Wizard build for the official campaigns

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

I just don't really see the point of Expertise.  Weaker mobs will be mostly defeated by Ghostly Visage/Shadow Shield or be AoEed quickly, stronger mobs will hit you anyway (which is why you have Stoneskin/Premonition/Improved Invisibility/Damage Shields/etc).

You're giving up spell feats to improve yourself against the things that should be least threatening.

well speaking of OC, the expertise isnt such great benefit indeed, the OC is relatively easy (even on hard game difficulty) and its played on low lvl environment with a support of one or more (HotU) henchmans.

So, the question sounds what is truly needed? Spell penetration? BS - no one have SR and even the one or two NPC who might have it doesnt have it so high that pure caster wouldnt penetrated it. Also there is a amulet that grants spel lpenetration feat and few extra spell slots.

Spell focuses? +2DC isnt really difference, mobs in OC doesnt have evasion and most spells will kill them instantly. At 11lvl there is IGMS (no DC) which is the spell with best dmg. You dont need anything else anymore after you get into that level.

Even that, there are items that grants spell focus feats - elven armor and vecna robe IIRC.

True answer is that you cant screw the build for OC really. You might even later change the plan and take some fighter levels and focus more on melee combat (in OC thats possible, monsters have really low AC) or rogue to get access to interesting skills. The only we can provide is guideline.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               The OC can be a challenge going through it the first time. There aren't many hard fights, but there are a couple where the PC might not know a boss is there or that he's about to get swarmed. The thing with the OC is that there are so many ways to get items and so on that compensate for marginal build choices, that sheer intuition will result in a playable build 99% of the time, even not understanding the nuances that come into play creating "better" builds. But, as ShaDoOoW notes, the OC is mostly easy enough that there isn't anything specific to shoot for in a build, so it's hard to define a best approach to the process. To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

Regarding expertise and improved expertise in the OC, I don't see any real problem in taking it. By the end of the OC, a mage can walk into most encounters with long-term buffed AC in the low-to-mid forties without really trying for an AC build. But, there are some bosses with pretty good AB (30+). Think of a couple of the chapter three dragons, giants, etc. Those guys will hit that mage once or twice a round and tear through his DR spells pretty quickly. Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree. But, that's a tactical choice and I would say that improved expertise is a valid tactic.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

well speaking of OC, the expertise isnt such great benefit indeed, the OC is relatively easy (even on hard game difficulty) and its played on low lvl environment with a support of one or more (HotU) henchmans.

He's doing it without henchman/familiar/summon support, just as an FYI.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So, the question sounds what is truly needed? Spell penetration? BS - no one have SR and even the one or two NPC who might have it doesnt have it so high that pure caster wouldnt penetrated it. Also there is a amulet that grants spel lpenetration feat and few extra spell slots.

You obviously haven't played it in a while.  Quite a few mobs with spell resist, often powerful ones, but I'd rather not give spoilers.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

+2DC isnt really difference, mobs in OC doesnt have evasion and most spells will kill them instantly. At 11lvl there is IGMS (no DC) which is the spell with best dmg. You dont need anything else anymore after you get into that level.

+2(4) DC can often be anywhere from a 5-10% damage increase (10-20% for Greater Spell Focus) with spells, which is like a free caster level or two.  It's not even to beat Evasion, it's to make them do full damage.  IGMS is great for 1 or 2 targets, but for actual AoE he'll be using Fireball/Firebrand/Cone of Cold/Horrid Wilting/etc which all benefit from Spell Foci.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

Even that, there are items that grants spell focus feats - elven armor and vecna robe IIRC.

Which are random drops and you're better off wearing better armor.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

True answer is that you cant screw the build for OC really. You might even later change the plan and take some fighter levels and focus more on melee combat (in OC thats possible, monsters have really low AC) or rogue to get access to interesting skills. The only we can provide is guideline.

True, you could do nothing but pick Skill Foci as feats and survive, but especially if you're new that's a bad idea.  And this fine fellow is new.

MrZork wrote...

