Author Topic: Aribeth's Fate?  (Read 1082 times)

Legacy_Vipre

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 08:58:48 pm »


               Whether believed to be deserving of death or not death isn't always justice. Although as pointed out who could expect justice when the ruler bows to the whims of mobs, "The devil made me do it" is a valid defense when everyone in the court knows for fact the devil is real.



Had Head Gaoler Alaefin hypothetically survived his encounter with the the Intellect Devourer nothing he did before or during the prison break would be his responsibility. Aribeth was no different except that the creature wasn't physically in her head.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Poecile

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 05:18:21 pm »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

OMG,! The community finally drew Poecile into an OC thread.  "Lovely, lovely Aribeth" has been resurrected!

It was the Aribeth's comment

"His (i.e. Fenthick's) blood is on their (i.e. the Neverwinter mob's) hands. We are all guilty here, and we are all deserving of death."
that seemed to indicate her resignation of a blood resolution to the situation.  At that point, she seems to have regained her morality enough to recognize her fate.



  Heh'Posted, it hasn't been resurrected just yet HipMaestro.

  I forgot to post another quote from Maugrim's Journal...

From Maugrim's Journal--
"Desther is dead, but Morag has promised me a far greater ally - the Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande herself! My Queen speaks to the young paladin through her dreams, feeding her hatred and bending her to our will! Soon she will be ours!"
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bard Simpson

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2010, 01:07:02 am »


               Maugrim and Morag, feh! My good, swashbuckling rogue showed them a thing or two. In the end, Aribeth turned her back on them; I only wish my character could have spirited her away from the Jewel of Reproach (oh, I meant Jewel of the North '<img'>).
               
               

               
            

Legacy_C Writer

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2010, 12:38:43 pm »


               I did in fact feel like saving Aribeth the first time I played; I just hadn't invested in the persuade skill. Due to the conversation lines that Poecile has quoted, I viewed saving Aribeth as a good act (and would have viewed preventing an execution of also being good, if also chaotic) and I wanted to know what was going to happen to an important character. Besides, I've always hated Lord Nasher, especially since I've completed NWN2 where he makes an unfortunate return, which is why I would have liked to have been able to influence his decision instead of simply not knowing.



The way I see it, if you are playing on the harder mode and are dominated into attacking your followers, does that make you evil? No. And from what I've heard in both the game and this thread, Aribeth was under Morag's power.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_the.gray.fox

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2010, 03:49:00 pm »


               Hello.
Can I contribute with my thoughts on Aribeth?

Aribeth had a weak will.

Morag began "working" on her with dreams.
Aribeth could still think and act on her own at the time.
The loss of Fenthick was crippling to her, but still Aribeth could make her own decisions.

She somehow felt something was wrong with her.
But she did not seek help.
And she did not try to resist the "urge" to exact vengeance.

She sealed her own destiny with her own hands.
She was "dead" the moment she gave up her paladinhood to ally with the lizards.

That act led to the invasion of Neverwinter, the city she swore to protect with her life, and to the loss of many innocents.
There could be no way to avert her fate. A whole city wanted her dead.
Even Lord Nasher, wise and beloved ruler, could not oppose the will of the masses.
How could the lone hero (you) have any right to do it?
Do not forget that Lord Nasher himself was a hero to the city.
Aribeth too was a heroine to the city. But none of this had a weight in the matter.


I think Aribeth was the best character in all NWN campaigns.
She had personality, charisma, a past, and troubles to deal with.

She was the shining example of what a Paladin is.
But she demonstrated she could not handle the pressure.

She was idolized by many, yet intimately she was frail and weak.
Granted, the death of Fenthick was plain unjust. Aribeth was _right_ to feel anger.
Still, she acted in the wrong way. Her anger destabilized her.
And prisoner of her own fame, she could not expose the truth by asking for help.
(these bits of her personality are easier to understand in HOTU)

Victim of *her own* weakness.
That same weakness who then led her to the willful assault of Neverwinter.

She could not be saved. She did too much Wrong, beyond any chance of salvation.

I believe the scripters made an excellent job in shaping her tragedy.
My only complain is that her fate (after Morag death) was not recount with sufficient depth.
Felt almost like a rushed ending of the campaign.


-fox
               
               

               


                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Poecile

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 04:46:13 pm »


               

the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
Can I contribute with my thoughts on Aribeth?

Aribeth had a weak will.

Morag began "working" on her with dreams.
Aribeth could still think and act on her own at the time.
The loss of Fenthick was crippling to her, but still Aribeth could make her own decisions.

