Trap DCs too high in the OC

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               In the OC, I have encountered some traps with a DC higher than 36. I had been told that a modified Disable Trap score of 16, along with Take 20, will be enough to disable all standard traps except epic traps. Therefore, something has gone wrong. What could cause me to encounter too-high trap DCs in the OC? How can I fix it?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               You have to have at least one level or rogue to disable any trap that has a DC of 35 or greater.  
I also do not know if the information you got on the trap DC's is correct or not.  

There may be some traps that just can not be disarmed in the conventinal way.   Could you tell us where the trap is at.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               I saved this in a TXT file.

In 2007, Cinnabar Din wrote:
I'll post the values for all traps but epic traps, which I'll post at the end).
There are 4 categories of traps (epic traps aside): Minor, Average, Strong, and Deadly. The DC (for Search, Disable, and Set) of traps varies even within the same category.
Disable Trap: to be able to disable all traps other than epic traps, you'll need a modified skill score of 16 (Take 20 gives you the rest). Add 10 if you want to recover.
Set Trap: to be able to set all but epic traps, you need a modified skill score of 25 (Take 20 gives you the rest).
Search: To be able to automatically detect all but epic traps, you need a modified skill score of 21.
Open Lock: Completely dependent on the environment/module, so I usually try to keep it maxed unless I know exactly what the DC of the hardest lock I'll encounter is.
EPIC TRAPS
Epic traps all have the same DC for detecting (43), the same for setting (65), and the same for disabling (58). When calculating your modified skill scores, don't forget the ability modifer that affects the skill, any synergy bonuses, and any Skill Focus and/or Epic Skill Focus feats.
Disable: you need a modified score of 38 to be able to disable all epic traps (Take 20 will cover the rest). Add 10 if you want to recover them as well.
Set: you need a modified score of 45 to set epic traps (Take 20 will cover the rest).
Search: you need a modified score of 42 to automatically detect all epic traps.
There's an excellent chart at the back of the Grimoire if you need more info.

My build had 4 levels of Fighter, and the rest was all Rogue. I don't remember where the traps were. I encountered a couple DC 37 traps, so the next time I leveled up, I diverted another point to Disable Trap so I could handle DC 37 traps, but then I encountered a couple DC 38 traps. I think the highest I saw was DC 39, but I'm not sure I remember correctly.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

                In the OC there are some traps and locks that have DC's higher than what you've posted. I'm sure that was done on purpose. There are items in the game that will boost your characters ability to handle locks and traps, and if you want to be able to handle them you'll have to collect and use those items. Besides the equipment that you can put on to boost your abilities, there are also thieves tools that go from +1 to +10 for handling the locks, and there are scrolls of "find traps" that you can find/buy to take care of the traps. With rogue levels, you should have enough points in UMD to use the scrolls. Having your characters lock and trap skills maxed won't always be enough. You'll need the items, equipment, and scrolls as well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 In the OC there are some traps and locks that have DC's higher than what you've posted. I'm sure that was done on purpose. There are items in the game that will boost your characters ability to handle locks and traps, and if you want to be able to handle them you'll have to collect and use those items. Besides the equipment that you can put on to boost your abilities, there are also thieves tools that go from +1 to +10 for handling the locks, and there are scrolls of "find traps" that you can find/buy to take care of the traps. With rogue levels, you should have enough points in UMD to use the scrolls. Having your characters lock and trap skills maxed won't always be enough. You'll need the items, equipment, and scrolls as well.

The locks in the 99DC range have nothing behind them.  They are simply there so you cannot open the door.  The remaining locks are usually well within a rogue's reach without thieves' tools.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               There was a farmhouse in Port Llast where I am pretty sure the door to go upstairs was DC 99, but it was bashable. As I recall, there was nothing special in the chests and so on upstairs.