To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

The thing is that while defense is only good up until a certain point, more offense is always better.  It's always beneficial to be better at killing things.  It often doesn't matter if your defenses are better.

MrZork wrote...

Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree.

First, what would he give up for Improved Expertise?

Second, I'd argue the mage should be killing the guys so fast it doesn't matter.  Put up damage shields and blast the enemies with spells, preferably IGMS for single targets if you have it, nothing should live more than a few rounds anyway.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Fine the spell focuses are really usefull, +2DC is indeed +10%. There is also nothing else to take instead anyway.

Yet you dont persuade me about spell penetration. You are right that I havent played it for a while. I played HotU recently but only first chapter (I played wiz/AA and did not havent seen any spell resilient creature).
So maybe there actually are creatures with high spell resistance in OC. But how many? Is it worth to spend two feats on one or two bossess that can be beaten other way (henchman, damage shields, spells ignoring SR)?

However it is truth that there are no other choices really for the generic spellcaster. Maybe focus on enchantment spell school, or the discussed expertise which is nearly useless in NWN OCs. 
But if the OP would want expertise, the penetration feats would be what he should give up.

Also, other possibility would be to take some combat related feats like rapid reload (for better handling crossbow), weapon focus (xbow or bow if elf), improved critical. Ranged weapons are very good choice for caster characters to deal with weaker enemies, luring enemies or to handle situations when the character is outa of spells. Also few xbows has a haste on them - not sure if they can be found in OC but definitely in HotU.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

The thing is that while defense is only good up until a certain point, more offense is always better.  It's always beneficial to be better at killing things.  It often doesn't matter if your defenses are better.

I certainly can't disagree that dead (not undead!) opponents typically pose no threat. '> What I was trying to point out is that a mage in the OC will not likely hit the point where more AC isn't helping him anymore. If he were likely to get to AC 60 without expertise, then I would certainly say, "You're in the clear on the AC front. It would be a waste to use any feats to improve it." But, I can think of at least one chapter three opponent whose AB is right around 40 (and has significant spell resistance) and at least one other in the mid 30s. And, there are several right around AB 30 in chapter four. For sure, a high AC isn't by any means necessary in the OC for a mage to deal with these or any other opponents; they will all fall to other approaches. But, it's also not the case that typical mage AC is already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.

More specifically, on the first run through the OC, it's certainly possible to be surprised by opponents before a mage has a chance to buff (or rebuff). On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety. I would certainly agree that it's also pretty straightforward to hotkey a stack of invisibility potions, but, again, that's a tactical choice.

Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree.

First, what would he give up for Improved Expertise?

Second, I'd argue the mage should be killing the guys so fast it doesn't matter.  Put up damage shields and blast the enemies with spells, preferably IGMS for single targets if you have it, nothing should live more than a few rounds anyway.

Yup; two feats is a significant tradeoff, even for +10 AC. And, I prefer the same tactics you would argue for. I think I have maybe one mage built with improved expertise. (Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.) But, as I noted in the last post, those are tactical choices and if the OP wants tactics that allow his mage to be right in the thick of things (which is likely to happen at times if, as I understand it, he is going to solo the module), then the strategy of taking the expertise feats to bump spellcasting AC is a valid way of enabling that tactic. The OC is specifically built to allow this sort of variety in builds. If the OP wants to do things this way, he can certainly be very effective with it.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yet you dont persuade me about spell penetration. You are right that I havent played it for a while. I played HotU recently but only first chapter (I played wiz/AA and did not havent seen any spell resilient creature).
So maybe there actually are creatures with high spell resistance in OC. But how many? Is it worth to spend two feats on one or two bossess that can be beaten other way (henchman, damage shields, spells ignoring SR)?

It's not even bosses that I'm thinking of, there are a decent chunk of enemies with some spell resist.  And a few of them are before he would have ready access to Breaches, which is why I suggested he get Spell Penetration early on.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Also, other possibility would be to take some combat related feats like rapid reload (for better handling crossbow), weapon focus (xbow or bow if elf), improved critical. Ranged weapons are very good choice for caster characters to deal with weaker enemies, luring enemies or to handle situations when the character is outa of spells. Also few xbows has a haste on them - not sure if they can be found in OC but definitely in HotU.

