up at all.  Odd, eh? 

Let me know. I'd be happy to pass one along. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               I am working on the Sorc/Pal/Clc now. If I do Pal/Sorc/RDD then I would go melee, with one sorc lv
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               I am finding Divine Shield to be better than the Mage spell Shield.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Westan Willows wrote...
I am finding Divine Shield to be better than the Mage spell Shield.

Div Shield adds dodge AC, Shield spell, deflection.  Dodge AC stacks like with boots dodge AC.  But the two of them together will also prevent magic missile from hurting you.  And mage shield lasts turns per sorc level while Div Shield rounds of CHA modifier.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 22 octobre 2013 - 07:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Westan Willows]

               

HipMaestro wrote...

Westan Willows wrote...
I am finding Divine Shield to be better than the Mage spell Shield.

Div Shield adds dodge AC, Shield spell, deflection.  Dodge AC stacks like with boots dodge AC.  But the two of them together will also prevent magic missile from hurting you.  And mage shield lasts turns per sorc level while Div Shield rounds of CHA modifier.

And they stack well as I just found out.:happy:
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

If you're aiming for "Plays like a fighter but better than pure fighter due to RDD" then you want to shift to 26 Fighter/4 bard/10 RDD or even 28 Fighter/2 Bard/10 RDD

Maybe this is what you have in mind. I had to give up Dev Crit to make it work, and despite spending 2 more feats on saves, the saves are not as good. It does have 2 more AB. Here's an option: If you prefer, drop UMD and some of the Lore to maximize Taunt, or simply transfer some of the Lore to UMD.

Dragon Warrior 2 (Fighter 28 / Bard 2 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)
Human, Non-Lawful
Playable Level 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 18 (42)
DEX: 12
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 8 (10)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Fighter(1): Snake Blood, Luck of Heroes, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
02: Fighter(2): Power Attack
03: Fighter(3): Blind Fight
04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (STR=19)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Skill Focus: Discipline, Cleave
07: Fighter(7)
08: Fighter(: STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=20)
09: Fighter(9): Alertness
10: Fighter(10): Improved Critical: Scimitar
11: Fighter(11)
12: Fighter(12): STR+1, Toughness, Knockdown, (STR=21)
13: Fighter(13)
14: Fighter(14): Improved Knockdown
15: Fighter(15): Lightning Reflexes
16: Fighter(16): STR+1, Called Shot, (STR=22)
17: Fighter(17)
18: Fighter(18): Iron Will, Expertise
19: Fighter(19)
20: Fighter(20): STR+1, Improved Expertise, (STR=23)
21: Bard(1): Epic Reflexes
22: Red Dragon Disciple(1)
23: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=25)
24: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=27)
25: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=29)
26: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
27: Red Dragon Disciple(6): Great Strength II, (STR=30)
28: Red Dragon Disciple(7): STR+1, (STR=31), (CON=14)
29: Red Dragon Disciple(
30: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength III, (STR=32), (INT=16)
31: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=36), (CHA=10)
32: Fighter(21): STR+1, (STR=37)
33: Fighter(22): Great Strength IV, Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar, (STR=38)
34: Fighter(23)
35: Fighter(24): Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
36: Fighter(25): STR+1, Great Strength V, (STR=40)
37: Fighter(26): Epic Prowess
38: Fighter(27)
39: Fighter(28): Great Strength VI, Armor Skin, (STR=41)
40: Bard(2): STR+1, (STR=42)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 496
Skillpoints: 229
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/18/25
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Poison: +2
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 50 (melee), 32 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 25/36
Spell Casting: Bard(0)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(62), Listen 43(44), Lore 30(35), Perform 6(6), Spellcraft 42(45), Tumble 40(41), UMD 25(25)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(4), Save(12)
02: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(15)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(18)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(21)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(24)
06: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(27)
07: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(30)
08: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(33)
09: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(36)
10: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(39)
11: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(42)
12: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(45)
13: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(48)
14: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(51)
15: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(54)
16: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(57)
17: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(60)
18: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(63)
19: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(66)
20: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(69)
21: Discipline(1), Listen(24), Lore(1), Perform(6), Spellcraft(24), Tumble(20)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(1)
23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(2)
24: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3)
25: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(4)
26: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(6)
28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(
29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(10)
30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(12)
31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(15)
32: Discipline(1), Save(20)
33: Discipline(1), Save(25)
34: Discipline(1), Save(30)
35: Discipline(1), Save(35)
36: Discipline(1), Save(40)
37: Discipline(1), Save(45)
38: Discipline(1), Save(50)
39: Discipline(1), Save(55)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(9), Spellcraft(, Tumble(20), UMD(25)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Double post.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 22 octobre 2013 - 11:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               Small tweak: if you want Dev Crit, drop to 19 Fighter/1 Bard pre-epic -- overall change of -1 AB, -2 Reflex, +2 Will along with gaining Overwhelming/Devastating Critical.

If you don't want Dev Crit, then you can also raise Dex to 13 and Con to 14 initially (dropping Str to 17) -- gets you the ability to pick up Dodge/Mobility if you want along with 40 HP (at the cost of 4 Reflex).

Also obviously have the option of moving Lore points into UMD if the world/module requires it.

HipMaestro wrote...

Apologies for the sermon, but I feel these are important issues to keep in mind when designing a build for a constrained SP environment and pertains to the OP topic.  Actually, I don't recall ever seeing a single 1-40 level module offered on the Vault... ever!  Doubt if they even exist.

Well, Aielund is pretty close -- 1 to 36.  But yeah.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 22 octobre 2013 - 11:58 .