Foundation

[Legacy_henesua]

               Perhaps utmost simplicity will help:

NWNX is unnecessary for running a PW

It may be necessary for features we want to put in the core. If this is true I will consider working on a core PW framework that depends on it.

If not it should only be the first module that can be added on to the foundation.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Highv Priest]

               Oh yea I hear you there, but having more developer tools is sooooo nice. Honestly I think BioWare could of made a cash-cow off this game by simply selling improvements to toolset. You may not be willing to buy them, but I would have. I like being able to build things without taking sacrifices and with them selling enough developer tools it would of become so simple to do that ANYONE could create their own worlds and it would of just went up from there. Instead of now where only people with adequate talent can effectively script the advanced systems usually needed to run an effective persistent world. The possibilities of things they could of done for money is amazing. As a programming major I can tell you that creating events isn't hard and creating an event for knockdown would of been cheap and easy for someone using the source code and I would of paid for it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I agree that it would've been cool if Bioware worked out it's business model in a way to extend the period in which they could support this game. But to be honest I think some perspective is needed here. NWN is a PITA to work with. I'm interested in using it for what it is good for rather than investing my all into making it do things it doesn't do well like capture knockdown events or other combat oriented details.

The most exciting things for me with NWN relate to the ease at which one can create an immersive experience for a player. Because of this I very much would like to create a simple framework which enables world hopping amongst a collection of independent servers. And I want to see all the visions described by ambitious dreamers come to life. I'd really like to see another Border Kingdoms style PW whether that be my own Arnheim or someone else's project.

Which brings me back to my purpose here.

A simple foundation for PW builders to rapidly make new worlds and link them together.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I've been thinking about core components for the module side of this. Here are some of the pieces which I think have significant value:

• DMFI. - Specifically the Chat Hooking. Although I am willing to look at ShadowM's work as well.
• The Community Patch. - Specifically the Spell System
• The Krit's Skin include - for data that travels with the PC from one world to the next.
• The Krit's Dynamic Deities and Pantheons
• Knat's NBDE  - This would be a backup for those who aren't able to use NWNX.
• An improved or new spawn system. I really like NESS, but am continuously improving it as I find problems with AI integration and some of its functions. In general I find that a spawn system needs to be integrated well with AI.
• A new crafting system. CNR is great, but extremely resource heavy and can be difficult to manage for inexperienced builders

I'm just throwing these out there for discussion. The top two I figured might be controversial so I wanted to raise that now. ShaDoOoW's spell system and the DMFI chat system are things which need to be considered at the beginning because they are fundamentally integrated with the module.

So please lets discuss.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <shaping a tenon...>

The more we can abstract the framework, the less controversial it will be. Basically, each of those sub-systems can be abstracted out to support configurable input.

Specifically, the chat hooks, spell hooks, and AI hooks.

No one *has* to accept the particular (default) functions included in there, as long as we move what we can into 2DAs, includes, whatever.

And to that list above I strongly recommend Tony's AI and Axe Murderer's death system or something equivalent.
Edit: and I really like ShadoOow's simple AI for horde creatures. :-)

I agree about NESS, too.

And a race/sub-race framework that will integrate with inter-server translation.

<...and its mortise>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 09 février 2013 - 07:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               The Community Patch is a take it or leave it proposition.

The DMFI chat hooking is arguably the same.

The long and short of it is that I'm not excited about committing to rewriting all of these systems so that they work efficiently and effectively as a self contained package. Much of this stuff I'd like to bury in the module itself.


-- And to clear things up about what I am thinking about this for the first release --

Worse is Better is my guide here. I don't have another year to dedicate to creating this. This needs to be ready in a short amount of time.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 09 février 2013 - 07:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               I agree about not wanting to bog yourself down re-scripting already serviceable things, at least not right out of the gate. That's what slowed S&S down so much. Some quick edits can make the DMFI and other packages cooperate with a plugin framework, even if they're not designed around the plugin architecture. You can always go back later and replace it with a proper version.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_T0r0]

               Probably a dumb question but I'm not a builder at all. How is different from say, Olanders or Vuldricks systems ?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               glad to hear from you, T0r0.

Well right now this is just vaporware. But the idea is that this will be designed to work for a constellation of PW worlds. The most important thing to get working will be translation of character files as they move from one world to another.

Also, I don't mean any disrespect to Olander and Vuldrick, but I never liked their all in one super sized base mods. The idea here will be to make something simple, efficient, and extendable. My goal is to strip down the base module to its essence: basically a bunch of module events, a starting area that processes your character and hops it to the rest of the module, and a spellhook.

Also different in this case will be how the custom content is handled. I'd like to create a common baseline of character abilities that would be shared by every PW. Skills come to mind. And setting up how custom feats are indexed will be important too. Also familiars and companions will need to be set up to work across multiple servers. I think my work on innocuous familiars would come in handy there.

So anyway, I'm just rambling off the top of my head. The main idea is that this project will need to enable multiple PWs to be compatible with one another and thus linkable. And the it needs to be as flavor agnostic as possible so that the builders of each PW have the freedom to do as they please without having to coordinate XP rates, subraces and so on.