He'd be better off spamming a cantrip which he can get unlimited uses of.

MrZork wrote...

But, I can think of at least one chapter three opponent whose AB is right around 40 (and has significant spell resistance) and at least one other in the mid 30s. And, there are several right around AB 30 in chapter four. For sure, a high AC isn't by any means necessary in the OC for a mage to deal with these or any other opponents; they will all fall to other approaches. But, it's also not the case that typical mage AC is already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.

Actually, typical mage AC *is* already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.  Aka, typically so low that they're going to get hit a ton anyway.

In the OC's case, though, the overall level and magic level is low enough that mage AC might be 29ish in Chapter 3, assuming full buffs, compared to a shieldless plate wearer at about 36 (assuming no buffs) and a shield wearer with at least 42 AC.

So I guess it could theoretically help in this case.  They'd still get hit and have less hit points, but I guess they'd get hit less by those enemies, *assuming* he even remembers to use the ability.

MrZork wrote...

On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety.

Without buffs, that 29 AC would be 17, so 27 with Improved Expertise activated (+5 Shadow Shield, +4 Shield, +1 Mage Armor, +2 Cat's Grace).  Not sure how much measure of safety exists there.

MrZork wrote...

Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

And if it doesn't apply in the OC, it'll never apply anywhere with even something that might sorta maybe kinda resemble a challenge.

MrZork wrote...

 (Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.)

That's a full plate build.  In other words, it actually has enough base AC to make it worth using (Improved) Expertise.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 08 septembre 2012 - 08:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...
...

Non-boss monsters with SR? Could you tell me which ones? There isnt definitely even one such monster in chapter 1 as Ive played chapter 1 recently. And I have really good memory, so I remeber my first OC experiences (in that time withoufh expansions) and Ive played sorcerrer, and I dont recall any monster that would resisted my spell.

At any rate I would say that the advantage of the spell penetration feats is on par with expertise. Its 100% not neccessary as the fights can be won without it. It might make few specific fights in whole OC easier, but thats it.

Also - as far as SR related, by default maximum SR that can non-monk NPC have is 32. Some high HD clerics might have more if they have the spell resistance spell, but I havent seen such NPC yet anywhere. Thus for pure caster (or almost pure, in 40lvl build 31CL is good enough), the spell resistance isnt problem at all and I would strongly advise not to take it - in the case of wizard that has plenty of feats it doesnt matter so much but sorcerer doesnt have so many feats to spare.

MagicalMaster wrote...
cantrips

since when are cantrips unlimited? you mean this rod of cold ray? The advantage of the ranged weapon (which spells dont offer) is that they have much higher attack range. You can attack from great distance so you will have more time to prepare to cast spell before this npc approach you. Also the henchman AI will automatically attack the npc you are attacking which doesnt happen with spells where you have to wait till the npc gets close enough to your henchman would see him.

Of course with 8starting dexterity it might be hard to hit anything later in game, but for zombies in 1chapter this is excellent way how to get as many of them as possible on one place in order to blast them with burning hands.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 09 septembre 2012 - 07:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety.

Without buffs, that 29 AC would be 17, so 27 with Improved Expertise activated (+5 Shadow Shield, +4 Shield, +1 Mage Armor, +2 Cat's Grace). Not sure how much measure of safety exists there.

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.). The OP mentioned dex along with expertise, so, whether he chooses a decent starting dex or not, he's thinking enough about AC that he won't be ignoring the available gear. Obviously, the OP's mage can buff considerably to improve that, but he is gaining some safety going from low twenties to low thirties with improved expertise. Not against everyone, of course. There are bosses where the mage goes in buffed or he better kill that boss in a hurry if he plans on leaving alive. But, there are chapter three mob encounters where that initial +10 will be enough to get the first buff off (e.g. Shadow Shield or a DR spell) and then either get the rest up or decide to bail.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

And if it doesn't apply in the OC, it'll never apply anywhere with even something that might sorta maybe kinda resemble a challenge.