And, while the rules of thumb quoted above may reflect the default settings for traps, it is very easy for the module builder to set the DCs to whatever he wants (up to something like 250). I don't recall what the highest settings are in the OC, but it's likely one would have to use equipment to disarm all the traps and open all the locks, even with the appropriate skills maxed.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

MrZork wrote...
And, while the rules of thumb quoted above may reflect the default settings for traps, it is very easy for the module builder to set the DCs to whatever he wants (up to something like 250).

The OC does not stray far from the guideline.  After completing the prelude with set trap and disable trap maxed (assuming 14 Int and Dex) you can take on DC 30 when not in combat, and you are only level 3 then.

As far as 250, the best disarming player character build (wizard/rogue) with the most skill related feats and intelligence increases possible (as well as +12 int bonus and +50 disable trap bonus) can only disarm DC 148 and lower.  DCs above 127 will display as if they looped over 7 bits (thus DC 128 would display as DC 0), though the success and failure remembers the full value.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

               

WhiZard wrote...
The OC does not stray far from the guideline.  After completing the prelude with set trap and disable trap maxed (assuming 14 Int and Dex) you can take on DC 30 when not in combat, and you are only level 3 then.

I've played through the OC a couple of times this last year, as a rogue, and I distinctly remember having to use equipment/potions/thieves tools, etc. to handle some of the traps and locks in each chapter (not in the Prelude, though). I kept all the trap and lock skills maxed out and still needed those resources occasionally. They may not have strayed "far" from the guidelines, but they definitely strayed. Enough to make a dedicated trap and lock character have to use help to handle some of them.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               I wonder if it looks at your Disable trap skill and adjusts the difficulty on those few locks to be just out of reach.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lightfoot8]

               In short what Cinnabar Din wrote looks like a guide for standard Traps stright from the OC blueprints.  Just because all traps in the OC do not conform to the Blueprints do not mean that they are bugs.   When the OC was written the instances of the Blue Prints where customized to what the builder wanted them to do.    So sorry but what you are encountering is, simply,  not a bug.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               It's not a bug, but it does negate the advice to not maximize the Disarm Trap skill. I am glad to know that I don't have a corrupted install of NWN.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Just a quick note, since I have recently replayed parts of the OC, there are DC 45 traps in chapter 4 and even (at least) one DC 39 trap in 2E (Luskan). Most rogues will need magical help with those...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

MrZork wrote...
Just a quick note, since I have recently replayed parts of the OC, there are DC 45 traps in chapter 4 and even (at least) one DC 39 trap in 2E (Luskan). Most rogues will need magical help with those...

How many of those elevated DC traps were on the ground, MrZ?

For containers, a few shots with elemental ammo is sufficient to resolve the DC issue, presuming they have been set as bashable.  A rogue with even a little UMD can just buy a few Find Traps scrolls for such eventualities though it's entirely possible Find Traps was introduced after the original OC was released (OC was never rebalanced for new expansion spells).

Rings of clear thought can boost it another 6 ranks.  Figure a typical level 18 rogue multiclass would have 21 + skill focus (+3) + 6 (INT cap) + Take 20 = 50 for the DT skill check, but you'd need to commit to the focus and a decent base INT to do it with those rings.  So use [50 - clvl] for maximum possible DT DC success level.  Fox's Cunning can also help reach the ability cap.  In this case, I am intentionally ignoring the synergy which can make exalted levels even easier to achieve and do not count toward the skill cap (not really an issue with the OC, however.)

Another way would be via something like a cleric 15/rogue 3 via Divine trickery which would add another 8 points to Disable Trap to succeed against even epic traps (i.e. default disarm DC 58) if they were placed into the OC.  A bard/rogue is still another way to boost DT although not as high as the cleric version.  A maximized build can reduce or eliminate the need for magical skill boosts.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 30 novembre 2011 - 03:26 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               For sure, there are ways around all the traps in the OC, and the ones I was thinking of are trapped chests, subject to ranged damage via bashing, spells, etc. I was just noting that there are some higher DC traps in the OC and that the guide posted earlier in the thread that noted, "Disable Trap: to be able to disable all traps other than epic traps, you'll need a modified skill score of 16 (Take 20 gives you the rest)." isn't quite so straightforward because there are traps with DCs higher than 36.