She somehow felt something was wrong with her.
But she did not seek help.
And she did not try to resist the "urge" to exact vengeance.
-fox


  Well, you are wrong gray.fox.  Aribeth DID seek help.  She went to Port Llast and she sought answers from Tyr himself, as Tyr had previously interacted with Aribeth during her dreams while she rehabilitated in the Ilmateri monastery.  That interaction led her to become a Paladin in Neverwinter, in the Hall of Justice.

  And she thought she had received the answer from Tyr, he turned his back on her, made her feel guilty for questioning justice and questioning Fenthick's execution, but it was MORAG in the guise of Tyr.  Morag, you know, the one who had the power to overrun Helm's Hold, and to snatch a temple to Cyric from his priest through Gulnan the Yuan-Ti, a refresher:

  Crumpled Note in Gulnan, the Yuan-Ti's, quarters-

"This note is disjointed and sloppy, as though the author wrote it after suddenly waking from a deep sleep.

Excerpt:
"I have gained much since the Academy was attacked. I did not see who freed me, and I don't care. Strength has come to me strangely... quickly. There is definitely some greater power at work in Neverwinter, and it favors me this day. I have seen it in the dreams... I see the eye... I don't know what it means, but I know this: if the Neverwintans want me for their cure they can carve the contribution from my corpse! So sayeth Gulnan!"

When asked 'what god Gulnan makes sacrifices to', Jared the servant of Cyric-

"What indeed! Not the god of her pathetic people, whatever name such a whelp goes by. Cyric would not have allowed that defeat! She cheats! She's got some power on her side! One that dares ignore my true calling! One that abuses the focus I created!"

Morag's power, derived from the thousands of dead plague victims, was trickled to Gulnan where the lone Yuan-Ti was able to usurp the cult of Cyric in the Beggar's Nest. Yet another example of Morag's capability.

Gulnan's quote-
"You cannot deny that the scales will rule! See the power I am granted?! It is incredible, and beyond even Merrshaulk!" (The Yuan-Ti deity).

Here's another copy&paste post I wrote, but it fits here:

I think the story works the angle where a Paladin just might not be able to 'stay afloat'. That is one reason why I think highly of the character and story. It is a perfect storm where everything 'conspires' to facilitate Aribeth's eventual predicament.

She was left for dead in a snow storm, while hunting and tracking orcs. Someone, presumably Tyr per Aribeth's description, rescued Aribeth from certain death and brought her to the Ilmateri Monastery just outside Silverymoon.

While she had been rehabilitating, Tyr would 'counsel' Aribeth on the ways of Justice, through or in her dreams. This led her on to Neverwinter.

Morag had ample power to contend with various deities in Neverwinter; e.g. Helm, Cyric, Tyr.

Aribeth was grief stricken and she sought answers from Tyr and little did she know, Morag delivered them to her via her nightly torments. She felt like she was being punished by Tyr because of her feelings of grief and doubt.

It wasn't that she didn't beseech or call on Tyr for support, as some people have asserted, she did call on Tyr.

Everything and everyone she believed in, e.g. Nasher, Fenthick, the citizens of Neverwinter, Justice and even Tyr (though it was Morag) all led her to being an extremely vulnerable victim for Morag to ply and manipulate.

Morag had Aribeth right where she wanted her, just as she had planned.

Maugrim's Diary-

"Desther is dead, but Morag has promised me a far greater ally - the Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande herself! My Queen speaks to the young paladin through her dreams, feeding her hatred and bending her to our will! Soon she will be ours!"

Haedraline-

"The one you call Aribeth has fallen under Morag's spell. Some terrible fate left her vulnerable to Morag's corrupting evil. My Queen touched her mind through her dreams, feeding a dark and festering hatred until it consumed all else. Aribeth is a slave to Morag's evil now."

 If Aribeth had a weak will, as you say, it was because Morag was lowering it with her magics.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_the.gray.fox

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2010, 05:46:15 pm »


               Hello.
I disagree.


Why not choose Lord Nasher, then?
Nasher was infected by the plague.
Aribeth was not.
Nasher was not influenced by Morag.
Aribeth was.

How do you explain this?

Nasher would have been the preferred target, being the ruler.
Aribeth was just a servant. A symbol, a VIP, a strong warrior, but still a servant.
Moreover it was Aribeth who actively worked against the plague.
Was not for her trusting in you (the hero), the story would have steered in quite a different direction.
Maybe Neverwinter would have been wiped out by plague alone.

Morag *chose* Aribeth because she was the weakest target.
Dester (or his servants, no matter) was able to defy Nasher and plague him.
Why could not he do the same with Aribeth, who certainly was a more accessible target (aside from being a valuable asset in the defense of the city)?