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses. That's +10, stacking, non-capped, non-dispellable, AC. And, once again, I am not arguing that the expertise build is the best possible use of the feats. I am just disagreeing with the idea that a mage in the OC will hit the point at which it doesn't matter if his defenses are better. If the OP wants to take expertise feats to help solo a wizard, he'll get value from them.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

(Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.)

That's a full plate build.  In other words, it actually has enough base AC to make it worth using (Improved) Expertise.

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Non-boss monsters with SR? Could you tell me which ones? There isnt definitely even one such monster in chapter 1 as Ive played chapter 1 recently. And I have really good memory, so I remeber my first OC experiences (in that time withoufh expansions) and Ive played sorcerrer, and I dont recall any monster that would resisted my spell.

More powerful undead often have it at a minimum.  In terms of Chapter 1, I'm mainly thinking of a particular encounter that would be *very* difficult to do solo, without a henchman/familar/summon, as a spellcaster going through for the first time.   It's a ritual of sorts.  PM me if you still don't know what I mean.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

At any rate I would say that the advantage of the spell penetration feats is on par with expertise. Its 100% not neccessary as the fights can be won without it. It might make few specific fights in whole OC easier, but thats it.

Also - as far as SR related, by default maximum SR that can non-monk NPC have is 32. Some high HD clerics might have more if they have the spell resistance spell, but I havent seen such NPC yet anywhere. Thus for pure caster (or almost pure, in 40lvl build 31CL is good enough), the spell resistance isnt problem at all and I would strongly advise not to take it - in the case of wizard that has plenty of feats it doesnt matter so much but sorcerer doesnt have so many feats to spare.

Except we're not talking about level 40 builds.

For example, default Balors and Balor Lords have 28 spell resistance.  If you're level 12 and run into one as a boss fight, enjoy having 75% of your spells resisted without using a Breach.  Even then, a Lesser Breach only changes that number to 60% of spells resisted.

Likewise, Skeleton Warriors and Skeleton Chieftains have 20 spell resistance.  They're like CR 7 or something, yet fighting one at level 7 would mean having 60% of your spells resisted and you don't have a Lesser Spell Breach to spare.

So in campaign builds, if you're new to playing a mage, I would *strongly* suggest you take Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

since when are cantrips unlimited? you mean this rod of cold ray? The advantage of the ranged weapon (which spells dont offer) is that they have much higher attack range. You can attack from great distance so you will have more time to prepare to cast spell before this npc approach you. Also the henchman AI will automatically attack the npc you are attacking which doesnt happen with spells where you have to wait till the npc gets close enough to your henchman would see him.

Of course with 8starting dexterity it might be hard to hit anything later in game, but for zombies in 1chapter this is excellent way how to get as many of them as possible on one place in order to blast them with burning hands.

You're underestimating the range of Ray of Frost.  It's not as far as a max range crossbow shot, but it's pretty far.  In addition, it'll actually consistently deal 2.5 average damage per round, which is considerably more than crossbow shots with pitiful AB.  Weak zombies, for example, will die in 2-3 rays which you can use unlimited times per day.

MrZork wrote...

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.).

10 base
-1 dexterity
+1 tumble
+4 haste
+3 Armor AC

That's 17 with equipment, exluding any possible dexterity items.  Shield will overwrite Deflection, Shadow Shield will overwrite Natural, boots will be Boots of Speed likely.

MrZork wrote...

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses.

If the environment is balanced around full plate wearers with shields using (Improved) Expertise, then no, the mage really wouldn't get hit less.  At least, not unless he had like 14 starting dexterity and then maxed dexterity over constitution (assuming he could also max charisma).  Even then, he'd still be be close to 10 AC behind (assuming a +5 environment).

MrZork wrote...

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.