Before we actually get to work on getting the project out we'll need to solve character translation as this will determine how much freedom each PW will be allowed. For example - will skills need to be the same in each server?  Will we need to have a uniform subrace engine, and force the main races to be "vanilla". This matters to me since I heavily customized this stuff for Arnheim away from Vanilla NWN.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               borrowing this amusing mechanism completely from RK '>
<digs through pockets...>

A very interesting idea.

The PW I've been working on is too far along, I fear, for inclusion to something like this.  While I started this project on the basis that myself and possibly my kid and friends might be the only ones to ever see it, I planned to host it in hopes of traffic.  I was very disheartened when GameSpy dropped NWN.

With that in mind, if the Foundation ever makes a mod with doors to various servers, I hope it would include placeables with information about other existing servers.  In my mind, I see us universally advertising for players to join that mod to peruse what is online, and interact there - even if you had to log out and then reconnect to the server of your choice manually (in the case of it not being a server your PC could be translated to).

I don't have any know-how in CC creation, databases, or programming past basic scripting in NWN to offer, but I do know a number of active NWN players that I could direct to that module, if and when it exists.

<...finds little to offer>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <nodding in complete justification...>

Suggestions, concerns and questions all help to shape this baby.

The more people who think this is a "good idea, but too late for...", the more I think about how to include them in beneficiaries of Foundation.

Right now I'm thinking of a prefab teaser you can add to your legacy world and customize to demonstrate the flavor and wonder of your server. It would include something of my Hypermod idea to allow easy linking to Foundation or The Hub or The Nexus or whatever we call the super server...

This would be a "lobby" or "landing page" and allow admins to promote their servers and retain control of that promotion, rather than leaving it in the hands of possibly inconsistent management :-P

This would require:

• Mod-links be aware of whether a transition is player only or character-translate.
• Foundation be capable (nwnx option) of dynamically adding mod-links
• An easy to use interface for registering mod-links. Personally, I think it would be fantastic if the registry took place in a copy of the current Foundation in the toolset, where the admin could precisely place and configure his portal and accessories (perhaps adding a PvP portal to the Arena, or a social portal disguised as a tavern), then submit his registration. A reg app extracts out what he changed and the Foundation checks for conflict/inserts portal/(new area if necessary).

I think this is a worthwhile goal for the Foundation Options development :-)

<...that other people hear voices, too>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               OK... so I think it is worthwhile to give you all an update.

Rolo, gave me a computer today that should be able to run Ubuntu (linux). I'm learning how to install Ubuntu on it. Then I am going to figure out how to install nwserver and nwnx. This will take me some time. But once I get it together, I'll be launching into work on the character translator.

If I have to make a choice as to which server environment I am targeting I am going to choose linux. Is there anyone out there that can pick it up for windows?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               I use Ubuntu also. If you need some help, I can give you an assist.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               I appreciate the offer. Let me have at it once more this weekend before I bother you for specific help on getting Ubuntu running.

With regards to Foundation, the recent conversation about CEP has gotten under my skin. The lesson I take away from it is that while initiatives like Foundation (or CEP) need not start out as completely transparent and open to the community, these projects should be managed in a transparent manner once they've gotten off the ground. In the long run, the project should be responsive to its users, rather than the users responsive to the project.

My motivation for Foundation is to give NWN a shot in the arm. To do this we need to have a strong vision, and implement it well. I think the vision at this point is primarily to enable PWs to link to one another with minimal fuss, and secondarily to create a base for any PW team to build their own vision on top of.

If this is successful, then I would prefer that Foundation at that point become an open-source project. The reason is that successful projects create inertia. This inertia is great when the project has a forward trajectory, but it is a major problem when they decay. So if there is little barrier to the community taking over, and reshaping the project to their desires, it is all the better in my mind.

• So I think we should have most discussion here rather than on our own website. At the least we must have a presence where the community is. When I dig in again, I'll make a group for us.
• Documentation will be important. I like doing this with a Wiki so that anyone can maintain this. Our website will be good for this, I think. I'd like to talk with acomputerdood about it as he migrated the NWNLexicon to a wiki, and might have some wisdom to share.
• In addition to solving the character translation problem, I'd like to come to terms with what common custom content will be required.  For example the skills.2da, will that need to be fixed?  Any other 2das that will need to be similar across all PWs? I'm looking at 2das that affect the characters, and whether certain things like skills could make PWs impossible to link.
• Distribution: how to do this in an open source manner without sacrificing stability?

               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 15 février 2013 - 07:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <opening a door...>

Allow me to (politely!) disagree on one thing. I do agree community projects should be open-sourced and open-discussed, etc.  I love the wiki idea and am quite willing to work with that.

I also strongly encourage the establishment of a group here and sub-projects as they relate to Foundation.

However, I think certain discussions should be focused - primarily the dev discussions - and not discussed here. The direction of the project, yes. The public discussions about where we are and where we're going, yes.  

But technical dialogue related specifically to the structure and the content should be private to the extent that people should register their interest and the discussions moderated so as to *not* get side-tracked, "derailed" or cluttered with OT pun wars (*cough* guilty *cough*).

I don't mean to make them private and secret, but to keep them on target, with only people interested and invested in promoting the project, one way or another, participating. I have no problem at all about discussing options, goals, challenges here. But I'd like to keep the nuts and bolts separate.

<...too many>