You see, from a strategic point of view, Aribeth was among the targets to take out A.S.A.P.
It makes no sense that she was spared.

Unless... we consider that Morag _wanted_ her.
Aribeth weak will made her easy prey of Morag influence.
The execution of Fenthick made it all the more easier.

As for the vaunted superpowers of Morag, I think you interpreted them in the wrong way.
The Yuan-Ti mentioned some external aid. And she quite liked it.
She did not even care to know _who/what_ was behind this help.
Yuan-Tis are evil by nature. In this sense, Morag had the way paved.
Morag did not need to control the Yuan-Ti. All Morag wanted was for the Yuan-Ti to bring chaos and disarray from within the city.
And what else would you expect from an Evil being able to roam free, and boosted by some power?

Dester too was evil. And Maugrim as well.
They needed not to be controlled by some spell.
They were favored by an Evil greater power, and they _embraced_ it.

Aribeth was vulnerable. And she needed a push.
But eventually she embraced this Evil as well.
She was no puppet. She acted on her own volition, and she did it to exact her revenge.
She knew Morag was Evil. She did not care. Aribeth wanted vengeance. Morag promised vengeance.
Aribeth wanted it, Morag granted it.
Aribeth mind was driven by 1 single purpose: to see Neverwinter drowned in its blood.
She could accept any fate thereafter, so as long as her wish was satisfied.
Morag took advantage of it.

Thus, Morag acquired her new ally.
All Morag did was to subtly "push" Aribeth closer and closer to the abyss.
But ultimately it was Aribeths choice to throw herself in.


-fox


/edit

My claim is further supported by what Aribeth says in the HotU campaign.
Do you remember why Aribeth exiles herself in that frigid cave?
She does it after Mephistopheles reveals to everyone that, deep in her heart, Aribeth did NOT care about Fenthick.

Hell, this woman moved war to her own town, betrayed every single soul in it, caused a bloodbath of such a proportion... and she did it out of vengeance for the death of her beloved... which she did not love at all???
This is the major shame that leads Aribeth to self-confinement in HotU.
Her personality is shattered by the unbearable truth.

She has built most of her life on a pile of lies.
And when she realizes it...

As I said, Aribeth was victim of her own weakness.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par the.gray.fox, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Poecile

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2010, 09:47:54 pm »


               

the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
I disagree.





   The power that the Yuan-Ti and Desther and Maugrim wielded came from the Source Stone and MORAG, the leader of the Old Ones who had been "hibernating" within its sanctuary waiting for the time someone would unleash its power through the reading of an ancient scroll that would enable it to strengthen its power through the death of thousands who had been afflicted with its "Wailing Death Spell/Curse/Whatever"

  Morag lent her power to Maugrim and Desther to begin her campaign against the Sword Coast.  Why Desther, then?  Why not Nasher?  I don't know.  

  Anyhow, the ENTIRE population of Helm's Hold was unable to detect the False Helmites who happened to infiltrate its very core.  Helm!

  The Hall of Justice and all of its workers were unable to detect or unmask the False Helmite intrusion...  Morag wielded great power, over this mass of people, to keep the False Helmites from being detected!

 She gave the Yuan-Ti support to overthrow the entire cult of Cyric!, read that again!,  to acquire the focus that would allow them to create an army of undead to help them in their efforts against Neverwinter.  The priest even reveals that the Yuan-Ti could not achieve such success without a power greater than her Yuan-Ti's deities, this power is from MORAG.

  Now, we get to Aribeth...  

  She went for help, she sought Tyr and she got Morag...  She felt she was being punished by Tyr for having her doubts about Justice and Fenthick's execution, she saw Tyr turn his back on her and she felt abandoned, where should she go now, to the Hall of Justice, the main center of Tyr's influence in Neverwinter??...  And, anyway, she does seek help, she tells the PC about her torment.   

  When the PC finds out about Fenthick giving the Ward Stones to Desther, we can forewarn Nasher and he blows us off saying it is of no concern.  But now, when we have concern about Aribeth, we don't have an option to tell Aarin to gather some clerics to help her through...  Game mechanics prevent us from aiding Aribeth at the time she sought help from us.

  And Aribeth alone against the mighty power of Morag when Aribeth doesn't even know or recognize her foe...  Do you really expect her to withstand that torment.  And yet, she does!  It takes several nights of this terror before she finally succumbs to Morag's power.   I can just hear Morag's whispers. 

  "You've seen how Justice failed, you've seen Tyr turn his back on you, now it is time for you to carry the mantle of Justice and dispense it upon the citizenry who deserve to feel its wrath. etc."  Combine that with the corrupting magics that we've seen work on Master Ford and the citizenry as well, then you can't possibly believe that Aribeth would be able to withstand the ordeal.