10 base AC
5 Shadow Shield
4 Shield
4 Boots of Speed
1 Tumble
3 Armor AC
1 Mage Armor

That's 28 AC, not counting Dexterity.  He'd have to have 24 Dexterity buffed to have 35 AC, and I really don't see how 39 AC is possible.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.).

10 base
-1 dexterity
+1 tumble
+4 haste
+3 Armor AC

That's 17 with equipment, exluding any possible dexterity items.  Shield will overwrite Deflection, Shadow Shield will overwrite Natural, boots will be Boots of Speed likely.

10 base
+3 dex
+3/+5 bracers
+3/+5 cloak
+4 haste
+1 tumble
That's 24 with equipment one has from chapter 2 henchmen quests or can buy before starting any chapter 3 quests. 28 will soon be in reach with better drops (+5 rings and bracers drop in chapter 3 and one is a guaranteed quest reward) and it would be even better if the PC found a haste item besides boots (the hasted crossbows are ideal for mages, but they aren't common drops). BTW, the OP never said he was going to create this character with a dex penalty. Since he's shown no signs of min/maxing and has twice mentioned putting points into dex, I don't see 8 dex as a given.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses.

If the environment is balanced around full plate wearers with shields using (Improved) Expertise, then no, the mage really wouldn't get hit less.  At least, not unless he had like 14 starting dexterity and then maxed dexterity over constitution (assuming he could also max charisma).  Even then, he'd still be be close to 10 AC behind (assuming a +5 environment).

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.

10 base AC
5 Shadow Shield
4 Shield
4 Boots of Speed
1 Tumble
3 Armor AC
1 Mage Armor

That's 28 AC, not counting Dexterity.  He'd have to have 24 Dexterity buffed to have 35 AC, and I really don't see how 39 AC is possible.

10 base
+5 natural
+4 haste
+1 tumble
+3 armor
+4 deflection
+1 dodge
+5 dex
That's 33 with spells and +3 items, 36 with +5 drops on armor and deflection, and 39 if the player wears +3 boots of hardiness available at the base camp and casts haste instead of wearing boots of speed, or +37, as my very first NWN character going through the OC had in chapter 4 (that's my closest saved game), with dragon slippers to avoid KD.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Hello there friend]

               Wow, that makes it look more doable than I'd come to expect. What do the typical attack bonuses look like for late game monsters?

In the end, though, I went with the constitution mage (S8 D8 Co14 W14 I16 Ch15). Fits better with the image I had of an intellectual who really has no business being in this warzone.

I expect to go for pretty much the feats MagicalMaster suggested in his/her initial post, except removing Toughness and Silent Spell for (Greater) Spell Focus: Enchantment. Because those look like some fun spells. I love crowd control in games, see.

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

No, the OC isn't balanced that way.  And no, most modules aren't like that because they try to cater to a lower denominator.  Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons I really don't like (Improved) Expertise.

But, cutting to the chase, given the confines of the OC that's not tuned around decent builds/correct equipment, Improved Expertise could certainly make him get hit less.  In an environment that's actually difficult, that's not true (or rather, the difference is so marginal that it's not worth two feats).  And frankly, I'd suggest he use Defensive Casting over (Improved) Expertise.

Hello there friend wrote...

Wow, that makes it look more doable than I'd come to expect. What do the typical attack bonuses look like for late game monsters?

Completely dependent on the module/persistent world.

Hello there friend wrote...

In the end, though, I went with the constitution mage (S8 D8 Co14 W14 I16 Ch15). Fits better with the image I had of an intellectual who really has no business being in this warzone.

And that's typically the better version of the mage as well.  Plan on getting hit and having enough HP to survive (plus have damage shields).

Hello there friend wrote...

I expect to go for pretty much the feats MagicalMaster suggested in his/her initial post, except removing Toughness and Silent Spell for (Greater) Spell Focus: Enchantment. Because those look like some fun spells. I love crowd control in games, see.

I doubt you'll ever use them, especially without a henchman/summon/familar.  Sorry, but the best CC is often Evocation (Bigby Hands and stuff like Great Thunderclap).

Hello there friend wrote...

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?