BTW, playing on hard core or higher, a rogue wanting to use Find Traps scrolls would still need a modified UMD skill high enough to beat a DC 28 skill check (and there is no take 20 on those checks). (A multiclassed UMDer with arcane caster ranks can skip the check, but that character would have access to the scrolls without UMD.) As you note, though, it doesn't really matter as there aren't any scrolls for that spell to be bought (or found) in the OC.

FWIW, raising INT by +12 is possible via items and spells in the OC (by chapter 3, one has access to two +3 rings and a +2 helmet combined with Fox's Cunning and a 50-50 dice roll). But, one of the rings doesn't really count, since it doesn't give as much of a disable traps boost as Tomi's ring. Assuming only one ring, the available ability boost is +7 to +10 INT.

What really makes these traps disarmable, in terms of magic, are a reliable +3 ability modifier from INT, +2 from Tomi's ring, possibly +2 from gloves that can drop as random loot and are definitely somewhere in chapter 3, and - the 800 pound gorilla of OC trap disarmament - +6 from Amulet of the Master. Taken together, an INT 14 character can reliably disarm traps of DC 38 + highest rogue (or assassin) level, assuming he maxes Disable Trap skill, and traps of DC 40 + highest rogue level if he has at least 5 points in Set Trap. And, another +3 possible from skill focus, though I have never played a rogue character with enough feats to spend one on that.


Out of curiosity, I am wondering if (primary) rogues typically make it to level 18 in the OC (especially before entering the Source Stone)? I typically play wizard characters who don't need associates to help out after chapter one (and, even then, a familiar is enough help). But, never having played a primarily rogue character through the OC, would a rogue tend to take along a henchie for tanking in order to get better opportunities for sneak attacks and to deal with undead? I have found that the XP drain from associates can add up in the OC, since many fights (and all boss fights?) don't scale to party size. (I had a painful experience with a wizard who maintained a party including a familiar, Sharwyn, and a summons throughout most of the OC, and - even doing all subquests - only got to level 17 when she killed Morag!)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               If it helps anything, here's the build I was playing, soloing all the way. I had to divert points that would have gone to other skills, mostly from Persuade, to boost Disable Trap higher than planned here.

Level 20 Rough and Ready Rogue (Rogue 16 / Fighter 4)
Human, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 20, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 16 (21)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 10

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Rogue(1): Toughness, Dodge
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Fighter(1): Blind Fight, Weapon Focus
04: Rogue(3): STR+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(2): Power Attack
06: Rogue(4): Cleave
07: Rogue(5)
08: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Rogue(6): Mobility
10: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(: STR+1, Spring Attack, (STR=19)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
15: Rogue(11): Great Cleave
16: Rogue(12): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
18: Rogue(14): Improved Critical
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): STR+1, Opportunist, (STR=21)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 196
Skillpoints: 229
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 11/5/13
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +3
BAB: 16
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 18 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/26
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 12(16), Discipline 13(18), Heal 23(22), Listen 23(22), Lore 17(19), Open Lock 23(25), Persuade 22(22), Search 19(21), Set Trap 21(25), Spellcraft 8(10), Tumble 20(22), UMD 20(20)

01: Disable Trap(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(4)
02: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(6)
03: Discipline(6), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(2)
04: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2)
05: Discipline(2), Lore(1), Save(2)
06: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2)
07: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5)
08: Discipline(3), Lore(1), Save(1)
09: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2)
10: Discipline(2), Save(3)
11: Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), UMD(4)
12: Heal(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
13: Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(1)
14: Heal(6), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
15: Heal(6), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
16: Heal(6), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
17: Heal(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5)
18: Heal(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Set Trap(7)
19: Heal(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Set Trap(7)
20: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(7), Open Lock(1), Set Trap(1)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Empyre65, 01 décembre 2011 - 12:41 .