 Morag knew Aribeth would be in a weakened state and she knew they could ply her with the 'righteous cause' angle because of favorable circumstances for the Old Ones, and they knew she had great charisma as a leader, compared to Nasher and that she was in a better state of health.  Aribeth didn't have a chance against Morag, at that time.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2010, 11:22:23 pm »


               Okay, Poecile... here is my question:

Is it mandatory for a paladin to align with a deity?

I mean, once you've lost your faith wouldn't it make the most sense to become a nomadic paladin of some sort?  Or is a paladin unable to discern right-from-wrong,  good-from-evil, truth-from-lies, etc... without the counsel of prayer?

It seems to me the main mistake Aribeth made was in choosing another power to pledge her allegiance.  She would have done better for all concerned had she retired into the wild until she came to grips with her station in life.  Somehow, I think Morag was able to take easy advantage of the situation due to this character trait.  Unless, of course, being a paladin mandates some sort of affiliation with some power/deity.  In that case only, she was trapped.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Poecile

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2010, 02:56:37 am »


               

HipMaestro wrote...

Okay, Poecile... here is my question:

Is it mandatory for a paladin to align with a deity?

I mean, once you've lost your faith wouldn't it make the most sense to become a nomadic paladin of some sort?  Or is a paladin unable to discern right-from-wrong,  good-from-evil, truth-from-lies, etc... without the counsel of prayer?

It seems to me the main mistake Aribeth made was in choosing another power to pledge her allegiance.  She would have done better for all concerned had she retired into the wild until she came to grips with her station in life.  Somehow, I think Morag was able to take easy advantage of the situation due to this character trait.  Unless, of course, being a paladin mandates some sort of affiliation with some power/deity.  In that case only, she was trapped.


  That's an interesting way to look at it, HipMaestro. 
From here - Deities of Faerun

"It is well known in Faerûn that those who die without a patron deity to send a servant to collect their souls from the Fugue Plane at their death will spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells and infernos of devils and demons."

 
  And, especially for Paladins, you'd need to have a patron deity, otherwise you'd no longer be a Paladin, as far as I know.  Aribeth's path was at a pivotal point when she was sent off to Port Llast.  In her mind, she probably thought it would be best to distance herself from the city and Lord Nasher to allow herself an opportunity to 'cool down' and meditate and seek counsel, which she did.

  It goes back to her childhood, her village was sacked by a band of orcs, during which, her family was slaughtered...  She resigned herself to death right then and there, and it was her life's devotion to bring vengeance upon orc-kind, until she take her last breath, which she almost did when she was caught in a blizzard up in the Spine of the North Mountain range.

  Tyr, or a representative of Tyr, rescued Aribeth from certain death and brought her to the monastery near Silverymoon.  She was rehabilitated and she was counseled in the ways of Justice over Vengeance, so her new life was profoundly shaped by Tyr himself, as she had direct interaction with the deity during her dream state, or so we're led to assume. 

  It is unusual for an elf to garner the attention of a human deity in this manner, so it is an intriguing relationship.  It shows the impact that Tyr had on Aribeth, that she would become his Paladin and head off to Neverwinter...

  Anyway, back to Aribeth in Port Llast, she sought counsel directly from Tyr himself, she wanted to know if her feelings about Fenthick's execution were justified, if her anger at the citizens was justified.  I think we all can agree that her feelings were justified.  

 So, now, Morag comes as Tyr and pretty much spits at her feet.  To me, that was the last straw.  This revered deity, the one who saved her from death is now abandoning her over something so sensible as her feelings of doubt, her feelings that Justice failed Fenthick and it might fail her and who knows who else.   And not just abandonment, she feels that he is the one responsible for the 'punishing' night terrors.

  Now, if we remove Morag's corrupting magics, Aribeth just might have done as you said.  She might have gone back to her elven life and ways in the woods, a lone ranger of sorts...  She might have felt that her whole life had been a sham, from the moment she'd been rescued back in the blizzard.

 But, we can't ignore Morag and her tamperings, and we know what Morag was capable of doing, just reread the Master Ford and Esmerelda lines for the subtle, seductive powers of the Source Stone. 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_C Writer

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2010, 08:06:02 am »


               
Quote
the.gray.fox wrote...

Hello.
I disagree.


Why not choose Lord Nasher, then?
Nasher was infected by the plague.
Aribeth was not.
Nasher was not influenced by Morag.
Aribeth was.

How do you explain this?