Defensive buffs and direct damage spells.  Combust, Fireball/Scin Sphere, Ice Storm, Firebrand/Cone of Cold, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting/Empowered IGMS, and Maximized IGMS for spell levels 2-9 respectively.  Can throw in Fingers of Death/Wail of the Banshee for instant kills if you'd like.

Critical defensive buffs are mainly...

Stoneskin/Premonition
Improved Invisibility
Shadow Shield

Mage Armor and Shield don't hurt along with stat buffs.  And during combat with melee foes Elemental Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath are amazing.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MagicalMaster, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

No, the OC isn't balanced that way.  And no, most modules aren't like that because they try to cater to a lower denominator.  Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons I really don't like (Improved) Expertise.

But, cutting to the chase, given the confines of the OC that's not tuned around decent builds/correct equipment, Improved Expertise could certainly make him get hit less.  In an environment that's actually difficult, that's not true (or rather, the difference is so marginal that it's not worth two feats).  And frankly, I'd suggest he use Defensive Casting over (Improved) Expertise.

I tend to agree. Although, I really think that balancing against lower AC than that one is generally a good way to build most SP modules. For an action PW focused on party play, it's a fair assumption that a group of PCs should have a decent AC build to soak some mob aggression. But, in SP, if mobs at that level are hitting a fairly AC-focused build, then it becomes an exercise in frustration (or a suicide run) for people not playing tanks. Given the limitations of the game AI (even with improvements like Tony K), henchmen won't be effective enough to get, say, a PC sorcerer or even a rogue through battles like that. The tendency would be to play the whole time in divide-and-conquer mode, or kiting, or trap-set-and-lure, or whatever, knowing that even a random group of mobs could take down the party. For many people, that mode of play will be too slow and it exacerbates the tedium associated with having to rest and rebuff often because of the need to creep slowly around each map while buffs run out.

Hello there friend wrote...

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?

MM gives good spell selection advice. However, I read your question a little differently. If you were more asking what spells to use to help when you play with a familiar, henchie, or summons, I would make special note of Greater Magic Weapon and Flame Weapon, in addition to Mage Armor, Improved Invisbility, Haste, and Stoneskin for buffing your associates. The first two spells really add to an associate's firepower and the latter improve their defenses. It's also worth remembering that (assuming you play in hard core mode) that your area-of-effect damage spells will usually damage your associates if they are caught in the spell. Firebrand will become a favorite because of this and I find Slow to be a useful enemies-only debuff when you or your associates are swarmed.

Also, if you play using Tony K's Henchman AI override, you can control your familiar and henchmen (but not summons) inventories in the OC (and other modules) and give them decent gear to use. Giving your buddies items with immunity to the types of damage you are throwing around (e.g. a necklace with 20/- electrical immunity if you care casting Scintillating Sphere, etc.) is a useful improvement made possible with that override.

You can also buff familiars, summons, and henchies with potions, which are readily available in the OC (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, and Barkskin are well worth keeping on hand for this purpose).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par MrZork, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

MrZork wrote...

Given the limitations of the game AI (even with improvements like Tony K), henchmen won't be effective enough to get, say, a PC sorcerer or even a rogue through battles like that.

High level rogues tend to have some of the highest AC.  Just saying.  And no, by default (aka, without module changes), henchmen tend not to work very well.

MrZork wrote...

For many people, that mode of play will be too slow and it exacerbates the tedium associated with having to rest and rebuff often because of the need to creep slowly around each map while buffs run out.

Indeed.  Hence my hatred of (Improved) Expertise and the fact you can easily get AC gaps of over 20 in a d20 system.  Completely breaks it.

MrZork wrote...

MM gives good spell selection advice. However, I read your question a little differently.

I think you read it correctly, too.

MrZork wrote...

Firebrand will become a favorite because of this and I find Slow to be a useful enemies-only debuff when you or your associates are swarmed.

Yeah, Firebrand and IGMS will likely become your best friends.  No friendly fire.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               You could also try the old stand-by, The Melee Mage.