It isn't about the plague though. Morag didn't choose Aribeth because she was genuinly weak, but because she had been traumitised by Fenthick's death (which was perfect for her as she would want help). Also, Nasher was probably too old to be of much use to Morag, since Aribeth would no doubt have been more capable in combat.[/QUOTE]

Quote
the.gray.fox wrote...Aribeth was vulnerable. And she needed a push.
But eventually she embraced this Evil as well.
She was no puppet. She acted on her own volition, and she did it to exact her revenge.
She knew Morag was Evil. She did not care. Aribeth wanted vengeance. Morag promised vengeance.
Aribeth wanted it, Morag granted it.
Aribeth mind was driven by 1 single purpose: to see Neverwinter drowned in its blood.
She could accept any fate thereafter, so as long as her wish was satisfied.
Morag took advantage of it.


If Aribeth embraced evil, then why did she want to stop the plague and find the cult? Why did she regret her reactions once you beat her down and successfully talked to her in order to look past Morag's spell?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_The RealArchAngel

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2010, 12:58:59 am »


               Never cared for Neverwinter as my PCs always seem to get in trouble there
Stumbling into Neverwinter  then getting trapped in it cause of a plague is just the latest example...lol

Aribeth was was executed if your PC  offered her a chance to surrender and she took it,plain and simple

It is what causes your PC to leave Neverwinter Disgusted with Nasher and the city (Linu? mentions this in HOTU) which is why you need to make a new character for SOU

As far as Aribeth's action her god was the god of Justice and there was no justice in tNeverwinter executing a innocent man for association...if anything she temporarily became a "Heritic Blackgaurd" in trying to punnish Neverwinter for their sin of Injustice under Morgue influsence
               
               

               


                     Modifié par The RealArchAngel, 01 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Nerevar-as

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2010, 05:43:35 pm »


               For me Aribeth´s fate was a WTF. Her fianceé is executed as a traitor for being too anive and trusting just so Nasher can save face, then she has a crysis of faith that allows Morag to brainwash/mindrape her, and after I managed to bring her back not only does Nasher execute her (something my OC would have killed him for), but her soul ends in hell? Tyr is a jerkass of a god indeed. Hope he got killed in one of those retcons the FR go every other year.



Or was it an homage to the Dark Phoenix saga? let´s kill a character because we can´t allow a mass murderer despite being (temporarily) corrupted by outside forces.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Poecile

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2010, 05:20:15 pm »


               

Nerevar-as wrote...

For me Aribeth´s fate was a WTF. Her fianceé is executed as a traitor for being too anive and trusting just so Nasher can save face, then she has a crysis of faith that allows Morag to brainwash/mindrape her, and after I managed to bring her back not only does Nasher execute her (something my OC would have killed him for), but her soul ends in hell? Tyr is a jerkass of a god indeed. Hope he got killed in one of those retcons the FR go every other year.

Or was it an homage to the Dark Phoenix saga? let´s kill a character because we can´t allow a mass murderer despite being (temporarily) corrupted by outside forces.



  Yeah, that's pretty much how HotU ruined it. 

  In order for Bioware to continue with Aribeth's story, they had to cater to those characters who killed her in Maugrim's estate. 

 They couldn't continue the story from where I left off, with a hopeful Aribeth in Castle Never's dungeon and with a somewhat remorseful Lord Nasher.

  In HotU they had to follow the path where she died, for all characters, else they rewrite and ruin the story for many, e.g. 'whatta ya mean her life was spared?  I killed the *** in Maugrim's estate!" (Don't want to rile up that crowd now, do we?)

  They left the backstory vague, but let it be known that she died in some fashion.  But if you're going to be a stickler for story, she isn't the same character in HotU as she was in NWN.  Her history is different and he race is different.  I prefer to omit HotU from any discussion of Aribeth's fate, it isn't justified. '<img'> 
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Poecile, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Nerevar-as

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Aribeth's Fate?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2010, 07:20:15 pm »


               

Poecile wrote...

  They left the backstory vague, but let it be known that she died in some fashion.  But if you're going to be a stickler for story, she isn't the same character in HotU as she was in NWN.  Her history is different and he race is different.  I prefer to omit HotU from any discussion of Aribeth's fate, it isn't justified. '<img'> 


I can see Nasher having her killed, but having her soul in hell has no excuse, they simply didn´t think it through when the game was written. Tyr was LG I think, and she was brainwashed.
We can always retcon it to the part of her soul that got corrupted under the spell, or something like that.

I think the PC in HotU should have been the OC one, it has the former companions after all. Back then there was no feeling of friendship between characters, but even then it felt disconnected.